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[MBTI General] What does a balance between J and P mean exactly?

fragrance

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What about ENTM? M is halfway between J and P, a very good balance, indeed. (Yeah I like stupid jokes)
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
Would a lazy J be considered a P? I think I know the answer, but I want to make sure. I would think so. Since the fact that J usually stands for judgement, which is interrupted as quick. Though if this 'J' makes for quickness, then how are some J's considered 'long distance' thinkers? Is it how the J and P view far off decisions?
 

Aleksei

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Would a lazy J be considered a P?
Hell no. Laziness doesn't make a Perceiver, even if many of us are lazy. :D

Since the fact that J usually stands for judgement, which is interrupted as quick. Though if this 'J' makes for quickness, then how are some J's considered 'long distance' thinkers?
Judgers (as defined by Jung's typology) tend to be very decisive, because they think in a narrower way than Perceivers -- which is also why they're "long distance" thinkers. NJs pick one spot in the future and head that way, whereas NPs get caught up in exploring a thousand different possibilities. it has to do with the difference in which Ne (theorist and inventive) and Ni (strategist and far-seeing) work.
 

thescientist

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Be careful about that -- if you're messy but your standard mode of operation is to plan ahead, then you're probably an NTJ, J/P is much more about how you think than about how you act.

Do you follow a straight, organized line of reasoning? Do you have a tendency to foresee how things are likely to be, and plan out accordingly? Are you good at organization and delegation? Do you have an intuitive grasp of whether something works or not, and/or how they can work better? If you answer yes to most of these questions, you're probably an NTJ.

NTPs use Extroverted Intuition (Ne), which is a function that plays with multiple possibilities, interconnections and patterns; and Introverted Thinking (Ti), which focuses on the details, specifics and intricacies of an idea, principle, system or object. NTJs on the other hand use Extroverted Thinking (Te), which manages, organizes and nitpicks for efficiency; and Introverted Intuition (Ni), which sees the future (or more concretely what the future most likely holds based on what information you already have) and plans accordingly.

If your principal mode of operation is strategy, foresight and planning then you probably use Te Ni rather Ne Ti, which makes you NTJ rather than NTP, even if you're messy. The difference between the two is significant.

Thanks for those descriptors. It really clarified some things for me and cemented my belief in my INTJ type. I can be a mess, but my thought process is very J. My strengths are definitely organization and efficiency when I get into that mode.

Also, over the years I've come to realize you can't plan ahead for everything. Having so many P friends, it's practically impossible to plan ANYTHING a week in advance with them. Every time I tried they just weren't able to give me an answer. So you can sort of say I just 'gave up' on the planning ahead and 'go with the flow' much more now. Although in my head, I am always thinking of the future and for the most part like to know what to expect if I'm going anywhere.

And yes to Te Ni :)
 

Zarathustra

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Oh, God.

Sim leaves and now Aleksei thinks he's the authority on functional analysis...

:doh:
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

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That makes sense. I'm pretty much set on my type now. Thanks! I think Aleksei did a very good job answering and explaining things.
 

Zarathustra

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Then NTJ it is.

Read these two descriptions: INTJ and INTP

Whichever one rings more true, that is likely the one you are.

You should listen to Tesla about the J/P testing issues: cuz she's right.

After that, it gets more complicated.

*

There are basically two schools of thought:

1. One says that NTs can use all four attitude functions (Ni, Te, Ne, Ti) to various degrees, with Ni and Te usually pairing together as NiTe (INTJ) or TeNi (ENTJ), and Ne and Ti pairing together as NeTi (ENTP) or TiNe (INTP). If you normally use some pairing of Ni and Te as your first two functions, then Ne and Ti would be the "shadow" functions of your first two functions; if you use some pairing of Ne and Ti as your first two functions, then Ni and Te would be the "shadow" functions of your first two functions. The greater degree to which you use your shadow functions, the more balanced your J/P would be.

2. The other says that using one's shadow functions almost never happens.

*

Neither side really has proof.

They bicker about this issue endlessly.

*

To review:

1. Listen to what Tesla said about the testing problem.
2. Read the INTJ and INTP descriptions from personalitypage.com
3. Listen to what Tesla said about learning more about the functions.
4. After all that, start coming up with your own theories about what J/P balance and shadow function usage. As an NTJ, you'll likely believe that shadow function usage is possible, as NTJs like to "open possibilities up" (Ni), whereas NTPs like to "close possibilities down" (Ti).

:wink:
 

Zarathustra

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Is he wrong? :)

On this particular issue, he's providing a decent description to a noob about NTJs and NTPs.

What I was referring to was the fact that, a couple weeks ago, I saw him make one of the most ridiculously inaccurate claims about functions that I've ever seen, which made me realize that he really doesn't have the strongest grasp of function theory.

Sadly, with Sim banned for two months, this site has lost one of its few rather authoritative (if abrasive) voices on the theory.
 

thescientist

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INTJ
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Read these two descriptions:

INTJ
INTP

Whichever one rings more true, that is likely the one you are.

You should listen to Tesla about the J/P testing issues: cuz she's right.

After that, it gets more complicated.

