[MBTI General] INTJs and time; ENTPs and space

[Provoker]

The old Immanuel Kant maintained that time is nothing but the form of the inner intuition; space cannot be known in itself but can be perceived as apparant via the external intuition. In this sense, the supposition is that time is ideational, which may be tenuous, but is nevertheless consistent with Einstein's General Theory of Relativity and many formal demonstrations. Let us assume that there is variation within humans, such that some have a preference for introverted intuition and others one for extroverted intuition. Let us also welcome the positivist's claim that theories should embrace Karl Popper's principle of falsifiability, and that a good theory entails observable manifestations, which can be checked off by succeeding scholars to see how well the theory squares with reality. The question then is: if Kant's argument is correct what observable manifestations might follow and are these manifestations an accurate reflection of reality?

My thesis is as follows. Given the INTJ's preference for introverted intuition, the INTJ will naturally have a preference for time. If one naturally has a preference for time, then one may expect INTJs to have a preference for forms of thinking and activities that give one with a good sense of time the advantage. For example, the INTJ may be more likely to engage in abstract sequential thinking rather than concrete thinking and may be better suited for music rather than visual art.

The ENTP on the other hand has a preference for extroverted intuition. From this it follows that the ENTP has a preference for space and may have their imagination prompt them to say things out of sequence and beyond the limits of their capacity for thought. The ENTP will be more likely to have a preference for forms of thinking and activities that give one with a good sense of space the advantage. For example, the ENTP may be more predisposed to engaging in imaginative thinking that is spatial and creative rather than syllogistic thinking that is abstract, sequentially ordered, and exact.
...
Discuss.

 

[Synarch]

Introverted intuition would seem to give one a good sense of one's sequence of thoughts which would lend itself to determining duration.

Extraverted intuition takes in information all at once so you could say that this requires placing that information in relationship and dealing with time only in terms of specific particularized moments.

Interesting ideas.

 

[Qre:us]

ENTP has a preference for space and may have their imagination prompt them to say things out of sequence and beyond the limits of their capacity for thought.

What do you mean by the bolded?

 

[Synarch]

What do you mean by the bolded?

I interpreted this as expressing ideas without feeling the need to form definite conclusions.

 

[Litvyak]

My experiences seem to confirm your theory. I do have a good sense of time, and I see how this could be true to most INTJs. I also absolutely favor music rather than visual art.
I'm more concerned about time than most people, it has been my greatest nemesis before, and now it is my greatest aid. I guess this dichotomy applies to ENFPs and INFJs as well, right?

(how does the theory of relativity support the idea that time is ideational?)

 

[Qre:us]

I interpreted this as expressing ideas without feeling the need to form definite conclusions.

Explorative ideas versus conclusive ideas?

Hmm, I'll wait to see if Provoker validates our interpretation.

 

[tcda]

Was Iago an INTJ then?

"How poor are they that have not patience!
What wound did ever heal but by degrees?
Thou know'st we work by wit, and not by witchcraft;
And wit depends on dilatory time."

 

[Synarch]

My experiences seem to confirm your theory. I do have a good sense of time, and I see how this could be true to most INTJs. I also absolutely favor music rather than visual art.
I'm more concerned about time than most people, it has been my greatest nemesis before, and now it is my greatest aid. I guess this dichotomy applies to ENFPs and INFJs as well, right?

(how does the theory of relativity support the idea that time is ideational?)

This is starting to sound a bit like Otto Weininger's notion of the Sadist and the Masochist: Powered by Google Docs

The sadist lives discontinuously in individual moments of time, he never understands himself: for him, every moment already has reality in itself; that is why he makes decisions easily, while the masochist can always only act on the basis of everything. The masochist is never in a position to ask himself, “How could I ever have done that? I don’t understand myself!” This is the sadist’s usual attitude to his past, which still does not, for that reason, lose its punctuated reality for him in the slightest. The sadist has the finest capacity for perception and the best memory for every momentary particular; his senses are continually engaged because all particulars have reality for him. The masochist suffers from long pauses, which he cannot fill with any reality.

