• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[NT] The separation between emotion and rationality is a myth.

uumlau

Happy Dancer
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
5,517
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
953
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I was reading this thread of 'what do you like about feelers' and one complaint is that there is a tendency to not be logical in arguments, make emotional appeals, or base their decisions on their emotions.

So heres a question: Do you think its possible to actually step away/remove ourselves from 'emotions' when looking at an issue?
Actually, yes. INTJs do it all the time, to a fault, to the point that they believe they have no emotions, or believe that they aren't influenced by them. To be sure, when the emotions are strong enough, there is no "stepping away," but it is certainly possible to cultivate a level of detachment that allows one to do so for most issues.

This line: "I am being more rational than you" - may be an illusion for your rationality is just a set of learned ways of interacting that appear to lack emotion,
To say "I am being more rational than you" is not a rational thing to say. It is not an objective observation, but a subjective, personal criticism.

HOWEVER! are not all decisions/arguments ultimately moral and emotional ones?
Hardly. This is the one statement you make that I believe is absolutely false, unless you define yourself into tautology, by saying that "wanting to be objective and rational" is an emotional/moral desire.

TO put it in a strong way: I think people are fooling themselves if they think in life they are making 'clean' decisions, 'unemotional' arguments, or undertaking entire 'rational' courses of action.

I believe it is a matter of degree. Individuals have varying degrees of skill with respect to detaching oneself from one's emotional biases. Most of the social problems of INTJs derive from being very good at this. Also, certain matters are more obviously fully objective considerations than others, e.g., verifying objective facts often has no emotional content whatsoever, while deciding whether you want to say "yes" to a marriage proposal would have very few objective considerations.

What you say is not without a degree of truth, that many people fool themselves. But you will be fooling yourself if you apply the principle to all people. There is a tendency on the part of F's to misread NTs in this regard, imputing motives based on one's own values, rather than recognizing that some people actually make decisions based on factual considerations and minimize if not altogether eliminate the emotional considerations.
 

freedom geek

New member
Joined
May 18, 2009
Messages
158
MBTI Type
INTx
Enneagram
5
do you wish to elaborate on this? personally, i'm very interested in this subject.

Basically as there is no objective morality or values one can construct their values and morality from whatever one wants like emotion while still being rational as morals cannot be correct or incorrect except in the context of another system of reality. Emotion does not also make one irrational by its very nature. It is when emotion is used to create a model of how the world works, budging into the realm of objective reality, that it is inherently irrational.

It is not irrational to hate seeing death. It is irrational to disbelieve in evolution as it involves so much death. It is not irrational to value freedom because you don't like seeing people be oppressed. It is irrational to believe that the middle ages didn't happen because of this.
 

yvonne

A passer by
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
Messages
534
MBTI Type
INfP
Enneagram
5w4
yeah, as well as...

it is not irrational to feel that you want to be always right. it is irrational to always believe that you're right.
 

eternal recurrence

New member
Joined
Jan 23, 2010
Messages
46
MBTI Type
iNfj
Hardly. This is the one statement you make that I believe is absolutely false, unless you define yourself into tautology, by saying that "wanting to be objective and rational" is an emotional/moral desire.


What you say is not without a degree of truth, that many people fool themselves. But you will be fooling yourself if you apply the principle to all people. There is a tendency on the part of F's to misread NTs in this regard, imputing motives based on one's own values, rather than recognizing that some people actually make decisions based on factual considerations and minimize if not altogether eliminate the emotional considerations.

Yes i'm defining myself into tautology :cheers: I completely believe that ""wanting to be objective and rational" is an emotional/moral desire."

I should say also that I wasnt thinking about MBTI when posting this - it was just a thought about how people think about the human mind in general spurred by a thread...nonetheless, i disagree. What i'm postulating is that when someone thinks that they make decisions based on factual considerations and possibly eliminate emotional considerations that this seems like a delusion to me & I think some other posts in the thread side with this assertion and explain it much more eloquently than i can.

Put better than I could:

All decisions contain emotions, regardless of what that person believes. Even psychopaths
All decision involve moral/ethics if it interacts with another human, regardless if it's wise.

To make decisions that are clean, rational, and unemotional is a misnomer. In most cases, what they really mean to say that the decisions are without empathy.

