[MBTI General] ENFJ and ENTJ - two bosses?

[Ghost of the dead horse]

I've came to associate ENTJ with being (or aspiring to be) some kind of a boss - not necessarily in the literal meaning, tho. ENFJ's I've came to associate with therapeutic behaviour, or being (or aspiring to be) a social leader.

Now I'm thinking that from a personality theory standpoint, the two types should be more similar than I've previously thought. For the other, Te Ni combination makes them eager to put their plans into practice. These projects tend to use and influence a lot of people. Should I take it that for the other, Fe Ni makes them eager to put their ideas and values into practice, and to use and influence people in a similar way?

I've thought that ENTJ plays the leading game part for fun, part for personal ambitions and part because of altruism. New projects needs to be done, in order to increase the GDP, the flow of money, to make everyone richer (in a literal sense). They tend to sell their ideas by showing how beneficial they are, tho as any marketing speak, it may or may not be accurate. They play the game by winning people on their side and organizing them.

Should I think the same about ENFJ? If so, then I'd think they drive the social change part for fun, part for personal ambitions and part because of altruism. New social order needs to be adopted, in order to develop just and aesthetic world, to make everyone richer (in a figurative sense). They tend to sell their ideas by showing how desirable they are, tho as any marketing speak, it may or may not be accurate. They play the game by winning people on their side and empowering them.

Comments? I've self-identified as both types at some point of my life, tho I may not know everything about them. I tried to give them fair treatment, and my apologies if I failed.

 

[Wandering]

For the other, Te Ni combination makes them eager to put their plans into practice. These projects tend to use and influence a lot of people. Should I take it that for the other, Fe Ni makes them eager to put their ideas and values into practice, and to use and influence people in a similar way?

Not really. For the ENTJ, I agree with you, the projects are what matters, and they'll influence people to get the projects done. But for the ENFJ, the people are what matters, and they'll influence the projects to accomodate the people.

Should I think the same about ENFJ? If so, then I'd think they drive the social change part for fun, part for personal ambitions and part because of altruism. New social order needs to be adopted, in order to develop just and aesthetic world, to make everyone richer (in a figurative sense). They tend to sell their ideas by showing how desirable they are, tho as any marketing speak, it may or may not be accurate. They play the game by winning people on their side and empowering them.

Again, you need to exchange the position of people and actions. For ENFJs, the people are the motive, not the tool. ENFJs start with "there are people who are not happy", and only then do they start wondering what the reason is for this unhappiness and how it could be fixed. Social change is not the goal, it's only the means to the real end, which is to make specific people happier. Empowering people is the whole point of the game, not just one of the means ENFJs use in the game.

JMO, of course.

 

[wildcat]

I've came to associate ENTJ with being (or aspiring to be) some kind of a boss - not necessarily in the literal meaning, tho. ENFJ's I've came to associate with therapeutic behaviour, or being (or aspiring to be) a social leader.

Now I'm thinking that from a personality theory standpoint, the two types should be more similar than I've previously thought. For the other, Te Ni combination makes them eager to put their plans into practice. These projects tend to use and influence a lot of people. Should I take it that for the other, Fe Ni makes them eager to put their ideas and values into practice, and to use and influence people in a similar way?

I've thought that ENTJ plays the leading game part for fun, part for personal ambitions and part because of altruism. New projects needs to be done, in order to increase the GDP, the flow of money, to make everyone richer (in a literal sense). They tend to sell their ideas by showing how beneficial they are, tho as any marketing speak, it may or may not be accurate. They play the game by winning people on their side and organizing them.

Should I think the same about ENFJ? If so, then I'd think they drive the social change part for fun, part for personal ambitions and part because of altruism. New social order needs to be adopted, in order to develop just and aesthetic world, to make everyone richer (in a figurative sense). They tend to sell their ideas by showing how desirable they are, tho as any marketing speak, it may or may not be accurate. They play the game by winning people on their side and empowering them.

Comments? I've self-identified as both types at some point of my life, tho I may not know everything about them. I tried to give them fair treatment, and my apologies if I failed.

Leave my cats alone.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

But for the ENFJ, the people are what matters, and they'll influence the projects to accomodate the people.

That's interesting. I'll have to think it from that viewpoint.

Again, you need to exchange the position of people and actions. For ENFJs, the people are the motive, not the tool.
--
Social change is not the goal, it's only the means to the real end, which is to make specific people happier. Empowering people is the whole point of the game, not just one of the means ENFJs use in the game.

How about this refined theory, that ENFJ do differentiate between groups of people, so that some people may be the goal whereas others serve as tools. This is not to mean that the "tool" people would get abused or anything. From my point of view, that's just human engineering. It isn't right or wrong per se, it all depends. and.. I'm so fond of engineering

 

[Wandering]

How about this refined theory, that ENFJ do differentiate between groups of people, so that some people may be the goal whereas others serve as tools.

