[NT] Prove yourself

[Thursday]

"The only difference between genius and insanity is success"

Why should the world take the NT intellectual as seriously as they take themselves? Use objective, real-world (sensor) benchmarks.

Because an individual takes himself in any manner, the world must acknowledge him as such. If others resist, it is of no consequence since time and the will of the individual shall shape the fabric of "reality" or how others see him due to how fervantly he views himself. Not to say that delusion will make others deluded too, but to say that when someone puts such force into being one way, the natural forces of the world tend to side with the more just and fervant of dynamics, like a tree that grows upright but was raised in a windy territory that blows to the left, now the tree leans/grows to the left.

 

[fill]

Just so we're clear, none of you (besides FluffyWolf) will answer this because of how the question was worded?

In a way - yes. Because you asked us a "why" question, which hardly ever has an answer most people can understand, nor do I have an answer for you; I can't prove my worth - you'll have to do that for me.

If that is the case, it brings up a different question--can you dismiss tangible "real world" problems or questions the same way? Is that a working strategy?

I can, yes. But I'll fail, so I don't. This is where I (maybe other ENTPs, too) tend to bullshit if we don't deem the situation important enough to take seriously.

 

[uumlau]

Just so we're clear, none of you (besides FluffyWolf) will answer this because of how the question was worded?

If that is the case, it brings up a different question--can you dismiss tangible "real world" problems or questions the same way? Does that really work?

Depends on the problem.

The lack of answer is more about the lack of clarity of the question. You want a subjective "proof". Are you just asking whether we accomplish things in the real world? Or are you asking how NT views the world?

NTs aren't obviously different from other types until you really start talking and communicating with us. Some of us are lazy bums. Others of us run large organizations. Some of us are happily single, others of us have large families. Type has nothing to do with "success" one way or the other. Type is just a particular way of perceiving and judging the world, no more, no less.

Just because we're NT doesn't mean we have neither Sensing nor Feeling. Just as your being S doesn't mean you have no intuition. Never mind the classic typing problem between ISTP and INTJ (both have Ni) and INTP (both have Ti).

As for your main question, if FluffyWolf is the only one who gave an acceptable answer, notice that his answer is very reluctant, answering the gist of your question, all the while saying that your question really doesn't have an answer.

In fact, your question is a good example of what MBTI is for: the problem isn't that you don't have a valid question, but you're going to have a difficult time asking it, because of your different way of perceiving and evaluating the world. Your standards for success or proof may or may not be another's standards.

 

[Amargith]

In a way - yes. Because you asked us a "why" question, which hardly ever has an answer most people can understand, nor do I have an answer for you; I can't prove my worth - you'll have to do that for me.



I can, yes. But I'll fail, so I don't. This is where I (maybe other ENTPs, too) tend to bullshit if we don't deem the situation important enough to take seriously.

But does that bullshitting eventually stall you enough time in order to succeed in the end? If yes, how do you go about that? And why do you consider it succes? What do you consider succeeding? And is that genius or ...sheer luck and half-assing it? Questions, questions....

 

[fill]

But does that bullshitting eventually stall you enough time in order to succeed in the end? If yes, how do you go about that? And why do you consider it succes? What do you consider succeeding? And is that genius or ...sheer luck and half-assing it? Questions, questions....

Hah, I don't call bullshitting success whatsoever, so I do this if I don't feel my hard work in a situation will yearn success (which, by my definition is: doing better than nearly everyone and being recognized for it).

This reminds me of a quote from the show Community.

"The funny thing about being smart is that you can get through most of life without having to do any work." - Jeff

I've had many circumstances where I realize the hilarity/stupidity/nonsensicality of a situation and see it as an opportunity for countless possibilities, which usually aren't very productive - but if my unproductive work isn't seen as any more productive than actually productive work, I find it quite difficult to take it seriously.

So - yes - I will incessantly bullshit people who show me signs of never appreciating me. "All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies." -Bokonon (Cat's Cradle, Vonnegut)

 

[INTPness]

No doubt.