Btw these replies have helped me think though this issue... so thanks.
 

uumlau

Happy Dancer
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
5,517
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
953
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Yes i'm defining myself into tautology :cheers: I completely believe that ""wanting to be objective and rational" is an emotional/moral desire."
I agree with you, here, actually.

Note that giving the tautological nature of the statement, it is still not reasonable to conclude that objectivity does not exist, but only that the reasons for choosing to be objective are not themselves objective.

I should say also that I wasnt thinking about MBTI when posting this - it was just a thought about how people think about the human mind in general spurred by a thread...nonetheless, i disagree. What i'm postulating is that when someone thinks that they make decisions based on factual considerations and possibly eliminate emotional considerations that this seems like a delusion to me & I think some other posts in the thread side with this assertion and explain it much more eloquently than i can.

The real question is whether one who has decided to be objective (for emotional reasons) actually is more or less objective. That is to say, it's possible to read too much into someone's statements/actions, when that person's focus is on trying to objectively process things, but when you translate it into your personal context, it's easy to read things that aren't really there.

Such a person might choose to do action A, which really really offends you, when to you, action B would be a much more considerate choice and reach the same objective. It is easy to conclude, especially if there is other history or context, that the person chose action A in order to spite you. You might even be right. My point is that such conclusions are often wrong: that the only "impure emotion" involved is the desire to be objective.
 

yvonne

A passer by
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
Messages
534
MBTI Type
INfP
Enneagram
5w4
but even if you don't let the "streams" affect you much in decision making, don't you still think "the lake" is affecting it? :D

it's easy to read people wrong, especially people who don't show much emotion...
 

thisGuy

New member
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
1,187
MBTI Type
entp
I was reading this thread of 'what do you like about feelers' and one complaint is that there is a tendency to not be logical in arguments, make emotional appeals, or base their decisions on their emotions.

So heres a question: Do you think its possible to actually step away/remove ourselves from 'emotions' when looking at an issue?

This line: "I am being more rational than you" - may be an illusion for your rationality is just a set of learned ways of interacting that appear to lack emotion, HOWEVER! are not all decisions/arguments ultimately moral and emotional ones?

TO put it in a strong way: I think people are fooling themselves if they think in life they are making 'clean' decisions, 'unemotional' arguments, or undertaking entire 'rational' courses of action.

people have different preference. some are more comfortable and find it easier to follow reasoning while others are more comfortable and find it easier to follow feelings. 'reasoning' is implicitly understood as logical. feelings/emotions are like gravity. everyone experiences them and knows the effect of them but noone understands the how or the why. feelings ARE logical, its just that the logic associate with feelings is not readily understood by most.

pure reason and pure feeling will result in the same conclusion. its just that 'pure' can be translated to 'mature' in the everyday world.
and as we all see in the modern world, not a lot of people are that 'mature' or even at that level of consciousness that requires separating the self (ego) from the situation and listen to those feeling unadulterated.

ive mostly seen the contrary demonstrated by INFJs
 

William K

Uniqueorn
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
986
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
For a feeler, comforting a person that's emotionally hurt by saying "Everything is going to be alright." is rational behaviour.

How is the decision made by the feeler in this case considered an emotional one? Yes, the feeler is empathizing and trying to make the other person feel better, but what emotion is driving the feeler to do this?
 

yvonne

A passer by
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
Messages
534
MBTI Type
INfP
Enneagram
5w4
not a problem, just let me know where you quote me.

another board, nothing serious. i'd mention i am quoting someone else, but agree. do you feel ok about that?
 

thisGuy

New member
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
1,187
MBTI Type
entp
How is the decision made by the feeler in this case considered an emotional one? Yes, the feeler is empathizing and trying to make the other person feel better, but what emotion is driving the feeler to do this?

being uncomfortable with negative energy? drive for harmony?


although i dont agree with FluffyW that saying "Everything is going to be alright." is rational for feelers. thats an emperical observation; i would not call it rational. as i said before, we dont really understand the full nature of feelings.
 

William K

Uniqueorn
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
986
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
being uncomfortable with negative energy? drive for harmony?

