[INTP] INTPs: "Sticks in the mud"?

[Rainne]

INTP jokes sometimes create awkward silences.

 

[Unique]

Some elaboration:


I agree with burymecloser here. If someone's jokes give me a gut reaction and makes me feel hurt, that's not something cerebral that I can change by willpower alone.


He likes church. He's had positive experience when he's gone there before. He loves the music. He's told me this before. He likes everything about it, but was uncomfortable. Did you notice the *freezes up* things I had in the script in the OP? Those were meant to indicate the feeling of "Oh god, a new situation that I don't fully understand! What do I do???" Also, I never said that she did it every Easter. I said that my MOM and I do it every Easter. VERY different thing! Like I said before, PLEASE read the OP before making judgments like this.

p.s. The fact that you used the word "awful" there, when I hadn't even REMOTELY implied that in the OP, suggests to me that you're projecting your own opinion onto my dad. Please, like I said before, leave your stereotyping at the door.


You tell my dad that. He's the one that used the phrase to describe his own behavior in that situation.

In regards to your dad

Sounds like he was just social charging. Introverts (especially INTPs) need a lot of time to themselves, sometimes at inconvenient times for others

Also wanting him to go simply cause it is tradition sounds more like the "stick in the mud"

In regards to the jokes

Does "stick in the mud" really apply to the situation? All that was happening is the miscommunication that happens fairly often with INTPs and ESTJs

I agree with the person before who said we get about 20% of each others jokes

I don't see how being a stick in the mud is relevant, I don't call ESTJs a stick in the mud when they use their humor style towards me. ESTJs jokes to me are usually offensive and not funny so its not one sided

 

[EJCC]

In regards to your dad

Sounds like he was just social charging. Introverts (especially INTPs) need a lot of time to themselves, sometimes at inconvenient times for others

Also wanting him to go simply cause it is tradition sounds more like the "stick in the mud"

I never said I wanted him to go. When he talked to me about that interaction he had with the sister of the man he takes care of on Sundays, he described himself as such. It seemed to be a tradition thing - similar to what ESTJs are said to do.

In regards to the jokes

Does "stick in the mud" really apply to the situation? All that was happening is the miscommunication that happens fairly often with INTPs and ESTJs

The interaction was not with me, and therefore it does apply to the situation, imo.

I agree with the person before who said we get about 20% of each others jokes

I get all of my dad's jokes. I don't get all of my friend's jokes.

I don't see how being a stick in the mud is relevant, I don't call ESTJs a stick in the mud when they use their humor style towards me. ESTJs jokes to me are usually offensive and not funny so its not one sided

I wasn't calling you sticks in the mud. I was saying that the examples I listed seemed to point towards that conclusion, and I was wondering what other people thought of that idea.

 

[kelric]

I'm not dissing INTPs with this thread - after all, I love you guys, and I love my INTP dad and my INTP friends. It's just that these small pieces of evidence are so contrary to the stereotypes that I've heard that I felt the need to verify whether these two INTPs aren't just exceptions to some general rule. And who better to ask than the Ti/Ne folks - the masters of objectivity!

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your intent for the thread. Wasn't trying to be contrary, just trying to explain his possible point of view with regards to the church thing. But to discuss the bold above in specific, I'd say that no, this doesn't seem evidence that these INTP's are exceptions to anything -- if anything it seems entirely "in character". The sense of humor thing could apply to anybody, and I can easily see an INTP having a dry, cutting sense of humor that may not sit well with others.

But on the whole issue of rigidity vs. the INTP stereotype of being an easy-going, "yeah, okay, whatever" type. I know that for me (and I think this is typical), there's a line, and it's pretty distinct. Basically, I only have an opinion about a small subset of day-to-day things, and with anything outside of that set (or even on the edges), I'm very flexible about going whichever way, especially if someone else has a pointed preference. But inside that set? I'll push back, and the notable thing is that I'd do it in pretty much exactly the same way that your dad did with regards to the Easter thing. Not being confrontational, providing an alternative, and taking refuge in a previous commitment (or something that he can pass off as a commitment, no matter how serious it was). If my model is appropriate for his thoughts, I can easily see the "going to church" (large group, semi-social event) example being inside his set (even if it's a small set) of things he'll push back on.

Anyway... long story short D). No, I don't see these examples as contrary to even the stereotype of an INTP.

