[NT] Now with drugs

[Kasper]

There's a couple of threads going around about depression and a common point raised by people a number of those who have experienced it is that they don't/didn't want to take any prescribed medication.

Ignoring doctors apparent willingness to overmedicate, if you think it's good or bad, tell why?

 

[Kasper]

*shrug* not gonna get shot, I want differing opinions that not everyone can agree with, because I want to see all different angles.

I have a very cynical view of the doctor - drug company relationship. It doesn't invalidate the drug but it does cause me to question why doctors are so quick with that prescription paper and whether or not their quick and simple answer is right for their patient.

 

[Windigo]

I was proscribed Lexapro as well. I stopped after two months because I noticed a general numbness. "Hey kids, you're lighting a fire in the living room? Oh, okay."

I don't usually take asprin for headaches or cold medicine for colds. I like to rely on my bodies own ability to heal naturally.

I did read an interesting article in I think it was Time Magazine (which I don't usually read) discussing how depression played a major role in many great leaders lives (Abraham Lincoln and Winston Churchill to name a couple). And how depression serves a natural function in our lives forcing us to slow down and become introspective. It argued that perhaps these men might not have been the great leaders they were if they had been drugged up and forced to ignore their depression.

 

[Windigo]

Here's one view on Churchill:
Winston Churchill and Manic Depression: A fatal curse or the root of his genius?

 

[Kasper]

In response to what he said, I asked, "What you're saying is- it's more for profit?" His response- "You bet. It's the name of the game." I said, "It's people's lives we're dealing with here!!" He reply, "It's business." I felt like choking after hearing that.

^ exactly, it is a business, therefore I believe patients need to educate themselves and not rely on the fact that they've been given permission to get a drug because it is marketed to help. It may do more harm.

I did read an interesting article in I think it was Time Magazine (which I don't usually read) discussing how depression played a major role in many great leaders lives (Abraham Lincoln and Winston Churchill to name a couple). And how depression serves a natural function in our lives forcing us to slow down and become introspective. It argued that perhaps these men might not have been the great leaders they were if they had been drugged up and forced to ignore their depression.

Ignoring depression through drugs isn't something I'd ever consider healthy, it may provide a respite but it's not the long term answer. If numbness to the point where nothing is dealt with is a side effect then the whole thing sounds terrible although not everyone has the disposition to succeed at life while depressed.

The topic here of the benefits of depression is interesting, personally I view depression as a sign that something isn't right and therefore changes need to be made, only issue with that is someone dealing with depression isn't often going to be in the right kind of head space to do so. Which is where the topic of drugs: good or bad, comes in. Do they help or hinder that process. My answer to that is I have no freaken idea.

 

[bluebell]

I'm not generally anti-medication for depression. However, I deliberately avoid taking any anti-depressants myself, despite having PTSD symptoms and various mental health issues.

I've taken anti-depressants twice in my life (both times one of the old-style ones rather than the new SSRIs). Once when I was 15 and I wasn't told beforehand what the medication was. I mentioned to my mother after a couple of weeks that I was feeling more up and she mentioned that is was supposed to have that effect. So I immediately stopped taking it because a) I hadn't been given the option of an informed choice and b) I loathed and detested the thought that my emotions were being manipulated by drugs. I wanted to be me even if that meant I often felt miserable.

The second in my twenties for pain relief and at a tiny fraction of the therapeutic dose. It turned me into a brain dead zombie and I was so out of it that I didn't realise how out of it I was til I came off the drugs a few months later. I nearly got kicked out of grad school because it affected my performance way too much.

I also tried St John's Wort to reduce anxiety in my late twenties/early thirties. That also, in hindsight, deadened me greatly and I regretted having taken it for several years.

I have had anti-depressants suggested to me by several therapists over the past few years but my reaction has always been hell no. I'm aware that my mental health issues are not a simple chemical imbalance; they're purely to do with experiences I had as a child and an adult. edit: I also refuse to take the risk of being so completely non-functional on even a low dose of anti-depressants. I don't want to risk losing my job from it.

However, if someone chooses to take anti-depressants, I don't have a problem with it. If they don't combine it with talking therapy or some other working through their personal issues, though, I do tend to think they're only applying a bandaid solution to the problem.

With anti-anxiolytic drugs, I'm much more ambivalent. I personally think (from personal experience with severe anxiety issus) that anxiety is much better dealt with by facing up to emotional problems. IMO anxiety tends to be caused by some emotion that's been buried/not dealt with. Plus I've found that reducing caffeine and sugar intake signficantly helps my background anxiety levels.