I'd still offer this: a given SP builds houses. He installs flooring, he's a roofer, he lays tile, he's a framer, etc. He makes our homes physically sturdy and aesthetically appealing. And he does a great job.

But, ironically, most of the advances in technology that continue to happen - the advances that give us "modern" homes with modern amenities (instead of log cabins) are being conceived in the minds of a dreaming NT or highly educated engineers who believe in an idea, etc, etc. I'm talking about the big advancements in how buildings are constructed, the types of appliances we use, the newer amenities that many of us have in our homes - solar panels, computers, home security systems, low energy appliances, ad finitum. The list is a long one.

Without the NT, these things just don't exist and we're stuck in 1938. The SP installs these things and you'll often hear him moaning, "What genius designed this piece of crap? Obviously someone who has never installed it!" Yet, the NT's continue to create these advances while the SP continues to be the installer of them. Why anyone would bemoan these NT contributions is beyond me.

I say NT's need SP's and SP's need NT's. NT's need SP's to "apply" it, but NT's are the ones thinking of it, testing it, and designing it. Why does one have to be more important or "successful" than the other?

And if it's about "success" as society defines it, you can have it. With that said, the guy who lives on the huge parcel of land on the outskirts of town with the huge house and is always being talked about by everyone else in town...9 times out of 10 that guy is going to be an NT.

 

[theadoor]

I wanna see the cats fighting, if you know what I mean.

 

[Kalach]

"The only difference between genius and insanity is success"

Why should the world take the NT intellectual as seriously as they take themselves? Use objective, real-world (sensor) benchmarks.

Dad?

 

[INTPness]

Dad?

 

[Jonny]

Proof: your question is asking one to "prove" a subjective standard using "objective, real-world" evidence.

Your query fails, a priori.

Na. He need only define success. Here, I'll inject a definition from my macbook pro.

success |səkˈses|
noun
• the accomplishment of an aim or purpose : the president had some success in restoring confidence.
• the attainment of popularity or profit : the success of his play.
• a person or thing that achieves desired aims or attains prosperity : I must make a success of my business.
• archaic the outcome of an undertaking, specified as achieving or failing to achieve its aims : the good or ill success of their maritime enterprises.

I've aimed to achieve the rank of Eagle Scout, and done so.
I've aimed to lose weight and get into shape, and done so.
I've aimed to steal a girl from her boyfriend of four years, and done so.
I've aimed to do well in school, and retain what I've learned in my classes, and done so.
I've aimed to never drive while under the influence of alcohol, and have done so (so far).
Etc.

Should he not be satisfied with my definition, he might just take the time to better refine his demands.

 

[entropie]

"The only difference between genius and insanity is success"

Totally depends on how many people you need in your world to measure your success and vice versa. And vice versa means: totally depends on how many worlds you need to measure people.

White Wine forver !

 

[Katsuni]

Success can be measured in many ways; whot were yeu seeking is the more interesting question.

Was it life, liberty, love, money, or fame?

Some of these things can't be properly quantified, yet are deemed valid goals in life.



That being said, I've done some useful things, some nice things, some things which could be quantified, but why bother? I'm still young and others have had more time to do the same things better, or had opportunities presented to them that I have yet to have access to.

I haven't rescued anyone from a burning building - this is largely due to the fact that I have never encountered a burning building in the first place.

I have never worked my way to the top of the corporate chain - I did however repair the damages caused to roughly 26,000 accounts in a company that was actively trying to go bankrupt and felt it could do so at the expence of its' customers.

I haven't reached my dream goal of becoming a lead game designer for blizzard; but then again I'm only just starting that path and am still in college, learning whot I need to in order to take that entry level position, getting the contacts I need to grow past that. I likely won't stand any chance of getting to that goal for a good 15-20 years regardless of how much pure win I have; if I did everything 130% beyond whot was expected, it would still take nearly as long as I've been alive in time beyond where I am now, to reach that lofty goal.

