[NT] Christian NTJs?

[Reflection]

Yes, religious faith is one of the subjects where a clear difference between INTPs and INTJs is shown. Many of the former will simply refuse to take a stand on a matter they perceive to be on the fringes of what rational inquiry can answer for them.

Atheist INTJ reporting in, by the way.

Refusing to take a stand, agnostic INTP here.

 

[Lark]

I'm an ENTJ, I've no doubt about the NTJ for the most part altough I do waver between I and E (or maybe E's just get socially exhausted too).

I have to say that up until relatively lately I've been very certain in my beliefs, really because it wasnt simply a belief in an abstract or removed sense but was a lived experience, with some reading and investigation (I'm not really content with the just "is", I tend to ask "why" or "how" and continually search) I've lost that certainty and I've tried to recover it or understand it.

I'm less incline to strongly experience, or rather strongly trust feeling, and I know a lot of religious people do, many of the mystical or spiritual exercises that interest me seem to accentuate this or involve ordeals which place people in a feelings dominant or intellect impaired, paralysed or pressurised somehow if you know what I mean.

In some ways that's disappointing for me, I'm still reading and seriously considering the literature in this respect (and not just Christian although I revise most of what I find from other cultures in accordance with the Christian insights I have) but I dont tend to find any rationalists which are that interested in God or an afterlife and spirituality besides challenging or condemning or breaking down the convictions of others.

 

[Oddly Refined]

My sister is a Christian INTJ.

 

[neptunesnet]

In terms of intellectual depth, here's an interview with Rene Girard - a very prominent French Christian intellectual: [video]

I knew already of the aesthetic differences. The architecture of European churches to me is more awe-inspiring and glorious while ours generally tend to be bland, constructed with more plain materials, remnants of our Puritan roots.

That video of Girard was wonderful. The full interview is here.

I have to say that up until relatively lately I've been very certain in my beliefs, really because it wasnt simply a belief in an abstract or removed sense but was a lived experience, with some reading and investigation (I'm not really content with the just "is", I tend to ask "why" or "how" and continually search) I've lost that certainty and I've tried to recover it or understand it.

Do you know what's caused the change? What makes you less certain?

 

[Totenkindly]

My sister is a Christian INTJ.

UseHerName is pretty firmly Christian and INTJ, although she's not here much nowadays. But she's pretty heavily involved in the faith.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

Based purely on functionality I would say that NTJ's would'nt have problems believing in a god, it may not be the one everyone else believes in, but I'm sure they could easily construct something, Intj's more so, then entj's.

 

[Sniffles]

I knew already of the aesthetic differences. The architecture of European churches to me is more awe-inspiring and glorious while ours generally tend to be bland, constructed with more plain materials, remnants of our Puritan roots.

Well there are beautiful churches in America made in the European fashion in our major cities.

That video of Girard was wonderful. The full interview is here.

Well I figure a few minute excerpt would be more managable.

Although it's not like America hasn't produced it's own religious intellectuals. However since the 1960s, they're usually less known than before. Alvin Plantinga is probably the most prominent American religious scholar alive:
[youtube="oL5rykiekBs"]Prof. Plantinga[/youtube]

Getting back to topic, certainly religious argumentation like ^^^(or Girard's before) would seem to appeal more to NTJs.

 

[neptunesnet]

I'll echo the comments on Ni.

INTPs are more flexible in some ways but in terms of the Ti logic, I think it's more demanding.
Ti takes evidence and then sees where it goes regardless or what they WANT to believe, and won't budge extra just to fill in a picture.
Hence, the common agnostic view among INTPs, although you will find atheists and believers in there depending on their experiences.

INTJ's tend to just "see truth" and then spend time supporting it.
So their faith depends on their initial sight or the big "connect the dots" picture they see.
They will connect dots that an INTP will refuse to on principle.

Or maybe I'm wrong. Feedback is welcome.

Your thoughts on Ni in INTJs make sense to me. And seeing how there are more of them signing in than ENTJs at the moment I'd even be inclined to say you're totally right, which is giving me another thread idea...

 

[Totenkindly]

Although it's not like America hasn't produced it's own religious intellectuals. However since the 1960s, they're usually less known than before. Alvin Plantinga is probably one of the more prominent American religious scholars alive:

I did not bring up Plantinga because I didn't think he was an INTJ. (He seemed more INTP.) But I'm not sure.

He's definitely a prominent name.

