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[NT] Fellow NT's - Are you cold?

Salomé

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Yeah, it's funny, how many people suggest so many things about Asperger's... I'd like to know then, how my daughter seeing somebody crying and sobbing and complaining because she's taken something of theirs without asking and broken it, as someone being "unreasonable" and "anal", and "blubbing for no reason", and the person asking her to apologise as "stupid and illogical" can be a result of "too much empathy"
I don't see it as incompatible. This is the article I was thinking of. I'm sure you've seen it.

Hmm... firstly, it doesn't always check selfish impulses... I've known some Fe-type bullies in my time who've seemed to positively revel in the pain and hurt they labour to produce in others... And secondly, it's not the only thing that can check them - fear of consequences (more selfishness) can be another.
I don't associate empathy with Fe. Fe-doms can be incredibly cruel and calculating.
 

proximo

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Ah OK then MLF, looks like we're working from different definitions of empathy. Semantics alert! :)
 

Resonance

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Perhaps we're mixing up empathy and sympathy?
 

cascadeco

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I once heard an ENFJ say "...so my empathy allowed me to level back at her the exact pain she caused me. She deserved it, and though it hurt me to do it, I feel she's learned a valuable lesson about respecting the values of others."

I'm NFJ and don't relate to this one bit. But then I've never seen the value/usefulness of getting back at people in that way, and I don't relate to revenge acts/behaviors at all. It doesn't seem constructive to me, it seems petty/immature, and you cannot guarantee in any way that the person is going to 'learn' what you think you've taught them to learn.

(I realize this topic has long since moved beyond this post, but when I opened the thread it took me to this page!! haha.)
 

Resonance

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I'm NFJ and don't relate to this one bit. But then I've never seen the value/usefulness of getting back at people in that way, and I don't relate to revenge acts/behaviors at all. It doesn't seem constructive to me, it seems petty/immature, and you cannot guarantee in any way that the person is going to 'learn' what you think you've taught them to learn.

(I realize this topic has long since moved beyond this post, but when I opened the thread it took me to this page!! haha.)

No, it's very relevant...

How do you help people to change how they treat others?

also, would you consider yourself an optimist or a pessimist/'realist'...
 

proximo

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I'm NFJ and don't relate to this one bit. But then I've never seen the value/usefulness of getting back at people in that way, and I don't relate to revenge acts/behaviors at all. It doesn't seem constructive to me, it seems petty/immature, and you cannot guarantee in any way that the person is going to 'learn' what you think you've taught them to learn.

(I realize this topic has long since moved beyond this post, but when I opened the thread it took me to this page!! haha.)

You're a NICE NFJ though cascadeco :) See posts subsequent to that one for Billy's ...interesting demonstration of just how very much he relates to it :)
 

cascadeco

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No, it's very relevant...

How do you help people to change how they treat others?

also, would you consider yourself an optimist or a pessimist/'realist'...

I think people will only change if they themselves WANT to change. Thus you can't directly initiate change, nor can you try to 'convince' them that your way is better; it may cause them to dig their heels in even further (and this also begs the question, how does one decide whether one way is 'right' or not? Ultimately a lot of this can boil down to individually constructed value systems as well as priorities). I suppose mbti could assist on some level...knowing the 'language' the individual speaks (logic vs emotion, etc, although this thread is case in point that it isn't that black and white), and appealing to them in that manner.

I don't think I'm the one to ask HOW to help people change, as again, I don't believe they WILL change unless they decide for themselves that there is value in changing, and they desire to change. So, unless someone actively seeks help/advice, or reaches that point of wanting to change, I think it's kinda pointless to try to nudge them. That's just my general view on the matter; I suppose on a case-by-case basis I might vary that stance a little bit. Edit: I might make clear or tangent off into why *I* do things the way I do, because that's keeping it real and I'm just sharing my views on things, and then it's up to them to grab onto tendrils of that if they so choose. If nothing else I've planted a seed.

I think just showing by example, by living your own life in a positive way, showing by your OWN action/behavior what you deem right, works more wonders than active change. There will always be those observing who may decide, of their own volition, that some other way of being is worth exploring.

Which is why I don't believe in the concept of Revenge. It seems so hypocritical. You're basically acting out the very behavior you found unacceptable in another - you're stooping to 'their' level, if you will.

I know I didn't answer your question; I would have to give more thought to methods of actually trying to nudge people in a different direction - for example, in the case of a family member or other individual who you care about or who you can't and won't remove from your life and need to work with instead.

Re. optimism, pessimism, or realism, I think I am generally optimistic in terms of my own life, realistic regarding individual humans, and more pessimistic in terms of humans on a society/group-mode level.
 

SinistralPal

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Do you perceive yourself as a cold person? What is your definition of "cold"?

Actually. I have decided to answer the next question first.