In the end, success is a poor measuring stick; is rates experience and opportunity, luck and fate, not the individual.

As I can comprehend this fact, I'm afraid by society's standards, who have yet to realize their failing, that I am indeed quite mad. Insane. Beyond redemption.

And I'm alright with that. Yeur question merely shows that yeu have not learned anything in life thus far, and that quantitative evidence is yeur king; the almighty dollar. A statue in yeur honour. A history book to say yeur name.

In the end, all will burn. The sun will engulf the earth as it grows to a red giant. Everyone yeu've ever known shall die. Every textbook will be lost. Every statue will crumble. Every history will be gone forever. Everything yeu've ever done meant nothing.

The quantitative 'value' of someone is meaningless, I'm afraid.

Only the values they themselves hold matter; if yeu seek love, and find it, true endearing love that lasts and endures, then yeu have done whot the philosophers of the world have only dreamed of. If yeu are comfortable in yeur existence and can retire without worry of funds, then yeu are as wealthy as the richest billionaire on earth. If yeu can hold yeur own flesh and blood, yeur child, in yeur arms, yeu have more power to change a life than the most totalitarian dictator could ever muster.

The numbers, they do not matter. 1 is the greatest of numbers, and the truest of form. One life is a beautiful thing; a billion is a statistic. One love is true to the heart; a thousand roses is no less than a thousand and one. One child is the world, yet the world sees 40,000 children born daily.

So I fear, yeur question is lost to yeu. Yeu must learn to step outside that narrow boundry and become acquainted with that which truly matters; a number on a pad of paper is not among the greatest of things in life.

And for this understanding, I am insane. And yet, also, the whole world is mad, not I.

 

[Tamske]

"The only difference between genius and insanity is success"

Why should the world take the NT intellectual as seriously as they take themselves? Use objective, real-world (sensor) benchmarks.

If doing your job well is good enough for an SJ, it's good enough for me.
I'm a math and physics teacher. People do understand abstract things because of me. There are even students of me who like maths and physics.

 

[verdeviola]

Perseverance, stubbornness and being right.

 

[visaisahero]

"The only difference between genius and insanity is success"

Why should the world take the NT intellectual as seriously as they take themselves? Use objective, real-world (sensor) benchmarks.

I don't take myself seriously.

Do blowjobs and wet panties count as objective, real-world (sensor) benchmarks? I get quite a lot of those...

 

[Poki]

"The only difference between genius and insanity is success"

Why should the world take the NT intellectual as seriously as they take themselves? Use objective, real-world (sensor) benchmarks.

You can easily not be successful, but continue to try many different methods. Its like a mad scientist which is the poster boy for INTJ. So while the mad scientist may be a genius, frankenstein still doesnt exist, hence a life of failures driving him to appear insane. The insanity is but a mental issue he now has to deal with driven by lack of success, so is he actually insane or will it be turned around if and when he does succeed, but in the movie he is still kinda mental when he does succeed so...from a (sensor) benchmark, your statement "The only difference between genius and insanity is success" is semi-true, but really pointless.

 

[Shimmy]

I'm definitely in the insanity spectrum, since I don't even consider myself all that successful. I'm working on it though, it'd be a shame to waste my potential.

"The only difference between genius and insanity is success"

You're quoting it wrong, see my signature.

 

[Provoker]

The simplest proof I can conjour is as follows. I think. What thinks exists; for to doubt this is itself to think. Therefore, I exist.

 

[Misty_Mountain_Rose]

...Thing is about being an NT is that you know you could be doing a lot more a lot better.

But does that bullshitting eventually stall you enough time in order to succeed in the end? If yes, how do you go about that? And why do you consider it succes? What do you consider succeeding? And is that genius or ...sheer luck and half-assing it? Questions, questions....

I'm loathe to answer ye Amargith dear, but only because you use your knowledge to crack the crazy NT's open a bit more with each new insight. You're so awesome at it though that I feel you deserve an answer.