These ideas have enormous resonance for me as I have often considered Sadism / Masochism as essential sexual polarities and essential approaches to this thing we call Life. Weininger sees these polarities as part of some dualistic quality in men.

 

[Synarch]

Also, Weininger: "Clocks and calendars are the greatest enigma for the masochist even as a child, because time is always the main problem for him."

 

[Synarch]

Weininger is awesome in the potency and stridency of his ideas, though some regard him as an anti-Semitic Jew if you have a problem with that:

The relationship of the sadist to the masochist is the relationship of the present to eternity. The present is the one thing over which a person has power; whoever feels
free in it will use it, like the sadist; whoever feels that he suffers in it, because it is not
real for him, seeks to awaken it to eternity. So also may the ethical striving of both be
characterised: one wants to transform all eternity into present, the other, every present
into eternity.

 

[InvisibleJim]

What do you mean by the bolded?

Just saying that your extraverted intuition allows you to leap your capacity.

 

[thisGuy]

The old Immanuel Kant maintained that time is nothing but the form of the inner intuition; space cannot be known in itself but can be perceived as apparant via the external intuition. In this sense, the supposition is that time is ideational, which may be tenuous, but is nevertheless consistent with Einstein's General Theory of Relativity and many formal demonstrations. Let us assume that there is variation within humans, such that some have a preference for introverted intuition and others one for extroverted intuition. Let us also welcome the positivist's claim that theories should embrace Karl Popper's principle of falsifiability, and that a good theory entails observable manifestations, which can be checked off by succeeding scholars to see how well the theory squares with reality. The question then is: if Kant's argument is correct what observable manifestations might follow and are these manifestations an accurate reflection of reality?

My thesis is as follows. Given the INTJ's preference for introverted intuition, the INTJ will naturally have a preference for time. If one naturally has a preference for time, then one may expect INTJs to have a preference for forms of thinking and activities that give one with a good sense of time the advantage. For example, the INTJ may be more likely to engage in abstract sequential thinking rather than concrete thinking and may be better suited for music rather than visual art.

The ENTP on the other hand has a preference for extroverted intuition. From this it follows that the ENTP has a preference for space and may have their imagination prompt them to say things out of sequence and beyond the limits of their capacity for thought. The ENTP will be more likely to have a preference for forms of thinking and activities that give one with a good sense of space the advantage. For example, the ENTP may be more predisposed to engaging in imaginative thinking that is spatial and creative rather than syllogistic thinking that is abstract, sequentially ordered, and exact.
...
Discuss.

are you going off of Kant's idea or are you trying to support it?

My thesis is as follows. Given the INTJ's preference for introverted intuition, the INTJ will naturally have a preference for time. If one naturally has a preference for time, then one may expect INTJs to have a preference for forms of thinking and activities that give one with a good sense of time the advantage. For example, the INTJ may be more likely to engage in abstract sequential thinking rather than concrete thinking and may be better suited for music rather than visual art.

define a context. i read 'good sense of time' as being efficient, nothing more...how does it tie in with 'abstract sequential rather than concrete thinking '

The ENTP on the other hand has a preference for extroverted intuition. From this it follows that the ENTP has a preference for space and may have their imagination prompt them to say things out of sequence and beyond the limits of their capacity for thought. The ENTP will be more likely to have a preference for forms of thinking and activities that give one with a good sense of space the advantage. For example, the ENTP may be more predisposed to engaging in imaginative thinking that is spatial and creative rather than syllogistic thinking that is abstract, sequentially ordered, and exact.

'beyond the limits of their capacity for thought'...what?
how can it be beyond capacity for though if it IS being said



you are trying to tie the percieved nature of ENTPs and INTJs with Kant's words and taking a few logical jumps. example...how do you go from "preference for forms of thinking and activities that give one with a good sense of space the advantage " to " the ENTP may be more predisposed to engaging in imaginative thinking that is spatial and creative rather than syllogistic thinking that is abstract, sequentially ordered, and exact. "

 

[entropie]

The theory sounds cool, the exploration of a space and its respective inhabitants of objects is a thing I feel well at home with. That's those typical moments in which time is of an essence but I would continue to find alternative ideas on how to solve a problem, to make sure we really found the best way ( In the meantime the airplane already crashed and we are all dead ).