 

[miss fortune]

I really don't have much experience personally with just plain depression... though I am close to some who have... I'm not sure if my type of depression CAN be controlled by changing my thinking or something, but it can be by changing my lifestyle, which I find makes a much greater difference than any of the meds that I've taken. Anything that I've taken has tended to make me feel dead... like a zombie or something... but I've never reacted well with any drugs...

I remember the first time of experiencing a form of depression... a deep psychotic depression is always a happy greeting to bipolar disorder! I'd hear voices telling me that I deserved to be miserable or dead... or worse yet I'd see people who I'd loved who were dead telling me the same thing- my days were either spent parked on the couch in a half asleep stupor watching food network or trying to drink myself senseless... and it wasn't helping much. After getting in a car accident (while sober) and completely shutting down for 24 hours I quit sleeping... which was scary and what finally prompted me to go to the doctor. I was prescribed an antidepressant.

It took away the sharp feelings of anything, but the feelings of deadness made me more miserable- the recurring thought of "is THIS what I have to look forward to from now on? feeling EMPTY?"... finally I convinced them to prescribe me sleeping meds and I ditched the antidepressants. Getting a good night's sleep was wonderful... it didn't cure everything by any means, but it at least made me feel hopeful!

So antidepressants didn't work for me, but I'm certainly not against prescription drugs being used for treatment- I just think that most doctors are close minded about the options that they have for treatment and only look at the most obvious ones

 

[Synapse]

over medicating is reckless.

that's my take on it. what more do you need. if the medical establishment had to pay their patients when unable to restore their full health to them then they might have a different attituted in wanting to treat their patients.

 

[scantilyclad]

I used to be one of those people that decided to quit taking medication, but when I'm on medication, although I do feel sort of brain dead and zombie like, I'd rather feel that way than feel completely hopeless and I'd most certainly rather feel zombied out than hurt my family with things I do during manic episodes.

However I no longer take SSRIs, they just mostly induced manic symptoms for me. I take an anti convulsant that functions as a mood stabilizer and an anti-depressant and I take an anti-psychotic. My life overall is much better than it is when i'm not medicated.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

There's a couple of threads going around about depression and a common point raised by people a number of those who have experienced it is that they don't/didn't want to take any prescribed medication.

Ignoring doctors apparent willingness to overmedicate, if you think it's good or bad, tell why?

1) Okay. you took one of my reasons away...

2) Seems there are more and more studies all the time questioning the effifacy of these things. The latest one I saw found that only one quarter of people treated with anti-depressents fared better than those on placebo. Doesn't seem that effective most of the time.

3) I've had doubts for a long time that I actually have clinical depression. I think something is wrong, but sadness does not equal clinical depression, and the depression criteria never seemed quite right for me. Unless you take the broadest criteria, but frankly the broadest criteria seems to encompass the majority of human beings and would overlap/create comorbidity with like, 50 other disorders, so I think it's pretty damn questionable.

4) I surprise people with how rarely I take pain killers. This is a part of the way I choose to deal with life. I don't want a chemical crutch. If I have a problem, I went to be conscious of it, and I want to learn how to deal with it without a chemical dependency. I will probably push for that goal as far as I can. I'd have to face a crushing to defeat to be convinced otherwise.

5) Time and money. I have a lot of negative feelings over all the things I need to get done, and what I think I'm not getting done. I've also been worried about money (which is perfectly realistic given my situation). The more time and money I pitch into this, the more I'm adding to those problems. I think it would ironically make me feel worse. Resources I precious, and I have better things to do with them.

 

[nonsequitur]

I have comorbid anxiety and depression, and am currently on 20mg Lexapro. I had many many misgivings about medication and changing medications, even when they didn't work. I guess most of this stemmed from my fears about "losing my personality" and "damaging my creativity" etc. Mostly, I was afraid that my doctor would over-medicate me. However, he always listened to what I had to say, and allowed me to basically take charge of my own treatment and make my own decisions about the various options that he presented to me. So I guess I would say that I'm very lucky in having a sensible, supportive doctor.

What I can say right now, though, is that it's given me a quality of life and mental stability that I treasure. I know that it's not a permanent solution; my therapist started to get me to learn different anti-anxiety relaxation techniques, and accept that I have emotional issues that probably won't be "resolved". This is to help me deal with life in general when I go off meds (we have a plan for when this will happen, too).

