[Fe] Fe

[Craft]

Emotion isn't the raw stuff of values?

Where does Fi and Ti originate from? Is this inherent judgement? Innate conscience?

And, if T detaches, how come it so often works in tandem with F?

Just a guess...

Te works with Fi because Te defines technical system and Fi defines intrapersonal value. Ti work with Fe because Ti defines technical value and Fe defines interpersonal system.

 

[Totenkindly]

This is very big to me.
"Biological feedback/maintenance loop ". I do not understand this.

Feelings are emotional states tied directly into body processes. Note how easily your emotions will swing around based on what your body is experiencing. Even a chemical imbalance can change what one is feeling and experiencing. Emotions thus are not abstract. It's commonly discussed how the E/I pair is tied into anxiety and/or stimulation occuring via how one's neural network is wired -- I's can't handle much stimulation because their nervous system is too sensitive, so they focus within/withdraw, and anxiety is often an emotion that accompanies that.

Maybe this needs to tie back into the Greek concept of separating mind from body from emotion. All of that is just a way of viewing the world, but it's not necessarily true. We seem to be more holistic in nature, we can't just look at ourselves as a mind. Emotions -> Body -> Mind -> Emotions and around and around we go.

I'm confused about the quotations. What is the definition of "make sense"? Doesn't "Feelings just are" make sense?

Feelings will often seem to be "illogical," and if someone asks you why you are feeling a certain way, sometimes you can't tell them. All you know is that you feel a certain way. People will often blame themselves for having certain emotions, which doesn't make sense either; we feel what we feel. How we respond to our feelings is what it under our control.

Also how is making sense related to cognitive function?

Judging functions try to make sense of Perceptions and stimulation/input. Thus, both a T and an F are trying to "make sense" of feelings, and both might be misguided in that.

Does emotion = feeling?

"Feeling" in the MBTI means "values," not "emotion."
This is a typical point of confusion with people new to the system.

Emotions can correlate to certain values (they "validate" values) but are not equivalent to them.

Is this the only relationship emotion has on (F/T)? Don't we judge based ultimately on emotion? Doesn't emotion define value? Is pain emotion? Why do we value survival? Shouldn't that imply that emotion is in (F/T)?

No. If you used emotion to make all your decisions, you would not need T or F to make your decisions. Emotions are just another line of data input that T or F uses to judge things. If an emotion is strong enough, you might CHOOSE to let it control your actions... but you don't have to. People all the time choose to ignore strong emotions if they feel they need to do so; emotions are not in charge unless the will allows them to be.

Emotion isn't the raw stuff of values?

Is it?

Maybe we should define "emotion."
Would a sense of "balance/rightness" be considered an emotion?
If not, what would it be, then?

And, if T detaches, how come it so often works in tandem with F?

As opposed to not working in tandem with S or N? I'm a little lost here....

 

[Poki]

I see.




This is very big to me.

"Biological feedback/maintenance loop ". I do not understand this.


I'm confused about the quotations. What is the definition of "make sense"? Doesn't "Feelings just are" make sense?

Also how is making sense related to cognitive function?



Does emotion = feeling?

Is this the only relationship emotion has on (F/T)? Don't we judge based ultimately on emotion? Doesn't emotion define value? Is pain emotion? Why do we value survival? Shouldn't that imply that emotion is in (F/T)?

Emotions does partly equal feeling, but not in the whole. Depending on the meaning of the word feeling and the meaning of the word emotion they can overlap to a great degree. To me feeling is more concrete and more real, emotion seems to be more derived. A simple feeling can become huge emotionally.

Values are defined by many things. Feeling can derive a value, but emotions tend to derive "values" in others. I dont want anyone to feel this way and when XYZ happens it causes this feeling so I will not do it to anyone. Its a strong value based on feeling. In regard to emotions, when I display this emotion it creates a feeling in someone else...hence can drive a value within that person based on feeling judgement. This feeling judgement is then "universalized" and applied as a whole to the world and become a value.

Atleast my current thought of it.

 

[Craft]

Feelings are emotional states tied directly into body processes. Note how easily your emotions will swing around based on what your body is experiencing. Even a chemical imbalance can change what one is feeling and experiencing. Emotions thus are not abstract. It's commonly discussed how the E/I pair is tied into anxiety and/or stimulation occuring via how one's neural network is wired -- I's can't handle much stimulation because their nervous system is too sensitive, so they focus within/withdraw, and anxiety is often an emotion that accompanies that.

