[Jungian Cognitive Functions] developing Fi

[visaisahero]

what about if your gf wanted an abortion...how does that processing go...is it a ti approach based on logic?

Here's my thought process if I were in such a scenario:

Okay, we're pregnant. That's bad. We can't support a child right now. My girlfriend (who is an INFJ) would be emotionally traumatized for life if she ever had an abortion, and I wouldn't want that for her. (To be completely honest, I wouldn't want to have to deal with that either.) Her parents would disown her if they knew she was pregnant. That would traumatize her too, because she's somewhat close to her family. Weighing the two alternatives, however, I think the former is worse than the latter. I would consult her for her opinion, and I am certain she would agree with me. (If she is uncertain, I could make the case against the former, and she would be convinced.) We ought to have the baby. My family would take her in, albeit give me a hell of a (hopefully figurative) lashing when they find out. That's okay, I shouldn't expect any less of them. The most important concerns are the well-being of my girlfriend, and the child. My sister has kids and my parents love them, so I'm sure that they could help us raise the kid and make up for any shortcomings our youth might have on the pregnancy. What is done is done, and I will do my best to be the best possible father and (eventually) husband that I can possibly be.

^that's my thought process. How do I feel about abortion in general? I think it's a sad state of affairs when you have to contemplate ending a life, but there are things that are worse in this life than death and sometimes it might be the only manageable option. I would never advocate it unless it is certain that the child's birth and life is going to be fraught with suffering, for both the child and the parent(s).

(If you're going to say I cheated, and my girlfriend's supposed to WANT an abortion, I'll tell you... you don't know my girlfriend. >_>)

BONUS ROUND!: If the baby is not mine, because she was raped- I would suggest she have the baby, and volunteer to help raise it as if it were my own. If the baby is not mine because she willingly cheated on me, I would break up with her.

 

[hilo]

The fickleness annoys Fi users, too. However, the fickleness is not Fi. Fi, rather, learns how to process the fickleness into something coherent.




Yes, very slow. Fi is slow. The way to focus it is to think in terms of what you really feel, not in terms of what you feel on the surface level.

it's the surface-level feelings that have all of the fickleness, because they seem to react randomly to whatever is right there in front of you, or to whatever is going on in your life. What is really going on is that they're often triggering a deeper truth, in Fi terms. The purpose is to find those deeper truths. Once you know they're there, and what they are, you can shape those truths. This is not the same as controlling feelings, but rather is a case of understanding feelings.

For example, you might feel jealous w/r to someone else getting more attention than you. You feel an instinctive reaction, you are tempted to correct the apparent situation. As an INTP (and me as an INTJ), we usually back off from those feelings and just kind of ignore them. We feel them, they hurt, but rather than process the feeling, we ignore it and choose to apply objectivity to make our choices.

A deeper Fi understanding might note that your emotions really mean that you like someone a lot ... or they might really mean, "Oh, this is just the petty jealousy, where you're bored and want some attention, you don't really like the person."

That is, you learn which emotions are important, by identifying them properly with Fi in the scheme of things.

Fe does the "same thing", except that it uses other people to figure out which emotions are important, by a sophisticated compare/contrast in an "objective" rather than "subjective" manner. The main difference in understanding is that with Fe, you can readily give "because" reasons for why an emotion is good or bad or important or unimportant, but with Fi, you "just know" what an emotion is, but can't really verbalize it without it sounding like random nonsense, but you can sortofkindof say that you "feel strongly" about something and you can't just accept someone else's say-so differently, for example.

Great insights. This makes a lot of sense to me. Like there's a fleeting surface-level of emotion, that is probably Fe initiated. The Fi stuff connects to that, but sometimes can be difficult to disentangle. The jealousy example makes a lot of sense. I think part of maturing as an INTP is to move out of the default mode of "all emotions are irrelevant and/or indefensible" to recognizing that yes, some can be ignored (bored and want attention), some should absolutely not be (feeling unhappy in a relationship).