I don't think that medication is right for everyone; and I don't think it should be used to blunt emotions that are natural, like grief and sadness. But I think in my case, where I was up in the early morning struggling with insomnia and strong urges to stab myself, terrified of my mind and the world, it was incredibly helpful.

So I guess my viewpoint is that while it may be oversold, but there are still situations that warrant antidepressants. In these situations, I'd be suspicious if the doctor didn't present all the options, talk about the side-effect profiles in the literature and pricing, and talk about a treatment plan that is complemented by lifestyle change and therapy. I would be even more suspicious if after finding the right medication and working on the treatment plan, he/she didn't talk about long-term goals to get off the medication.

Also wanted to add before someone else jumps in that the first thing my doctor got me tested for was thyroid problems, it's standard here. It was only after we'd ruled that out that we discussed antidepressants and other treatment options.

 

[Fecal McAngry]

There's a couple of threads going around about depression and a common point raised by people a number of those who have experienced it is that they don't/didn't want to take any prescribed medication.

Ignoring doctors apparent willingness to overmedicate, if you think it's good or bad, tell why?

As ESTJ Larry King might put it, WHAT'S YOUR QUESTION MA'AM!?

 

[Fecal McAngry]

I view depression as a sign that something isn't right and therefore changes need to be made, only issue with that is someone dealing with depression isn't often going to be in the right kind of head space to do so. Which is where the topic of drugs: good or bad, comes in. Do they help or hinder that process. My answer to that is I have no freaken idea.

It...depends.

I would love to have seen Kurt Cobain hospitalized and medicated in April of 1994. Courtney alleges he never tried antidepressants, except for one time when he ate 8 Prozac capsules, and then complained of a stomach ache. "Of course you have a stomach ache. You took eight Prozac capsules!"

MOST OF THE TIME, however, the depression does not rise to the level of threat of death, SOON, and can be remedied without the use of emotional anesthetics...

FAR too often, I have seen people with shitty lives take SSRIs or other ADs and turn into zombies...

There's a great passage from the book below, where some guy who used to be driven up the wall by his wife comments "My wife is still a bitch. But now I don't care."

http://www.amazon.com/Prozac-Backlash-Overcoming-Antidepressants-Alternatives/dp/0684860015

 

[Fecal McAngry]

I have comorbid anxiety and depression, and am currently on 20mg Lexapro. I had many many misgivings about medication and changing medications, even when they didn't work. I guess most of this stemmed from my fears about "losing my personality" and "damaging my creativity" etc. Mostly, I was afraid that my doctor would over-medicate me. However, he always listened to what I had to say, and allowed me to basically take charge of my own treatment and make my own decisions about the various options that he presented to me. So I guess I would say that I'm very lucky in having a sensible, supportive doctor.

What I can say right now, though, is that it's given me a quality of life and mental stability that I treasure. I know that it's not a permanent solution; my therapist started to get me to learn different anti-anxiety relaxation techniques, and accept that I have emotional issues that probably won't be "resolved". This is to help me deal with life in general when I go off meds (we have a plan for when this will happen, too).

I don't think that medication is right for everyone; and I don't think it should be used to blunt emotions that are natural, like grief and sadness. But I think in my case, where I was up in the early morning struggling with insomnia and strong urges to stab myself, terrified of my mind and the world, it was incredibly helpful.

So I guess my viewpoint is that while it may be oversold, but there are still situations that warrant antidepressants. In these situations, I'd be suspicious if the doctor didn't present all the options, talk about the side-effect profiles in the literature and pricing, and talk about a treatment plan that is complemented by lifestyle change and therapy. I would be even more suspicious if after finding the right medication and working on the treatment plan, he/she didn't talk about long-term goals to get off the medication.

Also wanted to add before someone else jumps in that the first thing my doctor got me tested for was thyroid problems, it's standard here. It was only after we'd ruled that out that we discussed antidepressants and other treatment options.

This is a good post. Contact me if you want to discuss possible ways to feel better without ADs, or on a lower dose. Thyroid is not the only thing that should be tested for; low testosterone, IGF-1 (HGH marker), and vitamin D can all make you feel depressed, and as with hypothyroid, the remedy is to treat those things rather than use an AD to mask...

D deficiency is effing massive these days...