* "But does that bullshitting eventually stall you enough time in order to succeed in the end?" *

Quite often, yes. I've found that sometimes all the world needs is a new shiny toy to distract them and then life goes on. Today's drama is yesterdays news. I have been called (both by myself and by... well, by INTPs) a terrific bullshitter. The thing is though... I don't necessarily think its bullshit. The ideas come from SOMEWHERE and just because I can't recall where I heard something or why I know something doesn't mean I'm WRONG... it just means that at some point, something planted in my mind about whatever the topic is and I am at least 80% sure that I know what I'm talking about. I don't ever lie just to 'prove a point' or 'win an argument'. That would be stupid.

* "If yes, how do you go about that?" *

It isn't really a conscious decision. I don't go 'Haha, watch me BS this guy into giving me my way'... I just kind of pull coherent knowledge out of God-knows-where, having somehow understood it or heard it at some point,

A good example... I often can hear music in a genre I NEVER (and I mean NEVER) listen to, and somehow still know who the artist is. Somewhere in my oblivious world I've maybe seen a newspaper ad, heard a commercial, saw them on the news or caught half a minute on a late night show... SOMETHING to say 'Oh yeah, thats so-and-so' but have no damn clue HOW I know. Sometimes I really sit and try to remember where I heard their name or why I recognize the voice, but I know that my only exposure to music is generally what is on my ipod. I don't go to bars. I don't go to parties, so the only thing I can think is that it must have been on TV somewhere as I flipped through channels.


I'm going to reverse these next two questions because the 'why' will make more sense if I do.

* "What do you consider succeeding?" *

I have very little concern for what the world considers 'success'. Material things are not important to me. Climbing ladders is not important to me unless it meets my immediate goals of staying motivated to learn more. I wear the same pair of Walmart shoes happily every day. I have shirts that are older than my daughter. My car was bought because it was a good deal and I would HATE to live in a giant mansion in Beverly Hills. Success to me is knowing that I did the best that I could do at whatever it was I was trying to accomplish, be it a job at work, a relationship or cooking dinner. Do I always succeed? No. Not half as often as I could. I cut corners because I can. I prioritize. "Is it really that important that my dinner be perfect?" I give the effort where I feel it is most needed to be happy and I focus my energy there.

* "And why do you consider it succes?" *

I consider 'Bull shitting' things to be a success because I know that out of the depths of a seemingly oblivious mind come some really crazily accurate things. It amazes me and makes me happy that I somehow know things, even when I can't explain them. It increases my faith in myself, and confidence is never a bad thing to have in life. Things don't always go like I think they should, but I know that I used every personal resource that I had to try to make it happen. I try to life my life with no regrets.

*"And is that genius or ...sheer luck and half-assing it?"*

This one I can't answer. My friends know that I'm insanely "lucky" with things... I'm the person who slows down for 'no reason' right before coming around a bend to pass a cop sitting with his radar out. (Picking up on other brakelights that hit way ahead of me when cars go around the bend?) I 'find' things that I lost right when I need them and I remember at the last minute that I forgot to do something extremely important... only to realize that I had somehow remembered to prepare myself for such an eventuality.

Onlookers must think I'm an airhead. If I were a comedy show, there would be traffic jams piling up behind me and roofs collapsing as I walk out of buildings while I obliviously smile and wave to people looking my direction. I'm a walking catastrophe... but somehow my subconscious looks out for me.

Is it luck or some kind of intuitive, subconscious genius? I have no clue, but it works well for me.

 

[INTPness]

I'm loathe to answer ye Amargith dear, but only because you use your knowledge to crack the crazy NT's open a bit more with each new insight. You're so awesome at it though that I feel you deserve an answer.