I have to say that up until relatively lately I've been very certain in my beliefs, really because it wasnt simply a belief in an abstract or removed sense but was a lived experience, with some reading and investigation (I'm not really content with the just "is", I tend to ask "why" or "how" and continually search) I've lost that certainty and I've tried to recover it or understand it.

So why the crash? What maintained your beliefs for so long, and what resulted in you no longer being able to maintain them?

I'm less incline to strongly experience, or rather strongly trust feeling, and I know a lot of religious people do, many of the mystical or spiritual exercises that interest me seem to accentuate this or involve ordeals which place people in a feelings dominant or intellect impaired, paralysed or pressurised somehow if you know what I mean.

I'm wary of emotions, but at the same time, human beings are holistic creatures. Anything that encompasses the reality of what a human being is has to include thinking, feeling, conviction, perception, and a host of things.

From my own experience, distrust of emotion is caused by reliance on logic. Logic cannot process emotion fully or understand it. So emotion can seem faulty, unpredictable, and untrustworthy. But it's still part of what people are, so somehow it must be included in the mix.

Lauren Slater included an interesting chapter in her book "Skinner's Box," which are essays about various large conjectures within the psychology movement (such Skinner's behavioral approach, or Milgram's "torture" experiment back in the 60's). One chapter involves her conversation with a woman whose coma-ridden daughter seemed to be able to "heal the sick" who came and laid hands on her. It's an interesting exploration of the issues between faith and tangible reality -- especially in highlighting the ambiguity of what is occurring and even how the mother maintains her faith in light of ambiguous facts.

There are no easy reconciliations between logic and emotion/faith/passion, but it still has to be explored, imo. We have to be willing to live in the ambiguous and indecipherable intersect between the two, as part of being human.

I dont tend to find any rationalists which are that interested in God or an afterlife and spirituality besides challenging or condemning or breaking down the convictions of others.

Rationalists deconstruct by nature; it's the instinctive approach.
You might as well expect a surgeon not to think about cutting things.

The next step is for a rationalist to embrace the flip side of the coin -- that every act of destruction is an act permitting creation, and to move toward that frightening spot.

 

[Sniffles]

I did not bring up Plantinga because I didn't think he was an INTJ. (He seemed more INTP.) But I'm not sure.

He's definitely a prominent name.

Well I mostly brought him up in regards to the issue of the intellectual tradition of Christianity, and just made a passing remark of how such a form of argumentation would seem to be appeal to NTJs. I didn't mean to imply he actually is INTJ.

 

[Totenkindly]

Well I mostly brought him up in regards to the issue of the intellectual tradition of Christianity, and just made a passing remark of how such a form of argumentation would seem to be appeal to NTJs. I didn't mean to imply he actually is INTJ.

Okay, that's fine. I was just clarifying because of the thread subject line.

I've read at least one paper by him (I think it included the details of his own spiritual/philosophical journey) but can't remember the details right now, it was probably five years ago.

Department of Philosophy // University of Notre Dame
Plantingapage

 

[Coriolis]

I am spiritual and religious, but not Christian.

 

[neptunesnet]

I am spiritual and religious, but not Christian.

Mmkay. What religion?

 

[Vie]

I was raised Roman Catholic and have a father and grandmother who are heavily influenced by religion. I care much about them and their opinion of me, so I think I believe in the Catholic Church (around them) as not to upset them, or worse disappoint them.

I believe in a higher power deep, deep, deep, deep down I think. I heard somewhere once that you can't blame God and not believe in him at the same time -- this struck me as true and I as I do my fair share of "Thank sweet baby Jesus!" and "WTF, GOD?!" moments, I feel as though I must believe. I find it comforting to believe in God and religion.

Though, I will say that I am often envious of those who are devout religious people who seem to have their lives all figured out, and if they don't, God will help them.

 

[Lark]

I knew already of the aesthetic differences. The architecture of European churches to me is more awe-inspiring and glorious while ours generally tend to be bland, constructed with more plain materials, remnants of our Puritan roots.

That video of Girard was wonderful. The full interview is here.



Do you know what's caused the change? What makes you less certain?

This is going to sound strange or implausible maybe, I have always understood religion in two ways, one its a creedo for this life, in that purpose it serves well and probably better than some alternatives, even if I where an agnostic or athiest I would think this, the other point is an experience, a personal relationship with a personal deity, the presence of God.

I think many people experience the former and not the later, so it becomes easy to dispense with religion or trade in or trade up like its a used car, in the main people who experience the later are mystics and the like.