Feelings - emotional states tied directly into body process. (Sensation?)

Maybe this needs to tie back into the Greek concept of separating mind from body from emotion. All of that is just a way of viewing the world, but it's not necessarily true. We seem to be more holistic in nature, we can't just look at ourselves as a mind. Emotions -> Body -> Mind -> Emotions and around and around we go.

.....

Feelings will often seem to be "illogical," and if someone asks you why you are feeling a certain way, sometimes you can't tell them. All you know is that you feel a certain way. People will often blame themselves for having certain emotions, which doesn't make sense either; we feel what we feel. How we respond to our feelings is what it under our control.

And F's will be good at responding to feelings than T's?

Judging functions try to make sense of Perceptions and stimulation/input. Thus, both a T and an F are trying to "make sense" of feelings, and both might be misguided in that.

But an F will be better? If so, why?

"Feeling" in the MBTI means "values," not "emotion."
This is a typical point of confusion with people new to the system.

Feeling = values.
Thinking = ???

No. If you used emotion to make all your decisions, you would not need T or F to make your decisions. Emotions are just another line of data input that T or F uses to judge things. If an emotion is strong enough, you might CHOOSE to let it control your actions... but you don't have to. People all the time choose to ignore strong emotions if they feel they need to do so; emotions are not in charge unless the will allows them to be.

So what do you use to judge things? Ti or Fi? Where did Ti or Fi come from?

Emotions does partly equal feeling, but not in the whole. Depending on the meaning of the word feeling and the meaning of the word emotion they can overlap to a great degree. To me feeling is more concrete and more real, emotion seems to be more derived. A simple feeling can become huge emotionally.

I see.

Values are defined by many things. Feeling can derive a value, but emotions tend to derive "values" in others.

SO:

Values
-Emotions
--Feelings ?

I dont want anyone to feel this way and when XYZ happens it causes this feeling so I will not do it to anyone. Its a strong value based on feeling. In regard to emotions, when I display this emotion it creates a feeling in someone else...hence can drive a value within that person based on feeling judgement. This feeling judgement is then "universalized" and applied as a whole to the world and become a value.

Atleast my current thought of it.

I think I understand it now.

---Feeling Judgements rely on values.

Values rely on certain "feelings" and/or experiences.

Emotion is a feeling and/or experience.

There are many "values"(which are based on feelings(which could be emotion)).

Values conflict. "I am tired vs. I have to do my work." The feeling of fatigue versus the feeling of success (or accomplishment).

----Thinking Judgements rely on logic.

Logic relies on correction.



-----------

So when we ask ourselves what we value, do we go to Feeling Functions?

 

[Poki]

Feelings - emotional states tied directly into body process. (Sensation?)





.....


And F's will be good at responding to feelings than T's?




But an F will be better? If so, why?




Feeling = values.
Thinking = ???






So what do you use to judge things? Ti or Fi? Where did Ti or Fi come from?





I see.


SO:

Values
-Emotions
--Feelings ?



I think I understand it now.

---Feeling Judgements rely on values.

Values rely on certain "feelings" and/or experiences.

Emotion is a feeling and/or experience.

There are many "values"(which are based on feelings(which could be emotion)).

Values conflict. "I am tired vs. I have to do my work." The feeling of fatigue versus the feeling of success (or accomplishment).

----Thinking Judgements rely on logic.

Logic relies on correction.



-----------

So when we ask ourselves what we value, do we go to Feeling Functions?

I dont generally ask myself what I value. I struggle with what I value. I think that Fe values what Fe does and it values that in others. But Fe doesnt seem to value things...it seems to value actions, attempts, effort, etc. and if you try to make that into concrete things or even concepts it becomes very context based, very dynamic and is no longer consistant and easily defined.

Feelings - emotional states tied directly into body process. (Sensation?)

Heart attack...Butterflies...Headaches...Chest pain from hurt...the list can go on. If you become sensitive to sensations or worry about it could cause a sensation/feeling loop.

 

[Orangey]

I think my inferior Fe (in tandem with other functions, of course) only functions to make me aware of social dynamics while rendering me incapable of acting on this awareness.