How about others? Do they perceive you as a cold person?

Yes and no. See, my mom would love to say I am cold and heartless. Others say I show no emotion. A lot of people say I have a very strong Fe, and come across and bubbly and cheery. But think of it as a nice pink satin veil over stone cold rock. My emotions never ever leak out.

Back to the first question.

Do you perceive yourself as a cold person? What is your definition of "cold"?

I think that my first impression is of a friendly and warm person. However, I would say that's because people misconstrue my ENTP 7w8. I am into fun and enjoyment, and I love being around people. However, I never find it appropriate to cry or whine or even lean on other people that much besides my immediate family, and perhaps my boyfriends. Even with my close friends, I don't show "negative" emotions often.

If you answered yes to the first question, does your coldness push people away?

I heard I can be intimidating. However, I don't think it pushes people away, because of well, the pink satin veil hiding the rock. So, if you are an acquaintance of mine, you might think I am just really outgoing and funny and fun to hang around. If you are a close friend of mine, you might think of me as confident, intelligent, and a bit domineering. Finally, if you are REALLY close to me, you might see that sometimes I get anxious and nervous about my future and my place in the world. But, then I go back to my narcissistic ways. Ha


Are you warm to certain people only? If so, who are those people and why are you warm to them?

To me this question seems to be leading towards a hypothesized answer of cold to people you don't know well, and warm to those who are close. However, I have to say, the closer people are to me, the "colder" I get. It's almost as though I can let my guard down, and just be the ice cold bitch that I want to be. Someone explained it to me - what's the difference between an NF and an NT in relationships? NT's get more and more assured as time progresses, whereas NF's never leave that tinge of doubt behind. For me, I would say, the close I get, the more comfortable I am with people seeing my "cold rock" and not afraid of intimidating them, or pushing them away.
 

cascadeco

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You're a NICE NFJ though cascadeco :) See posts subsequent to that one for Billy's ...interesting demonstration of just how very much he relates to it :)

Oh, I did. :) Which is a reason I felt the need to post... it has little to do with the T/F thing.

(and thanks ;))
 

Resonance

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There are a variety of ways around someone who doesn't want to learn. Its always personally tailored to each individual you just need to know which buttons to press and in which order to disrupt their concentration long enough for you to slip your data in. You've never broken someone in denial down and let them collapse into you and told them just the right thing they needed to hear at that moment? I know how terribly manipulative that sounds, but we all do it to each other every single day, much of the time unconsciously, whats wrong with using it as a tactic *if* it works, and you know the person well enough to know their limits? Some types of therapists get paid huge money to do just that.
No, I usually tell them directly and if they don't get it I keep explaining and trying to figure out what they don't understand, until either they get it or I give up. Sometimes it comes down to fundamental values/beliefs, in which case it's a matter of seeing each other's entire reasoning so that we can forgive each other for having different opinions.
 

Resonance

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I think people will only change if they themselves WANT to change. Thus you can't directly initiate change, nor can you try to 'convince' them that your way is better; it may cause them to dig their heels in even further (and this also begs the question, how does one decide whether one way is 'right' or not? Ultimately a lot of this can boil down to individually constructed value systems as well as priorities). I suppose mbti could assist on some level...knowing the 'language' the individual speaks (logic vs emotion, etc, although this thread is case in point that it isn't that black and white), and appealing to them in that manner.

I don't think I'm the one to ask HOW to help people change, as again, I don't believe they WILL change unless they decide for themselves that there is value in changing, and they desire to change. So, unless someone actively seeks help/advice, or reaches that point of wanting to change, I think it's kinda pointless to try to nudge them. That's just my general view on the matter; I suppose on a case-by-case basis I might vary that stance a little bit. Edit: I might make clear or tangent off into why *I* do things the way I do, because that's keeping it real and I'm just sharing my views on things, and then it's up to them to grab onto tendrils of that if they so choose. If nothing else I've planted a seed.

I think just showing by example, by living your own life in a positive way, showing by your OWN action/behavior what you deem right, works more wonders than active change. There will always be those observing who may decide, of their own volition, that some other way of being is worth exploring.

Which is why I don't believe in the concept of Revenge. It seems so hypocritical. You're basically acting out the very behavior you found unacceptable in another - you're stooping to 'their' level, if you will.

I know I didn't answer your question; I would have to give more thought to methods of actually trying to nudge people in a different direction - for example, in the case of a family member or other individual who you care about or who you can't and won't remove from your life and need to work with instead.
See, that makes perfect sense to me :3 I wish you could explain that to my family. :D

Re. optimism, pessimism, or realism, I think I am generally optimistic in terms of my own life, realistic regarding individual humans, and more pessimistic in terms of humans on a society/group-mode level.
The reason I asked is because optimism/pessimism is associated with the concept of 'locus of control' - that is, if you are optimistic about something, you will feel like you can do something about it...like good things happen because of your actions, and like bad things happen because of circumstances outside of your control...