Hmm... No, not really, sorry Healthy ENFJs just don't use people as tools. When the needs of different groups collide, an ENFJ will try and find the best solution for *everyone at once*. People and their needs are paramount for ENFJs, so the very concept of using people as tools is bound to repulse them (until/unless they get seriously pissed with someone or a specific group, but then we enter the shadow realm and we're not talking of healthy ENFJs anymore). Modifying programs or even trashing entire projects, yes, that's something they would have no problem doing if they saw a human need to do that. But deliberately using someone to achieve a goal, no, that's just not in their nature.

This is not to mean that the "tool" people would get abused or anything. From my point of view, that's just human engineering. It isn't right or wrong per se, it all depends. and.. I'm so fond of engineering

Well, let's just say that I don't think you're an ENFJ then

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

When the needs of different groups collide, an ENFJ will try and find the best solution for *everyone at once*.

Modifying programs or even trashing entire projects, yes, that's something they would have no problem doing if they saw a human need to do that. But deliberately using someone to achieve a goal, no, that's just not in their nature.

Perhaps this is the source of my perception. Some people, like me, invest personally in impersonal projects (and property). But we know that people can be affected indirectly, through their work, what they own, their children, their groups, etc.. this kind of indirect influence doesn't really go unseen by people who have invested of said groups, work, projects etc.

Could it be that ENFJ don't appreciate the personal attachment and work that went into an impersonal task?

But perhaps you are right, that would make ENFJ's and ENTJ's styles more parallel to each other. Projects can be useful for people, and people can be useful for projects. ENxJ's have a different priority to what they want to benefit directly, what they want to benefit indirectly, and what they want to use as a tool.

I think that people and the impersonal issues are in agreement with each other in most of the big projects. Hurt one, hurt another.

But if this is the case, then I'm not willing to say that these "projects" or impersonal work would be any more "evil" than being a people's person. Even the most hard-core people's person needs and cares for material things to sustain their way of life.

Well, let's just say that I don't think you're an ENFJ then

No, I'm not

 

[FDG]

I'm not sure. I've never really been a leader, I'm just a very enthousiastic person that sometimes has good ideas and so people might like me and try to put them into practice but I don't go my way to influence them by any means. I like to be free alone under the sun and if somebody believes that what I do to achieve this is somethign they like too, he-she can tag along...this is my philosophy in life.

 

[Wandering]

Could it be that ENFJ don't appreciate the personal attachment and work that went into an impersonal task?

I think they do. But then, which type wouldn't? I think everybody appreciates the level of commitment that goes into accomplishing a task, and understands that one may be attached to a task they have performed. But this appreciation and understanding have a different importance for the different types. For some types, they are of paramount importance, while for some others, they are more like "it's nice and great and cool, but it's not what life is about, you know?" And ENFJs would squarely fall into the second category. They definitely wouldn't get attached to an impersonal task the way a more Te-type would, and most importantly, they wouldn't get attached *for the same reasons*. Te is vastly subordinate to Fe in ENFJs, so they would get attached to an impersonal task if there is a human interest in it. Otherwise, they couldn't care less about it. If someone else wants to care about it, then it's all good and fine with the ENFJs... but only, of course, until this attachment threatens the well-being of someone else.

But perhaps you are right, that would make ENFJ's and ENTJ's styles more parallel to each other. Projects can be useful for people, and people can be useful for projects. ENxJ's have a different priority to what they want to benefit directly, what they want to benefit indirectly, and what they want to use as a tool.

Yup.

I think that people and the impersonal issues are in agreement with each other in most of the big projects. Hurt one, hurt another.

True in the global sense. But each type will focus on a specific angle.

But if this is the case, then I'm not willing to say that these "projects" or impersonal work would be any more "evil" than being a people's person.

Huh?? Of course not!!

 

[Domino]

If only I could channel my best friend's brain/psyche into typed words and contrast/compare them with my own. She's certainly like me and we find ourselves saying "Me too!" or "That's what I thought!" a lot. However, ENTJs utilize people and systems with an objectivity that I completely lack. When we finally have a parting of the ways, it's very shocking to us because we have so much in common.

Athena is every inch the impersonal (read: not cold or robotic) entrepreneur and I'm not at all. I circulate around people and she circulates around concepts. She needs her IDEAS and INNOVATIONS reinforced to feel good. For me, it's a need for intimate connection and personal values. She can be objective whereas I cannot. I'd think that an ENTJ would make a masterful boss or delegate because they can't be saddled with emotional ties or baggage.

We both have the same drive for competence however and a similar level of force that I prefer to regard as assertive rather than aggressive. We also like to work systems, make them work for us. Like our phones or computers or cars etc. We see them as something to be fully utilized.

 

[proteanmix]

I've came to associate ENTJ with being (or aspiring to be) some kind of a boss - not necessarily in the literal meaning, tho. ENFJ's I've came to associate with therapeutic behaviour, or being (or aspiring to be) a social leader.