I'd always thought that I was pretty lucky because by reason and feeling I knew there was a God and practiced living in their presence, it was a presence to me, something similar to a long term relationship or having a dear, distant relative who you're planning to move back with once college/university is finished. With this there was a lot of consolation and certainty, its the certainty that's the important part.

However I started to read Alexander Lowen, he's a psycho-analyst who features Julian Janes in one of his books, Janes explains how through neuroscience many spiritual experiences can be explained in psychological terms, its not exactly delusion in a prejorative sense but it could be in an objective sense.

Its perhaps something to do with how the argument is made because many of the other criticisms of religion, especially Dawkins, dont phase me at all, I've no problem with evolutionary or un-Godly or "abscence of a diety" theories of our and the universe's origins, I tend to perceive them as based on serious misapprehension and human, all too human, invented obsticles.

So I think that following this discovery I've had a few days in which I experienced the world as a different, dreadful, place, without the prospect of an afterlife or God (which in some ways is the greater deal, my own personal spiritually doesnt conceptualise an afterlife as a place teaming with people, the idea of some kind of celestial library has its appeal sometimes but its really about God, not a reinvention or sembalence of life on earth). It was a little heart breaking.

The position I'm in now is one of considering that I'll not feel the same way I did before, once certainty's lost you dont get it back, although I dont feel convinced of alternative, athiestic or agnostic beliefs. I'm reading John of The Cross' Dark Night of The Soul, it seems to have some parallels.

 

[Lark]

I So why the crash? What maintained your beliefs for so long, and what resulted in you no longer being able to maintain them?

Its not that I can no longer maintain them, its that I have a suspiscion now that they are false, persisting in error, even where its a comforting, consoling or in some way constructive and progressive error is still error. Is it going to change my daily life, no, although living with doubt is personally different from living with certainty.

There are no easy reconciliations between logic and emotion/faith/passion, but it still has to be explored, imo. We have to be willing to live in the ambiguous and indecipherable intersect between the two, as part of being human.

True, true.

 

[corey_vann]

Christian ENTJ here. An INFP buddy of mine is convinced that Mark Driscoll, a pastor in Seattle, is one as well. I've also heard that Malcolm X and the Apostle Paul were ENTJs. He is also pretty sure that John Calvin was an INTJ. I've also wondered the type of Mohammad. From what I understand, he definitely had a natural leadership and strategic military ability, which seems XNTJ to me.

 

[Uytuun]

I'll echo the comments on Ni.

INTPs are more flexible in some ways but in terms of the Ti logic, I think it's more demanding.
Ti takes evidence and then sees where it goes regardless or what they WANT to believe, and won't budge extra just to fill in a picture.
Hence, the common agnostic view among INTPs, although you will find atheists and believers in there depending on their experiences.

INTJ's tend to just "see truth" and then spend time supporting it.
So their faith depends on their initial sight or the big "connect the dots" picture they see.
They will connect dots that an INTP will refuse to on principle.

I think you're right. Out of the two, INTJs (with Ni and Fi) are definitely the more spiritually inclined ones. The INTJ's reliance on the irrational is continually underestimated. Almost all INTJs I know have some form of a spiritual side to them, me included. Meaning and symbol are important to us, logic isn't in itself.

I consider myself agnostic, but at the same I'm really pretty open to the rites and symbols that come with religious/spiritual experiences (doesn't have to be Christian either)...it's soothing, it's part of how humans experience life...it's narrative. Just because meaning is created doesn't mean it is meaningless, I suppose. It's a way of connecting and altering experience. I dislike the church as an institution (which seems much more SJ and from what I know seems overwhelmingly Fe in the US) and don't follow dogma or rules.

 

[Coriolis]

Mmkay. What religion?

I don't belong to any church. I was raised Catholic, but abandoned that long ago. It seems my view of God has broadened to include many influences, principally the incorporation of the feminine aspect missing from so many "religions of the book", and the consideration of religious myths as exactly that: myths rather than fact. I take great interest in the common threads that run through most religions, as well as their differing expressions. I thus willingly discuss my spiritual beliefs, but hesitate to put labels on myself.

 

[coconut]

In terms of intellectual depth, here's an interview with Rene Girard - a very prominent French Christian intellectual:

He says, "Christianity destroys myth," but isn't it more like "Christianity is the true myth"?

BTW, I'm also a Christian INTJ.