Ok, those could be the reasons that the feeler is comforting the other person.
But why choose to say "Everything is going to be alright" instead of some other more logical action that might also work to achieve the same goal? What is the "emotion" behind that choice?
 

capricorn009

New member
Joined
Nov 7, 2009
Messages
104
I agree. Sometimes people that hide their emotions and prefer a rational approach are
that way because they used to care too much and learned a few lessons
 

Saslou

New member
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
4,910
MBTI Type
ESFJ
^^ I very much agree with you.

So heres a question: Do you think its possible to actually step away/remove ourselves from 'emotions' when looking at an issue?

Depends on the issue but yes it is possible. I can be objective at times even though it is hurting like hell inside and although it feels like i am going against the grain of who i am, it possible.

Other times i am unable to suppress those emotions as i am being selfish.
 

Metamorphosis

New member
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
3,474
MBTI Type
INTJ
So heres a question: Do you think its possible to actually step away/remove ourselves from 'emotions' when looking at an issue?

Superficially, yes. In reality, no. Although, we do appear very good at it.

When we make decisions, we don't separate from our emotions. We accept or reject them. This requires an acknowledgment of our emotional state, an evaluation of its cause and effect, and a cost-benefit analysis of using the emotional state to make our decision. This means that, rather than separating from use of our emotions, we are making them an integral part of our decision making process. The difference between us and some NF types, is that we will frequently choose to take the effort to override our current emotional state in favor of a future emotional state. We're good at delayed gratification. I prefer to make correct decisions that benefit the collective long term, than to make an "emotional" decision that benefits me in the short term.

NT's just think they look cooler if they pretend to be emotionless.

This line: "I am being more rational than you" - may be an illusion for your rationality is just a set of learned ways of interacting that appear to lack emotion, HOWEVER! are not all decisions/arguments ultimately moral and emotional ones?

TO put it in a strong way: I think people are fooling themselves if they think in life they are making 'clean' decisions, 'unemotional' arguments, or undertaking entire 'rational' courses of action.

"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them." - David Hume
 

Metamorphosis

New member
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
3,474
MBTI Type
INTJ
To add to that, emotion is why we make the human nature decisions that benefit us and our kind. "Logic" is how we rationalize the decision to ourselves.

"Man is not a rational animal, he is a rationalizing animal." - Robert Heinlein
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
7,626
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
How is the decision made by the feeler in this case considered an emotional one? Yes, the feeler is empathizing and trying to make the other person feel better, but what emotion is driving the feeler to do this?

Good point. A lot of Thinkers fail to grasp the difference between emotions and feeling-values.

To emphasize the difference, Feelers may find their emotions and values at odds at times.

being uncomfortable with negative energy? drive for harmony?

The former is emotion, the latter is a feeling-value. The feeling-value is not emotion because it is based on reasoning. A conclusion has been made that harmony good and should be promoted. I don't think I need to argue the value of harmony between people and the value of inner harmony and why they make sense.

The "uncomfortable with negative energy" emotional response alerts the Feeler that a value is violated. The emotion is a signal to derive meaning from. Analyzing what caused these emotions allows the Feeler to understand why certain things are to be valued and to arrange a hierarchy of values. Speaking for myself, I don't often think in such linear terms, but that's the breakdown of what goes on.

The bottom line is, emotion is not the driver for a Feeler's decisions (although it can cloud decision making in any person). It's a signal that the Feeler can choose to listen to or not, depending on what it's saying.
 

wildcat

New member
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
3,622
MBTI Type
INTP
I was reading this thread of 'what do you like about feelers' and one complaint is that there is a tendency to not be logical in arguments, make emotional appeals, or base their decisions on their emotions.

So heres a question: Do you think its possible to actually step away/remove ourselves from 'emotions' when looking at an issue?

This line: "I am being more rational than you" - may be an illusion for your rationality is just a set of learned ways of interacting that appear to lack emotion, HOWEVER! are not all decisions/arguments ultimately moral and emotional ones?

TO put it in a strong way: I think people are fooling themselves if they think in life they are making 'clean' decisions, 'unemotional' arguments, or undertaking entire 'rational' courses of action.
A good judge does not divide the issue.
Heart does not betray reason.

It does not mean the one is the element of the other.
 
Top