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[NT] NT women and femininity *thread split*

SillySapienne

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^ except by default that suggests that an INFP would be the most feminine type, which reality doesn't support. The INFPs I've known did not present that way.
As I said before, it's nebulous, and it is not supposed to translate that way.

But, I guess it does.

Regardless, it is just my *own* beliefs and feelings regarding my *own* categorizations/definitions of T-ness, F-ness, I-ness, E-ness, J-ness, P-ness, N-ness, and S-ness,

:)
 

SillySapienne

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Extroversion - peacockery

Introversion - silent sentience

Sensing - seeing is believing

Intuition - believing/feeling is seeing

Thinking - rational/pragmatic/objective

Feeling - caring/communal/egalitarian/empathetic

Judging - Order

Perceiving - chaos/cycles
 

Uytuun

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Btw, utyuun, are you an INTJ female?

I've never been quite sure about your sexuality...

I am.

Isn't ambiguity deliciously feminine according to your ideas, though? You could've known.

;)
 

sculpting

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^ except by default that suggests that an INFP would be the most feminine type, which reality doesn't support. The INFPs I've known did not present that way.

Quiet, reserved, but not overtly feminine. Most ENTP women, especially the 30 plus crowd, that I have observed, appear more feminine that the ENFP women though or the INFP women.

Just my observations though.
 

Misty_Mountain_Rose

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I'm not sure if my relationship issues are based so much in masculine/feminine tendencies. My core issue in them seems to be the general lack of feeling connected to people. (I'm also a 4w5 though, which may play a part)
 

Amethyst

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Extroversion - peacockery

Introversion - silent sentience

Sensing - seeing is believing

Intuition - believing/feeling is seeing

Thinking - rational/pragmatic/objective

Feeling - caring/communal/egalitarian/empathetic

Judging - Order

Perceiving - chaos/cycles
So, it sounds like whoever said femininity changes was wrong. This is pretty much what the general population of men sought after in a woman for centuries, someone caring, dependent more so on emotions, quiet etc.

Plus, personality is, for the most part, genderless. We just put sticky notes of gender on them in order to make unconscious generalizations.
 

PeaceBaby

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^ except by default that suggests that an INFP would be the most feminine type, which reality doesn't support. The INFPs I've known did not present that way.

Indeed; especially when one thinks the feminine qualities are commensurate with being the dish-rag in the soapy water of life.

If you believe T-type attributes to be by nature more masculine, and F-type traits to be feminine, naturally, you could extrapolate and say that T women may seem more masculine by having these qualities and living them.

And I could see it being an issue for T women to find men who can appreciate their strengths without feeling challenged by them.

But I've met feminine men and they were not F; I've met masculine women who were not T. It's more complicated I think than simply making a formula derived from MBTI on what constitutes femininity and masculinity.

A woman can be strong and still be feminine. A woman can demonstrate intelligence and still be feminine. A woman can seem aloof and still be feminine. A woman can be assertive and ... you get the idea.

This could be a huge topic of course, exploring masculine and feminine archetypes, but I'll just add a great quote from Osho instead:

"It is the long condemnation of feminine qualities that has gone deep into the blood and the bones of women. It is man's conspiracy to prove himself superior to women -- which he is not.

And to prove that the woman is weak, he has to condemn all the feminine qualities. He has to say that they are all weak, and all those qualities together make the woman weak. In fact, the woman has all the great qualities in her. And whenever a man becomes awakened, he attains to the same qualities which he has been condemning in women. The qualities that are thought to be weak are all the feminine qualities. And it is a strange fact that all the great qualities come into that category. What is left are only the brutal qualities, animal qualities.

Love, trust, beauty, sincerity, truthfulness, authenticity -- these are all feminine qualities, and they are far greater than any qualities that man has. But the whole past has been dominated by man and his qualities".

Osho, excerpted from Sermons in Stones, Chapter 17


Life is about attaining a balance point, feminine and masculine in harmony, yin and yang ...
 

Salomé

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FWIW, I think I think in a more typically masculine way, and I don't defer to men just because they're men. But no one would ever call me masculine.

I tend to be attracted to men who are pretty balanced as well--maybe the flip side of me. Seemingly pretty masculine at first glance, unafraid to pursue if he sees a woman he's attracted to (or at least willing to put himself out there anyway), but not married to gender roles and not fixated on what masculinity is, and what femininity is. It's really less of a formula than the feeling of two personalities complementing each other without worrying so much about the labels.
Very much so. Actually, I see anyone who embodies extreme masculinity or femininity so that they become a walking stereotype as unbalanced and, paradoxically, undifferentiated. I find myself drawn to "masculine" women and "feminine" men since both seem to be capable of expanding their consciousness beyond mundane cliches. Perhaps because they have to - nurture pushes them in one direction, nature pulls them in another. Those who resolve this conflict successfully are among the most interesting, intelligent, creative, well-rounded people I have ever encountered.

