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[NT] NT's, you are summoned yet again.

Katsuni

Priestess Of Syrinx
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Messages
1,238
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
3w4?
Wait, I was in the middle of som---


*Materializes into the rune etched circle, candles flickering at her arrival*

Yeah, thanks. Because summoning is friendly and timely, and doesn't make me feel like I want to puke. Srsly.

Anyway...

I don't think it's ever a "GOOD" idea to decide with emotions or values overriding reason. If yeur values override reason, then they aren't reasonable and shouldn't exist. That is yeur #1 key defining realization that yeur values SUCK, and that yeu should change yeur mind in the first place.

Yes, I get emotional at times, and yes, I can let it affect my work. I don't care for this, but it happens.

Fact is though, at these times, I know it's wrong. Massive stress, fear, or other strong emotional ties can drag me away from a reasoned, thought out way of doing things, and it pretty much consistently and always turns out BAD.

Emotional decisions are whot makes my BF go ballistic on people and refuse to talk to them anymore for something he imagined that doesn't even exist. Value based decisions are whot make people bomb abortion clinics, or carbomb civilians, or attack the WTC. This is whot happens when yeu aren't thinking with yeur head clearly, and are going off OPINION ALONE, and enforcing that opinion on everyone else, regardless of whether they agree or not.

Fact is, emotional/value based reasoning, is flawed to the core. If yeu have to leave reasoning behind, then yeu have already admitted that whot yeu are doing isn't correct.

Occasionally there are leaps of faith. Whot most people fail to realize, is that most of these 'leaps of faith', involve that person plummeting to their doom. Yeu don't hear about the thousands who die or get stuck in terrible situations needlessly, because they went with their emotions or values; yeu only hear about the ones who beat the odds, which are rare.

Or, specifically, yeu hear about the ones who were emotion based all the time, yeu just ignore them.

The guy who goes back into the burning house for his dog and they both die. The overly zealous religious nut who kills someone in the name of her values. The politician who commits political suicide by saying he thinks women and blacks shouldn't be allowed to vote.

These are the faces of yeur emotional and value based decisions. Savour them, and don't become them.
 

onemoretime

Dreaming the life
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Messages
4,455
MBTI Type
3h50
That's more of a stretch.

I'll grant you "fuzzy logic" but that's it -- they are not necessarily consistent between individuals nor predictable, they are partially related but not completely, and people can create emotional states that might not be useful to their success, leading to distorted logic.

This is why we make a distinction in MBTI between Feeling values and emotions. They actually are somewhat connected but not identical.

That's only because we, the observers, often don't know the exact stimulus, nor the exact guiding principles and priorities, that lead to a given emotional response. Often, the person emoting doesn't consciously know these things. This makes finding an external logic difficult.
 

Resonance

Energizer Bunny
Joined
May 18, 2010
Messages
740
MBTI Type
INfj
Enneagram
6w5
That's only because we, the observers, often don't know the exact stimulus, nor the exact guiding principles and priorities, that lead to a given emotional response. Often, the person emoting doesn't consciously know these things. This makes finding an external logic difficult.

It's much more efficient to think of it as 'fuzzy logic' - neural networks, hormone levels, probabilities, statistics.

Sure, it's probably theoretically possible to describe it in a complete logical system accounting for every particle in the body and the environment, but modeling that would be physically impossible.
 
O

Oberon

Guest
Emotion can sometimes act as a sanity check on a rational decision. Sometimes a perfectly rational decision can be incorrect due to one or more faulty premises; if you find that you are not emotionally at peace with a decision, that's a signal that you may need to re-examine your foundational assumptions.
 

Aleksei

Yeah, I can fly.
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Messages
3,626
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
When does making decisions with emotions fit better than reason in the eyes of NT's, if at all?
Stress. It makes them fall back to their lower functions.

Mind you though, there are cases of NTs that are quite emotional or idealistic -- particularly ENTPs and INTJs (tertiary Fe and Fi, respectively). INTJs I'd actually say are the most likely of all T types to be emotional.
 