 

[Fluffywolf]

Fi (for INTP's) is DANGEROUS!

Stay away from it I tell ya! Put more trust in your Ti to sort things out! Ignore your Fi!

Only bad things will come from it if you develop too much Fi as an INTP!

I know from experience. Do not do it! Or at least, don't bring it to the front lines in your life.


Basicly, for an INTP. Fi is actually like a drug. You can become addicted to it. It's so much easier than Ti. Because there aren't rules and things keeping you back. Unlike your Ti that critisizes everything you do, Fi can be justified by means of emotions. And by the gods are we good at blocking out emotions with a tiny bit of Ti! Unfortunatly this means that we don't have the same inhibitions a Fi dominant has, in order to make Fi a valuable and helpful asset in your life.

For INTP's, Fi is like hard drugs. Don't do it, it fucks up your life.


Unless you can completely block out Ti (which is very unhealthy), Fi can't be controlled and kept on a leash. You will lose perspective.

 

[sculpting]

curious...without fi how to you come to determine how you feel on such things as capital punishment or abortion?

example me?

I feel so defectively T-ish somedays. (not that T is defective-but what I do with it may be)

For capital punishment-given the lovely state of TX, we kill lots of folks-I can logically argue it is irrational based upon efficiencies. It costs much more money to execute someone that to keep them in prison for life. There is also a significant number of folks who are executed who are later found to be innocent via evidence. Execution also has not be found to deter crime signifcantly. This is how I would approach the discussion-rationally-but underneath it is based on a gut feel that killing other people is wrong-yet I would feel very uncomfortable trying to argue from the value based perspective-like I have no justification?

But this bugs me.

Do all of my arguments always rest upon unspoken values, some I am aware of but some I am not? What internal questions can I ask to identify this as I consider new issues?

Even weirder-in my own mind-why is it okay to not always defer to logic and external data? Why would it be okay to take the path of some strangely defined internal value when I can identify external rules which defy my value? In the above case-if capital punishment was not inefficient and actually was accurate-how can I legitimately argue against it? Is that argument legitimate? What degree of the human element has to be involved before my value becomes more relevant than a logical conclusion based upon fact?

Do the arguments of Ts sometimes also rest upon values that they are not consciously aware of?

I dunno about any of this stuff. But I do resonate with Motie's earlier discomfort at trying to base an argument on values. It just feels error prone.

 

[Fluffywolf]

I feel so defectively T-ish somedays. (not that T is defective-but what I do with it may be)

For capital punishment-given the lovely state of TX, we kill lots of folks-I can logically argue it is irrational based upon efficiencies. It costs much more money to execute someone that to keep them in prison for life. There is also a significant number of folks who are executed who are later found to be innocent via evidence. Execution also has not be found to deter crime signifcantly. This is how I would approach the discussion-rationally-but underneath it is based on a gut feel that killing other people is wrong-yet I would feel very uncomfortable trying to argue from the value based perspective-like I have no justification?

But this bugs me.

Do all of my arguments always rest upon unspoken values, some I am aware of but some I am not? What internal questions can I ask to identify this as I consider new issues?

Even weirder-in my own mind-why is it okay to not always defer to logic and external data? Why would it be okay to take the path of some strangely defined internal value when I can identify external rules which defy my value? In the above case-if capital punishment was not inefficient and actually was accurate-how can I legitimately argue against it? Is that argument legitimate? What degree of the human element has to be involved before my value becomes more relevant than a logical conclusion based upon fact?

Do the arguments of Ts sometimes also rest upon values that they are not consciously aware of?

I dunno about any of this stuff. But I do resonate with Motie's earlier discomfort at trying to base an argument on values. It just feels error prone.

In order to adapt to life, you'll have to give in to values here and there. There is also nothing wrong with that.