 

[tcda]

It seems like people are always stereotyping SJs as being sticks in the mud, i.e. having a certain way they think and do things that they never divert from, and that they look down on people who think/act differently. But with two of the INTPs I know, it seems as if they're more like that than the SJs I know.

Examples:

1. With my (female) INTP friend and ESFJ friend, on a road trip.
INTP: *makes a very dry, teasing joke*
Me and ESFJ: *not laughing and thinking the INTP is serious, and being mean to us*
INTP: What's wrong with you? That's like the fifteenth funny joke you haven't appreciated in the past two days! You people have no sense of humor.

^She was serious/frustrated, and not being ironic. I mention this example because many/most non-INTPs I know will adjust their style of humor based on the audience, and this particular INTP stuck with the one style the entire time, despite no one laughing.

2. My INTP dad, who never goes to church (where my mom and I are in the choir) on Easter even though he's religious, talking with the older sister of the autistic man he takes care of every Sunday morning.
Sister: You know, since it's Easter, why don't you take the morning off? You can go to the Easter service.
Dad: Uh... *freezes up*
Sister: It's no problem. You can be with your family for more of the day.
Dad: Um... *still frozen up a bit* no thank you.
Sister: Really, it's no problem. Go ahead.
Dad: Really, no thank you.
Sister: You could take my brother with you.
Dad: I'll take your brother... but it won't be to church. It'll be to do what we usually do.

He made all these excuses to me about that interaction, like how he doesn't know how all the ceremonial stuff works (the church in question is Episcopal), but even he recognized that it was REALLY because he's a self-described "stick in the mud" (which is where I got the thread title from), and that even though he doesn't really have an Easter tradition (more like a Sunday Routine), he's uncomfortable making a new one.


I'm not dissing INTPs with this thread - after all, I love you guys, and I love my INTP dad and my INTP friends. It's just that these small pieces of evidence are so contrary to the stereotypes that I've heard that I felt the need to verify whether these two INTPs aren't just exceptions to some general rule. And who better to ask than the Ti/Ne folks - the masters of objectivity!

She sounds more like an INTJ. INTP's tend to be "chamaeleons" and adapt our sense of humour/style of communication for others. Unless we have really run out of patience.

 

[Grungemouse]

INTP jokes sometimes create awkward silences.

Either that, or a shocked silence. My ESTP brother's politically incorrect jokes have been incorporated into my sense of humour.

Personally, I can be a stick in the mud if I'm forced to make a decision omgrightaway, when I have little/no time to think. If I'm left to think about it, I'll likely say yes; badgering for immediate response will result in a "No" 100% of the time. This is how I'm considered a "stick in the mud", with the extraverts of my life.

 

[cafe]

If there are any days my INTP and I want to avoid church, they are Mother's Day and Easter. Not good days to eat out, either. Too. Many. People.

 

[jenocyde]

I wish I could get my INTP to stop telling his corny jokes that are just not funny. He cracks himself up on a daily basis while I sit there and glare at him.

When he met my ESFJ sis-in-law, there was a lot of drama and family gossip initiated by her because she didn't get the fact that his deadpan delivery was his way of joking and not some arrogant, pompous rude remarks directed at her.

The thing is that he can be a stick in the mud, for sure. When it comes to things that he's not interested in. Sure. I guess we can all be like that, but I normally make an effort to put on a good face even when I am dying inside of boredom or whatever - if it's important to someone I care about. I try to not make every moment about me and my needs. He makes no such effort. He is like a child, very expressive. If he doesn't like something, no one is happy. Maybe it's the inferior Fe.

He often talks about how he sees no point in socializing, so I stopped forcing him to do it unless it's really important to me. And I tell him that I will leave his ass if he mopes on the one time I bring him out of the house. He's no longer a stick in the mud.

 

[miss fortune]

I remember quite a few past conversations involving me, an infp friend and an intp friend that went similar to this...

INFP- I was reading something about ghosts today and I really want to go to a haunted house!

me- oooh! I know where a good one is if anyone has a set of boltcutters!

INTP- I have a set out in the shed...

me- I'll go get them!

INFP- and it's perfectly dark now, and the moon is out... lets take my car so that we can take the dog too! dogs are supposed to be good at picking up on the presence of spirits!

INTP- does this mean that I'll have to leave the porch?

:rolli: see... they can be SUCH killjoys sometimes!

:yim_rolling_on_the_

 

[JocktheMotie]

lol @ some of the INTP responses in this thread. Way to get caught on the details of the anecdotes and miss the main point. Some INTPs you are.