I'm not going to respond to your patronizing and juvenile post by flaming you. I understand that the fallacy you've been trying to point out in my post is the false dilemma (though you've confused this with the straw man.) Quite simply, you claim that:

(1) All people have a mixture of masculinity and femininity.
(2) This mixture varies in composition depending on personality type.
(3) NTs tend to have more masculinity and less femininity.
(4) More masculine/less feminine types are attracted to more feminine types.
(5) More masculine/less feminine types are still attracted, in their heart of hearts, to more masculine types.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Therefore...

(C1) NTs are attracted to more feminine types.
(C2) NTs are attracted to more masculine types.
...
I do love to witness a good Ti pwn. The idea that he thought he could instruct you in critical thinking is laughably ridiculous.
That T-ness is more masculine than F-ness

That E-ness is more masculine than I-ness

That J-ness is more masculine than P-ness <--lulz

And that S-ness is more masculine than N-ness.

^The above statements are my own nebulous beliefs, and no, I don't care if they are not valid by any body else's standards, they're my own, thank you very much.
I said as much here:
I guess these mesh with common cultural ideas about masculinity and femininity. Interestingly, the BBC are conducting a huge research project on personality type distribution. And they have found the following:
Personality and gender

For the first time, we are able to see that men tend to score higher for the trait of Openness than women. Intriguingly, this suggests that men tend to have a higher sensitivity for art and beauty than women, whereas women tend to be more practical.
Other findings confirmed previous research. Women scored higher on average than men in Agreeableness, Conscientiousness, and Neuroticism. In other words, women tend to be more caring, dependable and emotional, while men tend to be more competitive, distracted and even-tempered.
These are Big 5 measures.
If we use a rough correlation:
E = E/I
O = N/S
A = F/T
C = J/P

Then, if we are going to use the definition of feminine as "more likely to be found in women", we have the following pattern (for the British population, at least).

E/I - no gender distinction

More "masculine" ----> More "feminine"
N-----> S
T-----> F
P-----> J

The T/F split is well-documented and there are a plenty of supporting theories for this phenomenon. NP v SJ is perhaps more surprising...though not really; it's almost a corollary, if we accept that right-hemisphere development tends to start earlier and be more pronounced in males due to the effects of androgen on the developing fetal brain.

Actually, this does make sense; SFJs are the closest types to the feminine archetype. They're also mostly women/most women are of this type.

According to that source, I is also (slightly) more common in males than E.

That would make INTP the most masculine type.
Someone should really tell INTP men that. ;)

It's more complicated I think than simply making a formula derived from MBTI on what constitutes femininity and masculinity.
Of course it is, but we're NTs! Formulae are our forte. :)
 

Misty_Mountain_Rose

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Peacebaby, I agree that it is more complicated than type. I was completely with you until I started reading the quote you put in near the end. The author of the quote is basically saying that all that is good is in the feminine side of our natures, and all that is 'animalistic' and 'brutal' is masculine.

In fact, the woman has all the great qualities in her. And whenever a man becomes awakened, he attains to the same qualities which he has been condemning in women. The qualities that are thought to be weak are all the feminine qualities. And it is a strange fact that all the great qualities come into that category. What is left are only the brutal qualities, animal qualities.

That seems like a pretty narrow (almost hateful?) way of looking at masculine vs feminine. While it may read as pretty and uplifting for women... I find it a bit insulting, and I'm not even a guy.

Life is about attaining a balance point, feminine and masculine in harmony, yin and yang ...

I find it interesting that you put this at the end of your post after the previous quote that seemed to uphold the strict divide between the masculine and the feminine. The quote you chose screams 'US versus THEM'.

The Yin/Yang concept though isn't about division, its about unity. About one not being able to exist without the other. How all things in nature must return to a state of balance. Like a rubber-band with too much tension - there will be an opposite reaction of equal force (Hardness to softness, fast to slow) and eventually a state of harmony is reached. In the true understanding of Yin and Yang, masculine and feminine are ONE, not two.

The contrast between your quote and the reference to Yin and Yang philosophies was too much for my brain to handle. I think I short-circuited for a minute.

:wacko:
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

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I think Tawanda is quite correct here. It's an unconscious generalization, that, when the generalization is brought to the surface and realized makes sense to most of the populace (that of the United States) and so it's allowed to wallow back where it came from. No emotion (or inanimate object) is inheretly masculine or femine, unless the object is designed specifically for that gender in which case it is meant exactly for that gender.

To say that an emotion is weak doesn't make sense (poor word choice by most).
 

Salomé

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In the true understanding of Yin and Yang, masculine and feminine are ONE, not two.
I like this elaboration from Integral Theory:

Have you ever seen a caduceus (the symbol of the medical profession)? It’s a staff with two serpents crisscrossing it, and wings at the top of the staff. The staff itself represents the central spinal column; where the serpents cross the staff represents the individual chakras moving up the spine from the lowest to the highest; and the two serpents themselves represent solar and lunar (or masculine and feminine) energies at each of the chakras.