But you should trust in others teaching you those values, since it is a way to fit in for us, it should be seen as adaptive. Don't try and find those values for yourself, trying to use Fi. And always keep your Ti in the back of your head. Allow values to influence your descisions if the outcome will be better in the eyes of society, but don't conform to it completely. Leave room for speculation and change. Stay open-minded.

No Fi needed. It can all be done with Ti and a bit of common sense. Values aren't exclusively Fi. They can be chameleoned.

Basicly, what I said is: Values are pretty much bogus, if you think long and hard about them, you will find all kinds of flaws and inconsitencies with them. But I do realise that they are important to interact with the rest of our species. Thus I allow for them to be my appearance. Without any values, you'll leave a shallow and boring life.

Besides, we aren't omniscient, we aren't capable of remaining 100% pure to our Ti. (See whut I did thar? Lulz, cameo-value right there! )

 

[Fluxkom]

This problem makes a lot of sense yes, but I have no sample solution to it, as in Ti fail.

I had the luck to meet my INFJ and she has an amazing ability to understand what I feel, when I am not even realizing that I feel a thing atm. At the beginning I accused her of making only assumptions but in time when I started to look at myself objectively, I at least understood what she's talking about.

The thing is, at least with me, I am an ultimate victim to my surroundings, while my body and my mind live in a somewhat detached state. Meaning, while I stay stoic in my mind all the time, the body perceives the environment and lets me feel and empathize. For example when my girlfriend is pissed, I get pissed too very quickly without noticing it or if the environment of a restaurant for example is uncomfortable, I get uncomfortable. To me that is the epitome of a dominant perceiver, with the huge problem that I do not notice those changes, cause I dont pay attention to my body but rather think that I am in control.

It is a rather complicated conflinct and I have learned by paying attention to find out more about myself. For example you maybe now those situations in which you suddenly, while watching a movie, burst in tears. You didnt see that coming and then it just happens, stays on for a minute and then is gone. Those are the moments your bodily reactions emerged to that point that you even yourself notices them and if you watch the moments in which that happens you can devise a pattern. I for example found out that I do attach feelings to objects, which lets me appear to be iconoclastic or what's it called. I tend to regulary feel sad about things I for example donated to my sister when she was born and it was not sure if she was going to survive and I donated her a damned doll. That doll broke when she got 14 and I had to cry.

Well, I am probably not helping much, therefore my bottom line advice now: you need to talk about your feelings, in fact you need to talk about them a lot. If you do not have someone to talk, maybe try out a counsellor, they are quite good ( I heard ).

I dunno, but what I do know is talking about it, is damn good !

BAM! That rings some bells. I can totally relate to the burst to tears thing as well as the iconoplasm (who you gonna call?).

 

[yvonne]

In order to adapt to life, you'll have to give in to values here and there. There is also nothing wrong with that.

yes, i agree. being too strict isn't going to work... but rather than "giving in", i'd like to think it as adjusting your (less important) values. i think i can defend my values, if necessary, in argument. i also like to keep an open mind and i have changed my values. i have also learned to accept differences better, as i'm getting older. i don't like to preach my values to other people. they are entitled to their own.

But you should trust in others teaching you those values, since it is a way to fit in for us, it should be seen as adaptive. Don't try and find those values for yourself, trying to use Fi. And always keep your Ti in the back of your head. Allow values to influence your descisions if the outcome will be better in the eyes of society, but don't conform to it completely. Leave room for speculation and change. Stay open-minded.

but treating values that way isn't going to help positive change in society... for example, the position of women in society would never have been improved, if people hadn't questioned the common values. being interested in values doesn't have to mean closing your mind.