There are basically two schools of thought:

- One says that NTs can use all four attitude functions (Ni, Te, Ne, Ti) to various degrees, with Ni and Te usually pairing together as NiTe (INTJ) or TeNi (ENTJ), and Ne and Ti pairing together as NeTi (ENTP) or TiNe (INTP). If you normally use some pairing of Ni and Te as your first two functions, then Ne and Ti would be the "shadow" functions of your first two functions; if you use some pairing of Ne and Ti as your first two functions, then Ni and Te would be the "shadow" functions of your first two functions. The greater degree to which you use your shadow functions, the more balanced your J/P would be.

- The other says that using one's shadow functions almost never happens.

Neither side really has proof.

They bicker about this issue endlessly.

To review:

1. Listen to what Tesla said about the testing problem.
2. Read the INTJ and INTP descriptions from personalitypage.com
3. Listen to what Tesla said about learning more about the functions.
4. After all that, start coming up with your own theories about what J/P balance and shadow function usage. As an NTJ, you'll likely believe that shadow function usage is possible, as NTJs like to "open possibilities up" (Ni), whereas NTPs like to "close possibilities down" (Ti).

:wink:

Thanks for the info about the two points of view on the function pairings. Interesting.... I've still got a lot to learn about MBTI.

I had read those pages before. INTJ always resonated more with me.
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
They would say that the shadow functions are more subconscious? I'm getting convinced that I'm pretty INTJ. Though if we do believe that we can use the shadow functions, then I would say that I can use my Ti well and my Te, but I use Ne or more than Ni, which would also lead me being able to be NFP, which is plausible. Both Intp and Intj describe me well. I would say I'm more P just because I don't always concentrate on applying the knowledge that I gain.
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
I'll be back on later, to talk about this some more.
 
T

ThatGirl

Guest
People think I am a P a lot because they do not tend to see into my level of organization. I thought I was a P because I misunderstood the principals.

Now I think I am just a freakishly intelligent J, so that makes me look like a random P.


The creator of this thread asked about organization of the external world. Well this is exactly what made me confuse J with P. I thought J was like, "You should and will do A, B, C. Grrrrr or I am angry J!"

That isn't the case, half the time I could care less about what anyone does so long as it doesn't effect me. I am not the type to organize large groups of lemmings to do my bidding. That is inefficient for my purposes. I could do it myself in half the time and move on to the next thing with out worrying about liability. This doesn't mean I am not great at it when put in charge of a situation.

So here is what made me think I was Ne vs Te/Ni.

I tend to (even when off in my own little world) be aware of the dynamics that surround me. It is like my mind is connected to my world in string theory. I am always aware of how things are moving. Even if I am not paying attention to the concrete details, I am subconsciously processing the dynamic. This makes me hyper sensitive to things that get thrown off. A step out of place or a kink in the system. When that alarm is triggered in my mind, I can very quickly take action to fix it before most people even notice.

It is sort of like an infection, the sooner it is diagnosed the better. You quickly fix a lesser problem, than the one you would have been left with had it gone unseen and evolved into something greater. Very efficient, little problem, little effort, barely noticeable dynamic. Though essentially I always maintain a hand in the way things will play out, meaning I have a better understanding of the situation.

Now I originally thought this was Ne, because most people didn't recognize where I was getting my information. I appeared random at times, and this can lead to slightly idiosyncratic behavior, and a priority based level of chill. Like what most people would think is a big deal I would not.

Then I hung out with Ne people. Those are some crazy mother fuckers. Ne reminds me of in the movies where someone steps off a cliff right as a platform lands under their foot. Next step, new platform forms. They tend to live on the edge, jumping off segments of dynamics and landing on others.

Yeah totally not me.

Not sure if that made any sense in the P vs J explanation for you, but that is my understanding.
 

Zarathustra

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They would say that the shadow functions are more subconscious? I'm getting convinced that I'm pretty INTJ. Though if we do believe that we can use the shadow functions, then I would say that I can use my Ti well and my Te, but I use Ne or more than Ni, which would also lead me being able to be NFP, which is plausible. Both Intp and Intj describe me well. I would say I'm more P just because I don't always concentrate on applying the knowledge that I gain.

This is why you need to gain a better grasp of the functions, cuz, whatever the case may be with your ability to use shadow functions, you almost certainly will have one or two functions (depending on your balance of introversion and extroversion) that's more dominant than the others.

The more introverted you are, the more you will be using your dominant function (Ni -- if you're an INTJ) relative to your auxiliary function (Te -- once again, if you're an INTJ).

This could explain why you haven't been applying what you learn to accomplish real world goals (a trait commonly ascribed to Te).
 

Aleksei

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TG, you frankly seem Ne/Te to me, rather than Ni/Te, what you described sounds a lot like my own intuitive grasp of what works and what doesn't, and how to fix it; which stands in sharp contrast to Ne/Ti's insane random quirkiness. Are you likely to think in a strategic manner, have profound AH HA! moments, or see into the future?
 

Zarathustra

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In particular, the most important thing is to figure out what your dominant function is.

One INTJ on here, who's an extremely introverted INTJ who's dominant function usage is extremely dominant (his name is Kalach), has, channeling Jung, described the dominant function as being like a leather mask.