What I dont understand is the connection between Ni and time. From observation I know from my INFJ that she's a big fan of practical time efficient solutions and I often get it in the neck when I dont watch time. Like, I ask her for example if she wants something to eat. And she says yes. 2 Hours later I stand of from the computer and another 2 hours later she has something to eat. She then comments it with: I learned its good to say 'yes I'm hungry' four hours before I will be hungry *lol*.

So what you described Provoker is definitly a thing I have witnessed in my particular case. I tho do not understand how Ni and time is connected. I thought in the case of my girlfriend that her demand for time efficiency is a Te thing but given the strongness it has in her that cant really be true, if she's supposed to be INFJ.

Well, as I said ( my girlfriend hates it when I start to finish a thought for the 3rd attempt and repeat myself ), I do not understand the possible connection between Ni and time and that's mainly because I dont understand Ni

 

[Kra]

Well, what's been stated for INTJs in the OP does hold true for me in most occasions.

An interesting notion to ponder, as usual Provoker.

 

[Qre:us]

Just saying that your extraverted intuition allows you to leap your capacity.

Capacity for?

 

[d4mselfly]

I'm definitely much more time than space oriented, and I'm especially drawn to music. As far as art goes, I love drawing and have always been a decent artist, but I enjoy the process of sketching and colouring/inking much more than simply looking at artwork — perhaps because of the temporal component.

I'm curious if this might also be applied to other art mediums like film or photography. The pacing and arrangement of shots and clips are temporal, while careful cropping and the ability to lock scenes in a photograph/storyboard/etc. so that they "fit" are very spatial. I love taking photos, but I can never seem to agree with myself on how to arrange the subject in the frame while for others finding that sweet spot is completely natural.

 

[ThatGirl]

Excellent thread.

I wrote a paper last semester about time and its utilization for psych class. I swear this pertains.

The teacher had said that people should live mostly in the present. A little in the past a little in the future. I wrote a counter argument. That all aspects of time pertain is some situations. While we cannot control our situations we can control our perception. Utilizing the past, for experience sake, the future, for goodness sake, and the present as it is the clay in our hands. The present is what we are working with now but has no bearing on what was or what is to come, outside our next action. This is what I wrote about.

The way it pertains is this. The Nt skips between time. Time is subjective. For every situation there is a different time component one should act within. Everything has a life span. Some things cycle others die. Reborn, renewed in various contexts. But the intelligent person is not one that waits, until the time is right, not the one that goes off unknowingly. It is knowing in what time your time is required. What can wait and what should be acted upon.

Impulsiveness or patience is not a factor of intuition, but of time itself. And, our understanding of that time. This is intelligence 101.

 

[Venom]

as a Ni child (ENFJ), I really like this idea!

1. It actually matches up with the socionics functions (Ni deals with time, Ne deals with 'current'/atemporal possibilities and imagination).

2. There is an exercise on the INFJorINFP website about Ni and Ne. It asks you to imagine yourself "in time". The Ni users supposedly see themselves moving through time (ie the space is static and the variable is time). The Ne individuals supposedly see time moving past their stationary self (ie the time of 'now' is static, and the space is what changes).

3. If I read histories of ideas (inventions, beliefs, philosophies, ideologies), I can't help but see it all laid out as something dynamic, with everything being "true" to its respective period. I imagine Ne might instead treat all of these as distinct possibilities to be explored 'now' in the space of possibilities.

 

[jenocyde]

What do you mean by the bolded?

I was going to ask the same thing. And ask for an example of the "art" since he gave a music example for INTJ but none for us.

My thesis is as follows. Given the INTJ's preference for introverted intuition, the INTJ will naturally have a preference for time. If one naturally has a preference for time, then one may expect INTJs to have a preference for forms of thinking and activities that give one with a good sense of time the advantage. For example, the INTJ may be more likely to engage in abstract sequential thinking rather than concrete thinking and may be better suited for music rather than visual art.