No Fi needed. It can all be done with Ti and a bit of common sense. Values aren't exclusively Fi. They can be chameleoned.

it can probably be done with Ti-Fe combo. i, of course, as a Fi dom, see Fi as an important tool, for me. i have found it useful to develop it, or perhaps more importantly for me, learning to control it... thinking is also very important to me, be it Te, or Ti... i suppose Fi comes in in me self-reflecting and because i think i don't know that much, so i think i need to Fi at the very end of the day, in case... i think my understanding of Fi must have improved, because earlier i didn't really trust it, but now i don't think i fear it as much as i used to...

Basicly, what I said is: Values are pretty much bogus, if you think long and hard about them, you will find all kinds of flaws and inconsitencies with them. But I do realise that they are important to interact with the rest of our species. Thus I allow for them to be my appearance. Without any values, you'll leave a shallow and boring life.

you can always find flaws and inconsistencies in logic, too, am i wrong?

Besides, we aren't omniscient, we aren't capable of remaining 100% pure to our Ti. (See whut I did thar? Lulz, cameo-value right there! )

i value Ti. Ti is the means to impersonal progress, as Fi is the means to personal...

 

[tcda]

The three fucntions I least relate to are Se, Ni and Fi, in that order (Fi being the most alien) - which makes sense.

To be honest working on Fe makes more sense, as has been said. As I understand it Fi would either be absent, or be an unconscious function. INTP's form their internal "system" based on Ti, I'm not sure I see how Fi would be useful to us even if it were possible to ocnsicously develop it.

To deal with other people's Fi, we should engage Ne-Fe, as I understand it.

 

[yvonne]

To deal with other people's Fi, we should engage Ne-Fe, as I understand it.

yes, you're probably right.

 

[Invisiblemonkey]

Fi... Not quite as big a problem for me as my Fe, but I'll do what I can. Simply put, try keeping record of your reactions in some way, shape, or form. If you're feeling especially adventurous, try experimenting on yourself by putting yourself in situations of the variety that you wouldn't understand how or why you'd react. (Provided they aren't life-or-death, or some other form of irreversible situation, but that goes without saying, in a way.) I'm not exactly recommending writing these down, just start analyzing your reactions in certain situations, preferably of your own choosing. Just don't do anything that would seriously harm the other person emotionally. I know these are very, "This-goes-without-saying" corollaries, but I want to make sure that nobody misreads this.

 

[tcda]

yes, you're probably right.

Today was a good example. An INTJ friend, who has quite prominent tert Fi , sent a message saying how much he hated it today where he lives (essentially a moral judgement against the people there).

My first reaction was, as a result of my inferior Fe which I feel as an external force "what does this guy want from me?, what can I do? Why is he telling me this? I lived there myself so why should I feel bad for him? Why is he telling me something completely unconstructive, self-pitying and judgemental; why doesn't he just either do something about the problem, or stop whining".

But then I realized, "it's important to him, the reason I feel annoyed is becase of my inferior Fe, instead, I should consciously take control of it, and use it, to sympathize". So I texted back something encouraging, sympathetic and positive - despite the fact I didn't empathize my Fe allowed me to recognize the desire for sympathy, and to express it.

 

[yvonne]

^ makes perfect sense.

my thought process would have probably been sth like this: he's probably just having a bad day. i have bad days, too. i could text something a little positive to brighten his day. then, if he still has the same problem later, he'll probably tell me and we can talk more about what's bothering him and what could be done about it.

 

[tcda]

^ makes perfect sense.

my thought process would have probably been sth like this: he's probably just having a bad day. i have bad days, too. i could text something a little positive to brighten his day. then, if he still has the same problem later, he'll probably tell me and we can talk more about what's bothering him and what could be done about it.

I would probably think the same thing actually, it's only that this guy isn't looking for solutions.

I guess difference between Fe and Fi is that Fe feels an obligation, whereas Fi depends on whether or not one empathizes with the particular "cause".