No matter what, it is always there, tightly wrapped around everything you see and do.

If you can figure out your dominant function, then you'll have narrowed your possible type down to just two out of the sixteen types.
 
T

ThatGirl

Guest
TG, you frankly seem Ne/Te to me, rather than Ni/Te, what you described sounds a lot like my own intuitive grasp of what works and what doesn't, and how to fix it; which stands in sharp contrast to Ne/Ti's insane random quirkiness. Are you likely to think in a strategic manner, have profound AH HA! moments, or see into the future?

To answer the question, I think that is exactly what I have just described. Why would you want to fix a small dynamic if you did not see how that would eventually evolve?

I have more "Ah Ha!" moments than I would prefer. Sometimes I would just like to be left in the dark, but since I cannot ignore information once it is present, I tend to be like, "Oh yeah.....another epiphany...." Another aspect to be responsible in factoring.

As far as strategic thinking, nothing I do is without its reason, there is always a specific goal in mind. This dates as far back as I can remember. I am a big preacher of cause and effect. Not sure if that is what you are referencing.

This is also the dynamic of my personality that causes people to not trust me. When they see that you continuously make subtle gestures and create situations where you have attained a desirable (if not ideal) outcome for yourself, if they cannot grasp my intention or motivation, they become wary of my ability. Even more so if you make it look effortless.

For that I have spent a better portion of my life trying to develop SOME sort of Fe, to disarm paranoia, and be seen as a "genuine" and trustworthy person. Making my intentions clear and direct, and trying to explain as much I can about what it is I am doing. Or not even bothering to try in order to avoid the friction that comes from the observer.

Example, at work (when working for a salon), I need to get the ideal schedule (no one gets to pick their schedule). So I come up with plans of what mine vs the companies would be. I make sure to create an incentive for them if they agree, work hard showing I am valuable to the company. Then lay out a argument as to what this schedule means to me and how it essentially benefits them in the long run, and is win/win for everyone. Argument makes sense, company agrees. Other coworkers are like, "Well, shit we can ask for specific schedules?" They ask, they are told no. Then they start with the, "But that isn't fair, TG got to." Suddenly I am the most hated and distrusted amongst my peers. Coworkers see it as favoritism, company cracks down on me to make a point that they have not favored me in anyway by becoming more strict to ANYTHING I present.

Thing is they could have been awarded the same opportunity if they had presented in the same manner I did. Taking care of strategy, dynamics, incentive, and logic, rather than simply asking to get their way.

I think this is overall where my functions are currently skewed in observation.
 

Jaguar

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Is he wrong? :)

Aside from the fact that Jung never defined a Judger or a Perceiver? ;)
Myers is the one who added on the J/P to Jung's typology.

So for Aleksei to state: "Judging as defined by Jung's typology . . . "
Yes, that particular comment he made was wrong.
 

Aleksei

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To answer the question, I think that is exactly what I have just described. Why would you want to fix a small dynamic if you did not see how that would eventually evolve?

I have more "Ah Ha!" moments than I would prefer. Sometimes I would just like to be left in the dark, but since I cannot ignore information once it is present, I tend to be like, "Oh yeah.....another epiphany...." Another aspect to be responsible in factoring.

As far as strategic thinking, nothing I do is without its reason, there is always a specific goal in mind. This dates as far back as I can remember. I am a big preacher of cause and effect. Not sure if that is what you are referencing.

This is also the dynamic of my personality that causes people to not trust me. When they see that you continuously make subtle gestures and create situations where you have attained a desirable (if not ideal) outcome for yourself, if they cannot grasp my intention or motivation, they become wary of my ability. Even more so if you make it look effortless.

For that I have spent a better portion of my life trying to develop SOME sort of Fe, to disarm paranoia, and be seen as a "genuine" and trustworthy person. Making my intentions clear and direct, and trying to explain as much I can about what it is I am doing. Or not even bothering to try in order to avoid the friction that comes from the observer.

Example, at work (when working for a salon), I need to get the ideal schedule (no one gets to pick their schedule). So I come up with plans of what mine vs the companies would be. I make sure to create an incentive for them if they agree, work hard showing I am valuable to the company. Then lay out a argument as to what this schedule means to me and how it essentially benefits them in the long run, and is win/win for everyone. Argument makes sense, company agrees. Other coworkers are like, "Well, shit we can ask for specific schedules?" They ask, they are told no. Then they start with the, "But that isn't fair, TG got to." Suddenly I am the most hated and distrusted amongst my peers. Coworkers see it as favoritism, company cracks down on me to make a point that they have not favored me in anyway by becoming more strict to ANYTHING I present.

Thing is they could have been awarded the same opportunity if they had presented in the same manner I did. Taking care of strategy, dynamics, incentive, and logic, rather than simply asking to get their way.

I think this is overall where my functions are currently skewed in observation.
That sounds ENTJ, yeah.
 

OrangeAppled

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just learn how different functions work and how you use them, but you also need to learn how to tell apart for example Ni+Fe working together from Fi.

It would be interesting to have at thread on that, if NTPs could be kept out of it :devil: .
 
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