 

[Craft]

I'd say interpersonal.

Cognitive Functions are intuitive processes, correct?

So Fe is intuitive understanding?

What function do you use when you "think about social dynamics"? Doesn't that proceed to Ti?

Fe for younger INTPs will most likely exhibit itself negatively in the majority of situations. This means that they can:

• Be hypersensitive to the social and emotional demands of the people around them.
  
• Feel "under attack" by those demands.
  
• Be oblivious to those demands.
  
• Be unsure of how to interpret and incorporate those demands into their Ti worldview. They'll label certain overtures as "shallow and pointless" or when trying to help another, offer some sort of universal, impersonal "truth" and then be frustrated that it wasn't what that person was looking for.

If you figure it out, let me know, because I still suck balls.

Can't you simply Ti this negativity? Rationalize it?

 

[Lucky_Rabbit]

I dont understand what the hell ur talking about

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

Cognitive Functions are intuitive processes, correct?

So Fe is intuitive understanding?

What function do you use when you "think about social dynamics"? Doesn't that proceed to Ti?


Can't you simply Ti this negativity? Rationalize it?

I don't know if 'proceed' is the best way to describe this, as Ti is usually an inescapable function. I would say that Ti examines whatever Fe is 'sensing' and then acts or does not act accordingly.

 

[Craft]

I dont understand what the hell ur talking about

Pardon me(if the reply was to mine), it's my inaccurate wording. Please ask what needs to be clarified.

I don't know if 'proceed' is the best way to describe this, as Ti is usually an inescapable function. I would say that Ti examines whatever Fe is 'sensing' and then acts or does not act accordingly.

I see. Is Fe also an "inescapable function"? Does Fe examine Ti as well? Can't Ti judge social dynamics or must it really be Fe?

"I know human behavior and rituals therefore, I will perform accordingly for my goals."

Is Fe "thinking"? Is Ti also "thinking"? Does "Thinking" compose of all functions and can be divided into Information vs. Judgment?

Is Fe and Ti thinking about judgements? or is it more instinctual and never a conscious process?

 

[proteanmix]

Cognitive Functions are intuitive processes, correct?

Yeah, I'm going to have agree with the Rabbit. I'm not sure what you're asking.

So Fe is intuitive understanding?

Intuitive understanding of...? I'd say it's more like a predisposition towards or preoccupation with the interpersonal which may or may not lead to understanding.

What function do you use when you "think about social dynamics"? Doesn't that proceed to Ti?

Yes, I'm pretty sure I'm using Ti. I don't split up function usage, I think they all work in tandem with each other but at different levels much like this:

If you're asking me if I can isolate when exactly I'm using Ti, I'm going to have to think about if I can catch it when it's happening. I can't really enumerate any issues with Ti I have the way some IxTPs can with Fe.

 

[Kalach]

Re emotions being the raw stuff of values:

It seemed to me plausible to say that one literally doesn't generate values of any kind unless one at some point has some feelings, either consciously or unconsciously. Like, it seems obvious to me that I get wrapped up in being objective because I feel right if I do. (Textbook Fi in service of a more conscious thinking function--I feel right if I am allowed to use my thinking function in the way it was, seemingly, designed.) That for Ts the feeling is often the less conscious part of the package makes it seem it was the T function that produced the values. This misidentification of which function has the primary value generation role perhaps happens especially when young, when the F function is unruly and unconscious. When young, asserting the primacy of the T function actually brings some kind of stability or comfort and makes it seem that that's where the value lies.

If that process is what really happens, is it just for Fi/Te?


Re T and F working in tandem:

It's a semi-wild speculation on my part that "judgment" somehow never occurs without some control exercised by both T and F. There will of course be a definite conscious preference for one side over the other, and even a conscious requirement that one side be definitively ignored. But in the wider scheme of cognitive things, it won't happen that way, and the ignored side will still play some part.

This may just be an intuition prompted by getting older and by (seemingly obviously) having a function order that already puts T and F close together.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

I would say that most functions are inescapable because they are necessary in logical thinking. To say that Fe 'thinks' rings true because Fe is a conscious function. I don't believe that it acts subconsciously because social graces were manufactured (created as a result of society itself). So I would say that Ti hides behind Fe. A face of Ti. I think that's a reasonable division Perceiveing/ Judging. These are what compose thinking.