 

[yvonne]

i suppose i empathize with the feeling. people feel stuff and it's real and relative. i attempt to recognize and accept the feeling (be emotionally available/ open/ warm) and if it needs (the person is in need of/ the situation calls for...) further clarification, i try to listen and offer support.

if i notice that progress isn't happening over time, or that things are really blown out of proportion (getting into a negative loop)... i pull back to observe (i prefer to distance myself from the situation, rather than remove myself entirely, if the other person is reaching out to me). reconnection can happen later, or it can result in separation.

also here when i can't connect properly, i try to get into an honest place with my own emotions and thoughts. i have found it's enough to just be present, even if you have got no words of comfort, or you are unable to connect more for some reason.

 

[tcda]

I see. from my way of functioning it is that we should respect each other, and that includes feelings, so if someone who is your friend is in a bad way, the nature of the relationship implies that you have an obligation to try to make them feel better.

But then if they are not reciprocating but instead just keep expressing to you their feelings without engaging with constructive suggestions, then they are just being self-indulgent and abusing my sense of obligation.

So to that extent I guess that while Fe can help us engage with Fi, it has its limits.

As to whether Fi can be "developed" as a "conscious" function, I really don't know.

 

[uumlau]

I see. from my way of functioning it is that we should respect each other, and that includes feelings, so if someone who is your friend is in a bad way, the nature of the relationship implies that you have an obligation to try to make them feel better.

But then if they are not reciprocating but instead just keep expressing to you their feelings without engaging with constructive suggestions, then they are just being self-indulgent and abusing my sense of obligation.

So to that extent I guess that while Fe can help us engage with Fi, it has its limits.

As to whether Fi can be "developed" as a "conscious" function, I really don't know.

The Fi perspective is that there is no obligation such as you describe. The obligation is the Fe perspective. The notion of "making someone feel better" is nonsense in Fi-land. You can provide comfort and validation, but sadness is still sadness, and happiness is still happiness, and the feelings come from inside, and are not affected directly by external events. (External events can have an indirect effect, so indirect that the Fi user often doesn't know the "why" of the feeling.)

The Fi perspective is that feelings exist or not, they are "real" or not, they need to be expressed or not. The concept of "engaging with constructive suggestions" really doesn't work, except in those cases where Te-style suggestions (e.g., "if you cut your expenses, you won't be in such a financial bind") are offered. Any constructive suggestions that attempt to tell one who relies on Fi how to feel differently, that it isn't all that bad, etc., will go nowhere. Any such suggestions contradict the feeling. This is not "self-indulgence." About the most you can say in a negative way, and be supportive, is, e.g., "I understand how you feel, but the only way out is through" or "grin and bear it" or something similar, that the feeling, right or wrong, must be endured, but the feeling should not drive any choices. (E.g., an alcoholic craving a drink, you validate/acknowledge/understand the feeling, but reinforce that it's right not to give in, perhaps emphasizing other feelings such as pride in staying sober.)

The way to deal with an Fi-user that seems to be abusing your sense of obligation is twofold: express your sympathy, perhaps offer a story of a time when you felt similarly. In fact, all you need to say is the equivalent of "I understand." Heck, even a "Whoa, that sucks, dude - I feel for ya," goes a long way. And that's all that is needed, no further obligation. If you did it right, you'll get something like, "I know I'm being silly, but thanks for listening," as your reply.

What's the point of the Fi emoting? To get a confirmation that the feelings are "normal," and perhaps to blow off some steam, too. Fi is introverted feeling, after all. If an Fi-user is expressing feelings to you in such a way as requires sympathy, he/she is trusting you with those feelings, for a short while. Fi-users do not do that with just anyone. Even ENFPs with all their bubbliness are hiding behind the bubbles, those aren't their deepest feelings. (The forum is an exception to this ENFP rule, since more private feelings are often expressed.) All you need to do is "be there" and handle the feelings with care. In a way there is nothing to "do", no task at hand, just "be" a friend.