That’s the crucial point. The 7 chakras, which are simply a more complex version of the 3 simple levels or stages, represent 7 levels of consciousness and energy available to all human beings. (The first three chakras—food, sex, and power—are roughly stage 1; chakras four and five—relational heart and communication—are basically stage 2; and chakras six and seven—psychic and spiritual—are the epitome of stage 3). The important point here is that, according to the traditions, each of those 7 levels has a masculine and feminine aspect, type, or “voice.” Neither masculine nor feminine is higher or better; they are two equivalent types at each of the levels of consciousness.
This means, for example, that with chakra 3 (the egocentric-power chakra), there is a masculine and feminine version of the same chakra: at that chakra-level, males tend toward power exercised autonomously (“My way or the highway!”), women tend toward power exercised communally or socially (“Do it this way or I won’t talk to you”). And so on with the other major chakras, each of them having a solar and lunar, or masculine and feminine dimension; neither is more fundamental, neither can be ignored. At the 7th chakra, however, notice that the masculine and feminine serpents both disappear into their ground or source. Masculine and feminine meet and unite at the crown—they literally become one. And that is what Gilligan found with her stage-4 moral development: the two voices in each person become integrated, so that there is a paradoxical union of autonomy and relationship, rights and responsibilities, agency and communion, wisdom and compassion, justice and mercy, masculine and feminine.

I see "masculine" and "feminine" as labels or containers for a set of concepts and qualities and types of energy. They're almost Platonic Ideals. As such, they never exist in pure form IRL. An extreme expression of one or the other actually represents a pathological repression.
 

PeaceBaby

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I think I short-circuited for a minute.

My apologies for the short-circuit!

The quote is the pendulum swung wide, then coming back to center - the whole concept of what is the feminine and masculine (and what is embodied in each) is meant to come to that center point.

The quote is not meant to be uplifting to women per se. And it's not intended to be about "us vs them" or engaged in a highly literal sense.

I like this quote because it's directed to the masculine, and a reminder that much of what we admire (and are taught to admire) is masculine, even as women, but much of what we need to find balance is often what we initially reject (emotions, tears, softness) ...

Osho actively rejected inherited stereotypes and belief systems ... he was raised in India, with both caste and gender inequalities prevalent in daily life.

The quote's intention is not as black & white as you are interpreting it, that's all. :)

The Yin/Yang concept though isn't about division, its about unity. About one not being able to exist without the other.

Not unity, so much as balance. In balance with each other. Needing the other. Acknowledging the other.
 

Rainne

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Difficult to change something hard-wired.
 

SillySapienne

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Hmmmm..

I am not afraid to state my belief in the feminine and the masculine.

Just like I don't deny the existence of estrogen and androgens, and these hormones effects on human behavior and physiological structure.

But, I have my own ideas of what constitute femininity and masculinity as human behaviors and societal constructs.

For someone to deny the existence of the feminine and the masculine is ludicrous to me.

Transcendent throughout the universe I find, and am not the only one, that dual forces harmonize to create a dynamic unity.

I dunno.

Just some rambling thoughts...
 

sculpting

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SS, do you think the terms F/M could be exchanged for dominate/alpha and submissive/beta-at least for shorts spans of time? I could perceive the possibility of this interactive play contributing to a very dynamic relationship where roles are exchanged, especially for types where the T/F are in the middle perhaps.

There is not one person who is masculine, but instead both parties have aspects of feminine and masculine maybe.

Lots of good thoughts in this thread btw to all posters.
 

SillySapienne

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My own views are as such...

Males have overt power women have covert power.

He acts to impress her.

He kills to impress her.

He builds to impress her.

He acquires to impress her....

I dunno, who is dominant here?

That which owns/acts? Or that which motivates such actions?
 

SillySapienne

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Before I get into trouble, I also think that there are many human actions that rest above and below our biological imperative to procreate. :)
 

SillySapienne

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Orobas, what is funny, is that both females and males each have estrogen and androgen hormones, granted, males tend to have more androgens, and females more estrogen, but still.

That is a bio-chemical "answer" that supports the idea that within each of us lies the masculine and the feminine.

:yes:
 

Amethyst

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My own views are as such...

Males have overt power women have covert power.

He acts to impress her.

He kills to impress her.

He builds to impress her.

He acquires to impress her....

I dunno, who is dominant here?

That which owns/acts? Or that which motivates such actions?
The same can go for many women who go leaps and bounds for a certain someone they find special just to even notice them. It's the same in both realms of gender.
 

Uytuun

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My INTJ best friend in high school had a mystique and impenetrable distance to her, she was ethereal, wise beyond her years, and wiser than me. I embraced her, and loved her, immensely, I was her loyal dog, she my cat queen.

I want to quote this here because SS expressed exactly what I find to be intensely feminine about my type - regardless of her position in the argument here.
 
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