The ENTP on the other hand has a preference for extroverted intuition. From this it follows that the ENTP has a preference for space and may have their imagination prompt them to say things out of sequence and beyond the limits of their capacity for thought. The ENTP will be more likely to have a preference for forms of thinking and activities that give one with a good sense of space the advantage. For example, the ENTP may be more predisposed to engaging in imaginative thinking that is spatial and creative rather than syllogistic thinking that is abstract, sequentially ordered, and exact.
...
Discuss.

Does this mean that you think we are better suited for visual art? Why is music less abstract than visual art?

I am both an aural and a visual artist. I don't understand the distinction you've made. With music, are you speaking solely of rhythm and relating that to your definition of time? Do you also equate time with a sense of pacing, as well (e.g., the written word and film making)?

I'm not quite sure if you are talking about the length of time it takes to work on a project, or the sense of time within the project (timing, pacing).

In addition, when speaking of functions, I see Te being more related to time (efficiency, order) and Ti being more related to space (analysis, depth) like entropie said. And I see Ni being more linear (vision) and Ne being more non-linear (patterns).

 

[SolitaryWalker]

The old Immanuel Kant maintained that time is nothing but the form of the inner intuition; space cannot be known in itself but can be perceived as apparant via the external intuition. In this sense, the supposition is that time is ideational, which may be tenuous, but is nevertheless consistent with Einstein's General Theory of Relativity and many formal demonstrations. Let us assume that there is variation within humans, such that some have a preference for introverted intuition and others one for extroverted intuition. Let us also welcome the positivist's claim that theories should embrace Karl Popper's principle of falsifiability, and that a good theory entails observable manifestations, which can be checked off by succeeding scholars to see how well the theory squares with reality. The question then is: if Kant's argument is correct what observable manifestations might follow and are these manifestations an accurate reflection of reality?

My thesis is as follows. Given the INTJ's preference for introverted intuition, the INTJ will naturally have a preference for time. If one naturally has a preference for time, then one may expect INTJs to have a preference for forms of thinking and activities that give one with a good sense of time the advantage. For example, the INTJ may be more likely to engage in abstract sequential thinking rather than concrete thinking and may be better suited for music rather than visual art.

The ENTP on the other hand has a preference for extroverted intuition. From this it follows that the ENTP has a preference for space and may have their imagination prompt them to say things out of sequence and beyond the limits of their capacity for thought. The ENTP will be more likely to have a preference for forms of thinking and activities that give one with a good sense of space the advantage. For example, the ENTP may be more predisposed to engaging in imaginative thinking that is spatial and creative rather than syllogistic thinking that is abstract, sequentially ordered, and exact.
...
Discuss.

Your method is on the right track. You're treating type as a cognitive faculty and establishing a temperament's proclivities on the basis of how people tend to think rather than the superficial, non-cerebral behavioral traits they exhibit.

I would agree that an Ni type has a natural proclivity to engage in abstract thought that is not dependent on what is immediately observable in the external world. That is resultant of the fact that Ni is by definition more easily stimulated by the cognitive content rather than the external world. Since vice versa holds true for the Ne type, he has natural tendency to have his imagination stimulated by what is immediately observable.

I should warn you however, that you ought to ensure to safeguard your theory from the inference that determines a thinker's type on the basis of his philosophical or scientific conclusions. An Ne type can easily arrive at a conclusion that feels very intuitive to an Ni type and counter-intuitive to his own type. He could do so for extra-typological reasons such as the conviction that this belief is correct or that it will earn him practical rewards. Although you did not make this mistake, as you did not type any of the referenced thinkers, it must be clarified that there is a significant difference between a description of a certain cognitive function and a biographical reference to an intellectual's type. In other words, just because Kant for example displays ideas that seem intuitive to an Ni type, it does not follow that he truly is an Ni type. To know his type we would need biographical information on him that will evince that he propounded the ideas that he did for typological reasons, or by following through on the inclinations of his temperament rather than due to extrinsic circumstances.

My remark was not a correction of your views but merely a supplemental point to what you have already established.