 

[yvonne]

Fi turns inwards for guidance... i started to develop my Fi by examining my own emotions.

there are a couple of threads here about developing Fi, if anyone is interested.

whether it is useful, or necessary to everyone, i don't know...

i suppose you could find peace with your Fe by being satisfied with trying to make someone feel better. it doesn't matter, if you didn't succeed. your friend probably really appreciates you reaching out. i think accepting the emotion is important, though. they probably can't help it and feeling guilty about not being able to be helped is not helpful

 

[tcda]

The Fi perspective is that there is no obligation such as you describe. The obligation is the Fe perspective. The notion of "making someone feel better" is nonsense in Fi-land. You can provide comfort and validation, but sadness is still sadness, and happiness is still happiness, and the feelings come from inside, and are not affected directly by external events. (External events can have an indirect effect, so indirect that the Fi user often doesn't know the "why" of the feeling.)

The Fi perspective is that feelings exist or not, they are "real" or not, they need to be expressed or not. The concept of "engaging with constructive suggestions" really doesn't work, except in those cases where Te-style suggestions (e.g., "if you cut your expenses, you won't be in such a financial bind") are offered. Any constructive suggestions that attempt to tell one who relies on Fi how to feel differently, that it isn't all that bad, etc., will go nowhere. Any such suggestions contradict the feeling. This is not "self-indulgence." About the most you can say in a negative way, and be supportive, is, e.g., "I understand how you feel, but the only way out is through" or "grin and bear it" or something similar, that the feeling, right or wrong, must be endured, but the feeling should not drive any choices. (E.g., an alcoholic craving a drink, you validate/acknowledge/understand the feeling, but reinforce that it's right not to give in, perhaps emphasizing other feelings such as pride in staying sober.)

The way to deal with an Fi-user that seems to be abusing your sense of obligation is twofold: express your sympathy, perhaps offer a story of a time when you felt similarly. In fact, all you need to say is the equivalent of "I understand." Heck, even a "Whoa, that sucks, dude - I feel for ya," goes a long way. And that's all that is needed, no further obligation. If you did it right, you'll get something like, "I know I'm being silly, but thanks for listening," as your reply.

What's the point of the Fi emoting? To get a confirmation that the feelings are "normal," and perhaps to blow off some steam, too. Fi is introverted feeling, after all. If an Fi-user is expressing feelings to you in such a way as requires sympathy, he/she is trusting you with those feelings, for a short while. Fi-users do not do that with just anyone. Even ENFPs with all their bubbliness are hiding behind the bubbles, those aren't their deepest feelings. (The forum is an exception to this ENFP rule, since more private feelings are often expressed.) All you need to do is "be there" and handle the feelings with care. In a way there is nothing to "do", no task at hand, just "be" a friend.

Thanks. The highlighted parts especially are a very interesting explanation - I had never considered Fi in those terms.

 

[eagleseven]

Fi --> Where your subconscious meets your conscious.

I suppose the easiest way to initially reach it, is through the consumption of alcohol. Drinking tends to knock out your thinking and your intution, so that all you have to work with is perception and feeling.

Once you can come to terms with understanding your subconscious Fi under the influence, it becomes much easier to recognize and engage it when sober. It still won't like coming out, though...

And yes, I do advocate experimenting with certain mind-altering chems as a means of self-discovery. From my perspective, drugs cannot add things to your brain that aren't already there.

 

[Orangey]

Fi --> Where your subconscious meets your conscious.

I suppose the easiest way to initially reach it, is through the consumption of alcohol. Drinking tends to knock out your thinking and your intution, so that all you have to work with is perception and feeling.

Once you can come to terms with understanding your subconscious Fi under the influence, it becomes much easier to recognize and engage it when sober. It still won't like coming out, though...

And yes, I do advocate experimenting with certain mind-altering chems as a means of self-discovery. From my perspective, drugs cannot add things to your brain that aren't already there.

I agree with your view on drugs, but alcohol tends to bring out my Fe more than anything else. I go into "charm" mode.