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[NT] Fellow NT's - Are you cold?

Resonance

Energizer Bunny
Joined
May 18, 2010
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740
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I once heard an ENFJ say "...so my empathy allowed me to level back at her the exact pain she caused me. She deserved it, and though it hurt me to do it, I feel she's learned a valuable lesson about respecting the values of others."

Ugh. NFs....so illogical. :steam:
 

Billy

Crazy Diamond
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
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Ugh. NFs....so illogical. :steam:

It is only illogical to rationality, not to emotional growth. Reciprocity of a lesson is useful in teaching people to be more careful with the feelings of others. This is especially useful against NTs who sometimes can lack the empathy to feel the repercussions of their logic based actions in a world filled with emotions. It only becomes wrong when the person instilling the lesson gives more pain then the student put out.
 

Fluffywolf

Nips away your dignity
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It is only illogical to rationality, not to emotional growth. Reciprocity of a lesson is useful in teaching people to be more careful with the feelings of others.

The illogicality is the NF assuming the girl feels the same way he does. And how can one teach a good lesson, if the method of teaching isn't a good one. ;)

If she was an INTP, I bet she was internally laughing her ass off. Just saying.
 

Resonance

Energizer Bunny
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It is only illogical to rationality, not to emotional growth. Reciprocity of a lesson is useful in teaching people to be more careful with the feelings of others. This is especially useful against NTs who sometimes can lack the empathy to feel the repercussions of their logic based actions in a world filled with emotions. It only becomes wrong when the person instilling the lesson gives more pain then the student put out.

By teaching her to be more careful with the feelings of others, you're being insensitive to her own feelings of misanthropy.

@Fluffywolf: And that :p
 

Billy

Crazy Diamond
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The illogicality is the NF assuming the girl feels the same way he does. And how can one teach a good lesson, if the method of teaching isn't a good one. ;)

The point of instilling the pain manually is that the NT DOESNT see things the same way, meaning obviously the reasoning for doing said thing to said NT is that they are out of tune with what they are doing to those around them. Ever try to reason with someone as to why they should or shouldn't feel something when they're not really emotional to boot? You cant logically reason feelings, they're an entirely different level. Logic deals with logic, feelings deal with feelings.

Empathy is a feeling. No empathy? then well, humility to someones pride might suffice to mark their shame in a way they can really sink their teeth into.
 

Billy

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By teaching her to be more careful with the feelings of others, you're being insensitive to her own feelings of misanthropy.

@Fluffywolf: And that :p

If she is a misanthrope she is talking to the wrong person, total humanist and I will manipulate if I have to!
 

Fluffywolf

Nips away your dignity
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The point of instilling the pain manually is that the NT DOESNT see things the same way, meaning obviously the reasoning for doing said thing to said NT is that they are out of tune with what they are doing to those around them. Ever try to reason with someone as to why they should or shouldn't feel something when they're not really emotional to boot? You cant logically reason feelings, they're an entirely different level. Logic deals with logic, feelings deal with feelings.

Empathy is a feeling. No empathy? then well, humility to someones pride might suffice to mark their shame in a way they can really sink their teeth into.


Humility of someones pride is often a one sided experience. Unless the person is willing to admit defeat, you can't touch their pride.

On logic/logic, feeling/feeling bit. If we don't have some way of tempering our feelings, we would be at eachothers throats all day long, battling to the death. NT's prefer to use rationality to temper their feelings. Most other types use empathy and sympathy.

This NF misuses empathy, however. He doesn't use it.

This is also why NT's prefer rationality. Because empathy can be twisted around completely if you're forced in a bad mood. Especially if you lack the cognative function strengths to keep yourself in check when feeling down. NT's aren't know for having a very strong and stable use of Fe to boot, so in a way rationality is a neccesity for us, one could argue.

Either way, just saying, it's a lot more complex than saying logic belongs to logic and feeling belongs to feeling.

It's all about control that really matters though.
 

Billy

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Of course its more complex then that, but that doesn't mean it wrong. It takes rationality to know how much punishment to administer properly and without permanent harm to cause the right changes. But that rationality is behind the scenes, not actively forcing change.
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
To say that they are different spectrums doesn't seem right. Our thinking is more cohesive. Logic and feeling are, and will always be, inseparable.
 

Billy

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To say that they are different spectrums doesn't seem right. Our thinking is more cohesive. Logic and feeling are, and will always be, inseparable.

Only in the sense that if me and you were locked in a room together for the rest of our lives we would be inseparable. Whatever the net history of the room is from then on would be a conglomeration of us existing in tandem. That doesn't mean we are the same.
 