* "But does that bullshitting eventually stall you enough time in order to succeed in the end?" *

Quite often, yes. I've found that sometimes all the world needs is a new shiny toy to distract them and then life goes on. Today's drama is yesterdays news. I have been called (both by myself and by... well, by INTPs) a terrific bullshitter. The thing is though... I don't necessarily think its bullshit. The ideas come from SOMEWHERE and just because I can't recall where I heard something or why I know something doesn't mean I'm WRONG... it just means that at some point, something planted in my mind about whatever the topic is and I am at least 80% sure that I know what I'm talking about. I don't ever lie just to 'prove a point' or 'win an argument'. That would be stupid.

* "If yes, how do you go about that?" *

It isn't really a conscious decision. I don't go 'Haha, watch me BS this guy into giving me my way'... I just kind of pull coherent knowledge out of God-knows-where, having somehow understood it or heard it at some point,

A good example... I often can hear music in a genre I NEVER (and I mean NEVER) listen to, and somehow still know who the artist is. Somewhere in my oblivious world I've maybe seen a newspaper ad, heard a commercial, saw them on the news or caught half a minute on a late night show... SOMETHING to say 'Oh yeah, thats so-and-so' but have no damn clue HOW I know. Sometimes I really sit and try to remember where I heard their name or why I recognize the voice, but I know that my only exposure to music is generally what is on my ipod. I don't go to bars. I don't go to parties, so the only thing I can think is that it must have been on TV somewhere as I flipped through channels.


I'm going to reverse these next two questions because the 'why' will make more sense if I do.

* "What do you consider succeeding?" *

I have very little concern for what the world considers 'success'. Material things are not important to me. Climbing ladders is not important to me unless it meets my immediate goals of staying motivated to learn more. I wear the same pair of Walmart shoes happily every day. I have shirts that are older than my daughter. My car was bought because it was a good deal and I would HATE to live in a giant mansion in Beverly Hills. Success to me is knowing that I did the best that I could do at whatever it was I was trying to accomplish, be it a job at work, a relationship or cooking dinner. Do I always succeed? No. Not half as often as I could. I cut corners because I can. I prioritize. "Is it really that important that my dinner be perfect?" I give the effort where I feel it is most needed to be happy and I focus my energy there.

* "And why do you consider it succes?" *

I consider 'Bull shitting' things to be a success because I know that out of the depths of a seemingly oblivious mind come some really crazily accurate things. It amazes me and makes me happy that I somehow know things, even when I can't explain them. It increases my faith in myself, and confidence is never a bad thing to have in life. Things don't always go like I think they should, but I know that I used every personal resource that I had to try to make it happen. I try to life my life with no regrets.

*"And is that genius or ...sheer luck and half-assing it?"*

This one I can't answer. My friends know that I'm insanely "lucky" with things... I'm the person who slows down for 'no reason' right before coming around a bend to pass a cop sitting with his radar out. (Picking up on other brakelights that hit way ahead of me when cars go around the bend?) I 'find' things that I lost right when I need them and I remember at the last minute that I forgot to do something extremely important... only to realize that I had somehow remembered to prepare myself for such an eventuality.

Onlookers must think I'm an airhead. If I were a comedy show, there would be traffic jams piling up behind me and roofs collapsing as I walk out of buildings while I obliviously smile and wave to people looking my direction. I'm a walking catastrophe... but somehow my subconscious looks out for me.

Is it luck or some kind of intuitive, subconscious genius? I have no clue, but it works well for me.

Interesting post. I can relate to a lot of this. Especially the part about intuitively "knowing" that a cop is in the area and things of that nature. In college, I used to have a knack for knowing "what to study". I intuitively knew (not exactly, but roughly) the areas that the professor would test heavily on. I would see my peers studying every little detail of the text and doing an insane amount of note taking in class. When studying, I would cover all of the material (just in case), but I would spend a lot more time on the areas that I knew he was going to focus on.

I feel like I sometimes "know" when a car is coming and there could be a collision. I sometimes "know" when there is danger in the environment. I sometimes don't know the specific reason why, but I know that it's time to leave a given establishment.

I think that's really what "intuition" is. Reading between the lines, seeing things that aren't necessarily obvious to the 5 senses.