JocktheMotie

Habitual Fi LineStepper
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
8,491
Stress. It makes them fall back to their lower functions.

Stress will make them do it, but I don't know if they'd agree it's a better "fit" for that situation. If anything, the stress makes it more likely that the expression of emotion is going to be negative than if they were not stressed.
 

Ghost of the dead horse

filling some space
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
3,553
MBTI Type
ENTJ
When does making decisions with emotions fit better than reason in the eyes of NT's, if at all?
I usually prioritize my tasks on a mostly rational basis, but I find it great to alter the order a little to consider my whims and feelings of the moment. Often the feeling will guide me towards a task I'll be more motivated to do, for a reason or another.

Feelings affect my quality of life, so I factor them in my decision-making, where appropriate. Not many of my decisions are much based on feelings, though.
 

teslashock

Geolectric
Joined
Oct 27, 2009
Messages
1,690
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w6
When does making decisions with emotions fit better than reason in the eyes of NT's, if at all?

Am I the only NT that hates these kinds of questions?

I don't really separate emotions and logic/reason. I realize that emotions and logic go hand-in-hand and that the two join together to help me make all of my decisions. Even though "emotions" go into my decision-making process, I still believe that my decisions are rational and logical.

Basically, I don't equate emotions with a lack of logic.
 

onemoretime

Dreaming the life
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Messages
4,455
MBTI Type
3h50
It's much more efficient to think of it as 'fuzzy logic' - neural networks, hormone levels, probabilities, statistics.

Sure, it's probably theoretically possible to describe it in a complete logical system accounting for every particle in the body and the environment, but modeling that would be physically impossible.

The funny thing is that most objective reality is this way, too - it's just that the variances are so small and infrequent that our brains simply disregard them. Of course, it becomes a huge issue when we're trying to tie quantum and relativistic physics together.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I see reason as a process, and emotions as one of the many inputs to that process; in other words, a form of data. We should no more neglect emotional data than other data, lest our decision be flawed. That being said, emotional data should not automatically be given more weight than other data. All must be assessed on their own merits.

Several people have mentioned using emotions as a sort of "sanity check" on a decision, or "listening to your heart" if it seems uncomfortable with an apparently rational decision. This sounds less like emotion than intuition to me. If I am uncomfortable with a rational decision, or I just don't seem to be able to reach one, my intuition often points me in the right direction. It allows me to fill in the blanks and see what reason alone cannot yet show me, perhaps because I have incomplete or faulty information, or I am looking at things from the wrong perspective.

As for values, values-based reasoning isn't inherently flawed. Individual views on abortion aside, the abortion clinic example is a good illustration. Many people have as a value that abortion should be prevented. Some of these people try to bomb clinics and harrass patients. Others promote access to birth control or volunteer with organizations that help women with crisis pregnancies. Both are acting on their values, but the actions of the second group will prevent more abortions than those of the first, and thus have a better basis in reason.

Values are inputs to the decision-making process, like emotions. Values tell us "why" something should be done, and what is important to us. Note that reason can be used in determining values, with other even more fundamental values as inputs to that process.
 
T

ThatGirl

Guest
Even when I have made an emotional decision I chose to do so logically. Knowing that the cost vs benefit factor was in favor of an emotional more so than a logical outcome.

Keeping in mind the final goal, and weaving between logic an emotion is something that comes naturally to me. I cannot recall a time I have ever gone against that.
 

Nescio

New member
Joined
Dec 11, 2009
Messages
141
MBTI Type
ENTP
well when you're weighing options... its somthing like a tiebreaker.
when logic brings your options down to a stalemate... its either based on whim or by flipping a coin.
 
T

ThatGirl

Guest
well when you're weighing options... its somthing like a tiebreaker.
when logic brings your options down to a stalemate... its either based on whim or by flipping a coin.

Not necessarily.
 
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