INTPness

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One thing that's cool about being an INTP is when the manipulation starts, I just "check out". Smile and quietly walk away. Phone off. Basically you are done until you "come back to earth". I just don't play the game at all.

I don't say this arrogantly, I'm just not going to be manipulated. Deal with me straight or don't deal with me at all. I've noticed with certain NF's (whom I love, BTW) that when they think I've been too logical or "too this" or "too that", it starts to become a game. They're going to "teach me something" or they dynamics change in a way that seems like you're in a chess match with the person. For me, as soon as I detect this (which is usually as soon as it's happening), the game is over. Put the chess board back in the closet for a few months - I'm not going there with you.
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
You use reasoning to decide what emotion to have. This cohesiveness is what I mean. They are by no means the same thing, but are used directly at the same time.
 

Billy

Crazy Diamond
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One thing that's cool about being an INTP is when the manipulation starts, I just "check out". Smile and quietly walk away. Phone off. Basically you are done until you "come back to earth". I just don't play the game at all.

I don't say this arrogantly, I'm just not going to be manipulated. Deal with me straight or don't deal with me at all. I've noticed with certain NF's (whom I love, BTW) that when they think I've been too logical or "too this" or "too that", it starts to become a game. They're going to "teach me something" or they dynamics change in a way that seems like you're in a chess match with the person. For me, as soon as I detect this (which is usually as soon as it's happening), the game is over. Put the chess board back in the closet for a few months - I'm not going there with you.

A very logical way to approach the situation, like a game... a gifted NF manipulator would then take your emotions wherever/whatever they are and set them on fire until you couldnt stand it anymore. And they wouldnt do it by chastising you and lecturing thats a more NT way to do things.
 

proximo

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To say nothing of the arrogance and pompous self-righteousness of setting oneself up as a self-appointed pedagogue to decide what others need to learn and how and when they're going to learn it.

Or deciding that YOU are allowed to go against your own values when you see fit, but when others do it, it's deserving of punishment and "lessons". Hypocrisy much?
 

Billy

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You use reasoning to decide what emotion to have. This cohesiveness is what I mean. They are by no means the same thing, but are used directly at the same time.

Im not entirely sure it always works that way for everyone. I don't sit around and reason the situation and then feel... usually its the other way around.
 

Billy

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To say nothing of the arrogance and pompous self-righteousness of setting oneself up as a self-appointed pedagogue to decide what others need to learn and how and when they're going to learn it.

parents, teachers, cops, lol we are all teachers, and we are all students. It doesnt matter who gives the lesson, only that people learn and grow. If I have to use emotional pain on someone to jolt them into understanding something, I dont do it out of malice, I do it because I want them to see what I see because what they're doing it hurting me or someone else and they dont realize it. Like spanking your child, you dont want to do it, you dont do it because you are angry, you do it because you love them enough to hurt them and teach them the right lesson so that they will not be harmed by their actons in the future.
 

Fluffywolf

Nips away your dignity
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To say that they are different spectrums doesn't seem right. Our thinking is more cohesive. Logic and feeling are, and will always be, inseparable.

I agree, I also would like to repeat that the relation of logic/rationality and feeling differs from person to person, largely based on the strength on their functions, for good reason.

I have had times in my life where I threw my rationality out of the window and the results of that weren't very good. Why? Because I don't have a strong cognative function capable of replacing my rationality. So for me, rationality is extremely important in relation to feeling. Through rationality, I am capable of adjusting myself and fitting into society.

A Fe dominant will learn through experience how to wield that Fe even when they are hurt the most and not let it loose control of the situation. Something I would never be able to do.

However, all that said, there is also such a thing as unhealthy use of cognative functions, the ENTJ example is one of them, me throwing rationality out of the window is also a good example. This unhealthy use should never be "rationalized" or deemed appropiate. It often does, the world is far from perfect. But if there's anything we should strive for, is to not allow that to happen.

After all, we're herd animals, not lone hunter-killers. :p

So, an eye for an eye method of teaching someone a lesson, although it may prove to be effective, is not the best method of teaching in my book. We should strive to put ourselves above that and find better, more humane, ways of teaching.
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
You can't force someone who doesn't want to learn to learn. It should be left at that. They'll soon find that they should've learned, but it's their fault, not yours.
 

Billy

Crazy Diamond
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We arent herd animals. We are pack animals.
 

Fluffywolf

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We're sheep with plastic money. :p
 
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