 

[Halla74]

Considering the potential for (common) adverse effects when considering SSRIs/SNRIs (e.g. weight gain, apathy, insomnia, sexual dysfunction, etc.) I am pre-disposed to encourage folks to try all other options first (exercise, better nutrition, counseling/CBT, and self-exploration.

You'd be amazed at how quickly your life improves when you feel better, look better, and eliminate as many things in your life (bad job, toxic people, demanding social groups, etc.) that contribute to feelings of unhappiness.

If you feel you are being prevented from living a normal, productive, and happy life then consider meds, but do so carefully.

umpyouup:

 

[Rebe]

Treating mental illness is tough.

The doctors will prescribe you medication if it is what you want. They won't deny you medication. But they will monitor you closely, or at least my doctor did. I saw him every two weeks for months.

If you are unsure, you should spend time with a psychiatrist or psychologist and get their opinions. If you are suicidal, they usually immediately advice medication. The thing is, severe depression will receive the most benefit from anti depressants while mild depression may not receive any difference from a placebo.

It's a tough call for people seeking help. That's the problem with medical care, you don't trust your doctors because they are always selling you drugs or advising something expensive and you can almost see the dollar signs in their eyes.

Every time I went to see the damn doctor, I had to pay $50 copay and that was a pretty good deal. Every time I went to see the damn psychiatrist, I had to pay over $100. I once called a psychiatrist and the devil said he charged $1000 for initial consultation. WTF! :steam: I needed help, desperately, but not at these prices.

For some people, self-help is more efficient than medication. For some people, they will try to kill themselves without it. Tough call.

 

[Kasper]

The doctors will prescribe you medication if it is what you want. They won't deny you medication. But they will monitor you closely, or at least my doctor did. I saw him every two weeks for months.

If you add the word "good" before doctors then that statement works, it's not always the case though.

The reason I was curious about people's stance is because I went in to see a doc a few weeks ago to get a certificate for taking a day off work, I had experienced what I expect was anxiety which I've never felt before, anyway I see him for 5 minutes and he gives me a script for 10mg Lexapro even though I did not ask for any kind of prescription, hell I didn't even mention medication. It's part of a larger generic medical centre where you never see the same doc twice so he didn't know anything about me beyond file notes. I had been in earlier to get a referral letter to see a therapist I have an appointment to see as it's a requirement of theirs but I didn't go into detail beyond answering a question on sleep patterns and mood, that doc wrote the letter, gave me a thyroid test and noted it on my file. Now there certainly are side effects of depression that I would like gone, it's exceptionally unproductive at best, but I question the cost. Clearly that doctor wasn't being helpful by throwing pills at me, although that doesn't make it an automatically bad solution.

I once called a psychiatrist and the devil said he charged $1000 for initial consultation. WTF! :steam: I needed help, desperately, but not at these prices.

Ouch!

I have comorbid anxiety and depression, and am currently on 20mg Lexapro. I had many many misgivings about medication and changing medications, even when they didn't work. I guess most of this stemmed from my fears about "losing my personality" and "damaging my creativity" etc. Mostly, I was afraid that my doctor would over-medicate me. However, he always listened to what I had to say, and allowed me to basically take charge of my own treatment and make my own decisions about the various options that he presented to me. So I guess I would say that I'm very lucky in having a sensible, supportive doctor.

So I guess my viewpoint is that while it may be oversold, but there are still situations that warrant antidepressants. In these situations, I'd be suspicious if the doctor didn't present all the options, talk about the side-effect profiles in the literature and pricing, and talk about a treatment plan that is complemented by lifestyle change and therapy. I would be even more suspicious if after finding the right medication and working on the treatment plan, he/she didn't talk about long-term goals to get off the medication.

I was pretty apprehensive when he wanted to give me a script, I straight away asked about the side effects, he gave a few quick things like nausea and headaches etc then basically sold it as a good and easy option I had. I'm not at all confident that he did it because it's the right option for me. Something like 5-HTP for instance may have been a better choice, but nothing else was mentioned.

At the end of the day I'm happy to educate myself so I can make my own informed decisions about what's right for me but his approach was disconcerting.

So I immediately stopped taking it because a) I hadn't been given the option of an informed choice and b) I loathed and detested the thought that my emotions were being manipulated by drugs. I wanted to be me even if that meant I often felt miserable.

The second in my twenties for pain relief and at a tiny fraction of the therapeutic dose. It turned me into a brain dead zombie and I was so out of it that I didn't realise how out of it I was til I came off the drugs a few months later.