Anyways, all types can and will exhibit the entire range of human behavior. The difference will be in that person's cognitive justifications and processes for that behavior. For an INTP, they can certainly be a stick in the mud when faced with situations they don't think offer them any real possibility of learning something new. Or, they're just bums.

While your first example is a tad bizarre in that she wasn't reflecting the interaction styles of the group [INTPs do this a lot], your second example is a case where the INTP has made up his mind and simply will not budge.

SJs probably can be sticks in the mud simply because they tend to not do things that are unfamiliar, because they don't expect they will enjoy them based on what they know they enjoy. INTPs may be the opposite, in that they will avoid the familiar if they think everything of use has already been extracted from it.

 

[jenocyde]

Way to get caught on the details of the anecdotes and miss the main point. Some INTPs you are.

Par for the course, for the ones who don't exercise their aux functions...

 

[Totenkindly]

Anyways, all types can and will exhibit the entire range of human behavior. The difference will be in that person's cognitive justifications and processes for that behavior. For an INTP, they can certainly be a stick in the mud when faced with situations they don't think offer them any real possibility of learning something new. Or, they're just bums.

That.

Especially when there's a Ti+Si combo in play, "mudsticking" is more likely to occur.

For INTP:
- Doesn't want to be bothered / doesn't want to invest energy in something imagined as boring or intrusive or controlling in some way.
- Is insensitive to the emotional/relational needs of others or the impact of their refusal on the relationship.
- Doesn't like to look incompetent at something or look "dumb."

SJs probably can be sticks in the mud simply because they tend to not do things that are unfamiliar, because they don't expect they will enjoy them based on what they know they enjoy. INTPs may be the opposite, in that they will avoid the familiar if they think everything of use has already been extracted from it.

Yup. Thank you for clarifying an example of how, while the behavior might look the same, the motivation can be different.

 

[EJCC]

lol @ some of the INTP responses in this thread. Way to get caught on the details of the anecdotes and miss the main point. Some INTPs you are.

Anyways, all types can and will exhibit the entire range of human behavior. The difference will be in that person's cognitive justifications and processes for that behavior. For an INTP, they can certainly be a stick in the mud when faced with situations they don't think offer them any real possibility of learning something new. Or, they're just bums.

While your first example is a tad bizarre in that she wasn't reflecting the interaction styles of the group [INTPs do this a lot], your second example is a case where the INTP has made up his mind and simply will not budge.

SJs probably can be sticks in the mud simply because they tend to not do things that are unfamiliar, because they don't expect they will enjoy them based on what they know they enjoy. INTPs may be the opposite, in that they will avoid the familiar if they think everything of use has already been extracted from it.

This response, Jennifer's, and the examples listed by others previously, have really helped, and pretty much answered my question.

Thanks guys! You showed me that I wasn't crazy after all, lol.

 

[MacGuffin]

LOL, only in SJ-land is "a stick in the mud" proven by its opposite!

 

[INTPness]

To the other previous posters on this page:

Firstly... y'all need to read the OP a little more clearly. I recognize that some of you, e.g. kelric, meant well in your comments, and I appreciate it, but that type of discussion is not what this thread is about.

What matters here is the broad statement, and not the little details.

Thirdly, please do me a favor and leave your bias at the door. Don't interpret this as yet another SJ-NT conflict, or, even worse, "those SJs being dense, stupid and ignorant again". That's not even remotely what this is. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

lol @ some of the INTP responses in this thread. Way to get caught on the details of the anecdotes and miss the main point. Some INTPs you are.

Par for the course, for the ones who don't exercise their aux functions...

I'd like to enter a guilty plea. I realized I wasn't on point about half-way through my post and just figured I'd go ahead and complete my thoughts. I ranted a bit because communications with SJ's are some of the most perplexing and confusing things that happen in my daily life. I want to understand them better and I want to get along with them better, but we're often just worlds apart. It's frustrating.

Back to the point at hand: I think INTP's appear to be sticks-in-the-mud to many people, because we are so iconoclastic and non-conformist. That, coupled with people not always getting our humor, we can definitely come off as killjoys.

And this might sound kind of strange, but I don't see myself as "set in my ways" as much as I am just determined to "not be set in other people's ways". I often find myself trying to slip out of any kind of mold that someone might be casting me in.