Now I'm thinking that from a personality theory standpoint, the two types should be more similar than I've previously thought. For the other, Te Ni combination makes them eager to put their plans into practice. These projects tend to use and influence a lot of people. Should I take it that for the other, Fe Ni makes them eager to put their ideas and values into practice, and to use and influence people in a similar way?

I've thought that ENTJ plays the leading game part for fun, part for personal ambitions and part because of altruism. New projects needs to be done, in order to increase the GDP, the flow of money, to make everyone richer (in a literal sense). They tend to sell their ideas by showing how beneficial they are, tho as any marketing speak, it may or may not be accurate. They play the game by winning people on their side and organizing them.

Should I think the same about ENFJ? If so, then I'd think they drive the social change part for fun, part for personal ambitions and part because of altruism. New social order needs to be adopted, in order to develop just and aesthetic world, to make everyone richer (in a figurative sense). They tend to sell their ideas by showing how desirable they are, tho as any marketing speak, it may or may not be accurate. They play the game by winning people on their side and empowering them.

Comments? I've self-identified as both types at some point of my life, tho I may not know everything about them. I tried to give them fair treatment, and my apologies if I failed.

I have delusions of grandeur/megalomania of being some sort of social revolutionary. When my mother would tell us about the her activism during the Civil Rights Movement I would get very excited and fantasize about being a Black Panther or something.

As far as marketing my ideas of social harmony to people, I don't know how typical I am of other ENFJs in that I completely believe it's sometimes necessary to achieve ultimate peace by disharmonious means (I have defective Fe). Sometimes you need to show people your brass knuckles or threaten to put their head in a vice, but only as last resorts and once you've tried your darnedest to convince/cajoled people through peace. I don't know how much of it's altruism, I personally don't think I'm an altruistic person but I do have very strong ideas of the way things should be, how people should be treated and treat each other, and it upsets me when I don't see things going the way they should be.

Yes you are correct (at least for me) in stating that FeNi wants to put their plans into practical use. I really don't see the point in doing it if you're not going to do it. Tasks that don't touch some part of me are half-hearted and half-assed. Ideally, I'd be drawn in somehow to get my best results.

 

[marm]

I don't know ENFJs, but I can comment on observations based on my ENTJ dad.

I've came to associate ENTJ with being (or aspiring to be) some kind of a boss - not necessarily in the literal meaning, tho.

My dad has been in management before, but he didn't enjoy it. He doesn't want to be a boss because he doesn't want to be the bad guy when people need to be fired. He is drawn to leadership positions and people perceive him as a leader. He prides himself on his ability to lead, but he'd rather be the advisor or facilitator.

He is more of an idea man than a man of action. He is always actively accomplishing many things, but his endeavors always have to serve some idea or ideal. He is very goal-oriented, but his goals need to be meaningful. He is very capable of doing things just to get them done, but if it doesn't excite him he'll put it off until the last moment.

I've thought that ENTJ plays the leading game part for fun, part for personal ambitions and part because of altruism.

The ideal of altruism is very important to my dad and he likes to combine this with his personal ambitions. And he is only ambitious about things he enjoys meaning he isn't interested in ambition merely for the sake of gaining power.

New projects needs to be done, in order to increase the GDP, the flow of money, to make everyone richer (in a literal sense). They tend to sell their ideas by showing how beneficial they are, tho as any marketing speak, it may or may not be accurate. They play the game by winning people on their side and organizing them.

My dad is an amazing people person. What you say describes my dad perfectly.

My dad would never use people towards a goal or he wouldn't think of it that way. My dad is obsessed with an ethical outlook and highly values social order and norms. Almost everything for him is about how it serves others. He identifies with the groups and organizations he belongs to. He has become very religiously involved as he has aged.

 

[Maverick]

^Very good and realistic description of an ENTJ

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

However, ENTJs utilize people and systems with an objectivity that I completely lack.

Ok, you've (and you all) have given a convincing case that ENFJ's aren't the "human engineers". Perhaps that's more ENTJ's style.

Perhaps I shouldn't also be that surprised. I can compare that xNTP both have the extreme love for knowledge (core belief), even tho they use it bit differently. I've associated INFJ as a type who quietly desires the very best for everyone (core belief), so it's understandable to be ENFJ's core belief too.

Athena is every inch the impersonal (read: not cold or robotic) entrepreneur and I'm not at all. I circulate around people and she circulates around concepts. She needs her IDEAS and INNOVATIONS reinforced to feel good. For me, it's a need for intimate connection and personal values.

This sounds very sensible, and probably describes most people of your types as well.

We both have the same drive for competence however and a similar level of force that I prefer to regard as assertive rather than aggressive.

We also like to work systems, make them work for us. Like our phones or computers or cars etc. We see them as something to be fully utilized.

Hmm, so you cover both sides.. but it seems reasonable, I thought that one systemizer ENFJ boss I know in a software house was a rarity, but perhaps it isn't so. ENTJ's interests cover both people and systems, so why shouldn't ENFJ's!