I wonder if people who are more 'manipulative' are more 'optimistic' about the people they are dealing with.
 

Salomé

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Ah OK then MLF, looks like we're working from different definitions of empathy. Semantics alert! :)
The problem starts with the complexity of empathy itself. One aspect is simply the ability to see the world from the perspective of another. Another is more emotional – the ability to imagine what the other is feeling and care about their pain as a result.
Autistic children tend to develop the first part of empathy – which is called "theory of mind" – later than other kids.
....
Studies have found that when people are overwhelmed by empathetic feelings, they tend to pull back. When someone else's pain affects you deeply, it can be hard to reach out rather than turn away.
For people with autism spectrum disorder, these empathetic feelings might be so intense that they withdraw in a way that appears cold or uncaring.
This type of emotional sensitivity doesn't necessarily result in taking action on the other's behalf, but is implicated in inhibiting behaviours.

Psychopaths are the opposite: they have no difficulty with theory of mind, but they do not experience affective empathy.
 

proximo

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This type of emotional sensitivity doesn't necessarily result in taking action on the other's behalf, but is implicated in inhibiting behaviours.

Psychopaths are the opposite: they have no difficulty with theory of mind, but they do not experience affective empathy.

Yeah, I don't buy that though. I mean, it might be the case in some autistic individuals, but not as a result of the autism itself. I know my kid. I've talked with her at great length over the years and I'm about as sure as I could be that she is most definitely not in the least bit affected by the emotions of those around her. The only way in which I can discern her to ever be affected is indirectly, for example if, due to their feelings, people are making a lot of noise. It's simply the noise she dislikes - I'm pretty confident that she hasn't a Scooby what the reasons for it are, and if she seems to get upset then it's exactly because a lot of noise is happening (and she doesn't like noise) and she doesn't know why (which means she can't predict it, control it, or stop it).

If it were autism that occasioned/enabled this "acute empathy", then my daughter's been misdiagnosed, which is incredibly unlikely as she's been diagnosed the same by 4 independent specialists. Plus, I've lived with her for 11 years and spent years attending clinics, help groups, parent groups, you name it, I homeschool her ffs so I'm with her 24/7/365, as well as formerly working in a care home for adults with autism that buried me up to the eyeballs in training... I know there are a LOT of theories about autism out there, but I have to filter them through my experience :)
 

Salomé

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^No doubt the clinical picture varies. It's just one model for a poorly understood (and probably over-diagnosed) disorder.
The illogicality is the NF assuming the girl feels the same way he does.
Which is actually evidence of a cognitive empathy failure, isn't it?
Empathy acknowledges and respects the integrity of the individual. It projects into their situation rather than imposing an external standard.
Fe does not. It's all about the group and behavioural norms. Specifically, sacrificing individual interests for the sake of the collective. It has more of a connection to sympathy (feeling alike). That's my take on it, anyway.

After all, we're herd animals, not lone hunter-killers.
We're hunter-gatherers. Some better at hunting, some better at gathering.
So, an eye for an eye method of teaching someone a lesson, although it may prove to be effective, is not the best method of teaching in my book. We should strive to put ourselves above that and find better, more humane, ways of teaching.
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." - Ghandi
 

cascadeco

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See, that makes perfect sense to me :3 I wish you could explain that to my family. :D


The reason I asked is because optimism/pessimism is associated with the concept of 'locus of control' - that is, if you are optimistic about something, you will feel like you can do something about it...like good things happen because of your actions, and like bad things happen because of circumstances outside of your control...

I wonder if people who are more 'manipulative' are more 'optimistic' about the people they are dealing with.

haha, thanks.

I can see how those who are more manipulative are more optimistic in the person changing or in believing they have the ability to do that.

But those who are optimistic are not necessarily manipulative :) Optimism in ones fellow man does not imply that they see the need/benefit in being manipulative. There are other ways.

(I suppose that would be a whole other discussion - what exactly IS manipulation? I believe an important factor is motivation of the doer, as an outsider/observer might label something as manipulative when the person doing the 'manipulative' action may not have any ulterior motive. I mean, there are obviously those who are really sneaky and are deliberately playing people or pushing certain buttons because they know or think it'll work, and that's more conscious/deliberate, as they have a certain desired end result in mind. Maybe those who don't have a desire of a certain outcome, or who aren't trying to forcefully push their own ego/self/view onto the other wouldn't be manipulating, then? I dunno.. gotta think that through more. haha.)
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

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Manipulation isn't manipulation without motive. I'm just saying that most, if not all, of the time the person manipulating knows they are doing so. Depending on how well they do so is a different matter. This is why the word has such a foul taste in our mouthes when we say it. The pain (or in some views help) it causes is usually intentional.
 
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