I remember an instance where an ExFJ was planning this big event and she was telling me what my "role" was going to be in the whole thing. I was like, "role? what if I don't even show up? then what?" She says, "You have to go! It's important. You WILL be there and this will be your role." The more that continued, I just finally said, "I'm just going to tell you flat out that I'm not coming. So you'll have to find someone else to fill the role."

She was mad and actually made a remark similar to calling me a "stick-in-the-mud". So, yeah, I think other's see us that way a lot.

 

[ZPowers]

I'm not sure how much of this "look, those are just details stuff" is aimed at me, but . . . Geez, you make a joke about how you think church is boring (a common opinion, I'm fairly certain) and people start acting like you killed the last of the pandas. Someone can make a joke about a comment in a Presidential debate without having it reflect how they feel about the overall issue, you know. I feel like some of you must listen to standup comedy (not that I'm as funny as a professional comedian) and just be constantly annoyed they're nitpicking and/or not addressing the larger issue. "Um, of course the DMV is slow. Every person in a community has to be served by a single location with limited resources! It's a fairly large burden!" "Airline food is the result of cost/storage abilities, plus you need to be able to prepare food for hundreds of people in a very short time! The rest of the service was very satisfactory!"

Regardless, here's my more in-depth thoughts on this subject:

A) I don't usually tailor many aspects of myself for other. This includes my beliefs, general demeanor, or sense of humor. My friend told me the other day that he and another friend agreed the reason they immediately liked because I was "completely honest" and "one of the genuine people he's ever met" from the very first meeting. That may also be the reason I don't have a huge number of friends, but I don't really care.

B) If there's something I don't really want to do, and I don't see much real benefit in doing it, then I tend to just not, even if I like the people I may be doing it with. But when I do go out with friends, I'm generally up for anything and very much go-with-the-flow guy. Minor problems usually annoy me less than almost any of my friends, and I'm more open to a sudden changes in plan without stressing about it. If someone calls me, and I'm not doing anything and says "wanna go do X", if I don't like X, I'm probably not gonna do it. If they say "wanna go do Y", even if Y is a pretty major thing or will even take up a full weekend or more, I'll probably wind up doing it if there isn't a really good reason not to. Based on the fact your dad never goes to church, I kind of doubt he's that into it, even if he is religious. If you say to your family sometime "Hey, let's go out to eat tonight" or "let's see a movie" or something, I'd bet there's a good chance he'd say "yeah, okay" maybe before anyone else in your family.

 

[93JC]

That's totally dependent on one's perspective.

Well duh... I don't deny the fact Easter services is about the last place I'd ever want to go.

 

[EJCC]

LOL, only in SJ-land is "a stick in the mud" proven by its opposite!

Uh... Do you mean that in a good way or a bad way?

I'd like to enter a guilty plea. I realized I wasn't on point about half-way through my post and just figured I'd go ahead and complete my thoughts. I ranted a bit because communications with SJ's are some of the most perplexing and confusing things that happen in my daily life. I want to understand them better and I want to get along with them better, but we're often just worlds apart. It's frustrating.

Back to the point at hand: I think INTP's appear to be sticks-in-the-mud to many people, because we are so iconoclastic and non-conformist. That, coupled with people not always getting our humor, we can definitely come off as killjoys.

And this might sound kind of strange, but I don't see myself as "set in my ways" as much as I am just determined to "not be set in other people's ways". I often find myself trying to slip out of any kind of mold that someone might be casting me in.

I remember an instance where an ExFJ was planning this big event and she was telling me what my "role" was going to be in the whole thing. I was like, "role? what if I don't even show up? then what?" She says, "You have to go! It's important. You WILL be there and this will be your role." The more that continued, I just finally said, "I'm just going to tell you flat out that I'm not coming. So you'll have to find someone else to fill the role."

She was mad and actually made a remark similar to calling me a "stick-in-the-mud". So, yeah, I think other's see us that way a lot.

Hey, thanks INTPness! That makes a lot of sense. (Sorry I kind of snapped earlier. It was my Te wanting everyone to be on task...) Interesting how much one's outlook changes things in that sort of situation. Never thought that "not being set in other people's ways" would be the motivation there. Thanks for the insight!

 

[MacGuffin]

Uh... Do you mean that in a good way or a bad way?

I just found it amusing.

Anyway, "sticks in the mud" isn't what you are looking for in these cases (esp. the sense of humor one, that really is the opposite where you are likely the stick) - more along the lines "hard-headed", which INTPs can most certainly be.

 

[Uytuun]

Why are there no ESFPs mudwrestling in this thread?