I agree with the idea of wanting to feel like yourself, regardless of how that feels, and the idea of medication numbing a person doesn't appeal. But on the other hand I know that I'm not naturally a depressive person so I'm really not myself anyway... *shrug*

Seems for every plus there's a negative.

So antidepressants didn't work for me, but I'm certainly not against prescription drugs being used for treatment- I just think that most doctors are close minded about the options that they have for treatment and only look at the most obvious ones

Totally agree. Also, your experience sounds scary!

Considering the potential for (common) adverse effects when considering SSRIs/SNRIs (e.g. weight gain, apathy, insomnia, sexual dysfunction, etc.) I am pre-disposed to encourage folks to try all other options first (exercise, better nutrition, counseling/CBT, and self-exploration.

You'd be amazed at how quickly your life improves when you feel better, look better, and eliminate as many things in your life (bad job, toxic people, demanding social groups, etc.) that contribute to feelings of unhappiness.

If you feel you are being prevented from living a normal, productive, and happy life then consider meds, but do so carefully.

umpyouup:

It kinda came down to that for me.

I've done the whole eliminate negative things and embracing the positive things like exercise and good food into my lifestyle and while it certainly has an impact it's just not enough. I understand the cause of my depression and self affirmations will not help.

I'm apprehensive but I've decided to give the SSRIs a shot with close monitoring of all side effects, moods and influencing factors, whilst still keeping the negative things out and exercise in, not too sure about the food part, I'm trying to be good but I haven't had an appetite for several weeks so I'm eating only because I know I should and probably not enough as a result.

It's been 10 days and I've already seen changes in mood and some side effects. Dunno how long I'll go but I don't feel numb at all so that much is ok so far.

 

[poppy]

I was proscribed Lexapro as well. I stopped after two months because I noticed a general numbness. "Hey kids, you're lighting a fire in the living room? Oh, okay."

I don't usually take asprin for headaches or cold medicine for colds. I like to rely on my bodies own ability to heal naturally.

I did read an interesting article in I think it was Time Magazine (which I don't usually read) discussing how depression played a major role in many great leaders lives (Abraham Lincoln and Winston Churchill to name a couple). And how depression serves a natural function in our lives forcing us to slow down and become introspective. It argued that perhaps these men might not have been the great leaders they were if they had been drugged up and forced to ignore their depression.

I'm with you. Depression is a natural function, like any other emotional state, that's there to let you know when something is wrong (ie, a kick in the brain saying 'hey! something is not right in your environment so make a change, Abe Lincoln!'). And people on meds are sometimes...not themselves.

I've met a few people who are, I think, clinically depressed in the sense that medication might be the only thing that could get them to change their behaviors. Those seem to be the people who have suffered from perpetual low grade depression for years and years, and don't believe that it's even possible to feel better, therefore why even try to make changes. But that's just a guess, as I've never seen these people actually get medicated.

Well, anyway, all I said has been said in this thread in one form or another I think, so I am just casting my vote.

EDIT: Good luck Trinity! Best wishes.

 

[Kasper]

Those seem to be the people who have suffered from perpetual low grade depression for years and years, and don't believe that it's even possible to feel better, therefore why even try to make changes. But that's just a guess, as I've never seen these people actually get medicated.

That would be me. But the reason I would have never tried to make changes in regards to that was because I didn't even realise I was depressed as I've felt and acted this way since I was about 14 or so, it's taken some introspection and a lot of reading to understand it's not a natural state for me. I relate a hell of a lot to this.

As dysthymia is a chronic disorder, a person may often experience symptoms for many years before it is diagnosed, if diagnosis occurs at all. As a result, he or she tends to believe that depression is a part of their character. This, subsequently, may lead sufferers not to even discuss their symptoms with doctors, family members or friends.

 

[Halla74]

That would be me. But the reason I would have never tried to make changes in regards to that was because I didn't even realise I was depressed as I've felt and acted this way since I was about 14 or so, it's taken some introspection and a lot of reading to understand it's not a natural state for me. I relate a hell of a lot to this.

​

Trin,

How do you feel on the occasions that you do experience some sort of positive upswing in mood, whether accomplishment driven, simple life experience, or randome R&R?

Do you get a "reset" of the dysthmyia? I always get a little "buffer zone" when things go right for a change. Sometimes it is a result of hardwork, sometimes it is sheer luck, but either way it does set my gears in a different motion.

Does this make sense?