[NT] NTPs: Leaders?

[sgtmac_46]

Point.

One that is easily overlooked by spoiled westerners in particular.
Some cultures seem to be somewhat resistant to it... Like Germany, Japan and Finland.
A good work ethic is important as hell. If you get paid to do something, you do it.
It's the results that matters.

That's a point I agree with...........where I disagree, however, is the idea that not only MUST you do the job...........but you must do it EXACTLY as some nitwit outlines, when a more efficient method exists and should be obvious to anyone with half a brain.

 

[Valiant]

That's a point I agree with...........where I disagree, however, is the idea that not only MUST you do the job...........but you must do it EXACTLY as some nitwit outlines, when a more efficient method exists and should be obvious to anyone with half a brain.

In this case, I agree too.
Personally, I am never against improvements if they do not bring about undesirable amounts of risk etc.

This nitwit, is he or she always an ENTJ?
I have met some nasty ENTJs, for sure, but most ENTJ bosses i've seen do it well.
I had the infinite pleasure of working for an unhealthily paranoid and stressed out ENTJ once...
I had serious plans about killing him for the sake of human progress, to be quite honest.

But, while healthy the E, N, T and J traits are generally speaking the best ones for the leader role.
We all have our roles and however hard it is to not run away from it in pursuit of greener pastures...
Well. ENTJs make the best leaders. Generally speaking.
We other NTs, despite our highly inflated egos, are specialists of varying kinds.

Let the ENTJs keep their role, it's not even desirable to be quite honest.
It's fun for like a day, and then it's just a burden we're not ideally made to carry.

 

[highlander]

In this case, I agree too.
Personally, I am never against improvements if they do not bring about undesirable amounts of risk etc.

This nitwit, is he or she always an ENTJ?
I have met some nasty ENTJs, for sure, but most ENTJ bosses i've seen do it well.
I had the infinite pleasure of working for an unhealthily paranoid and stressed out ENTJ once...
I had serious plans about killing him for the sake of human progress, to be quite honest.

But, while healthy the E, N, T and J traits are generally speaking the best ones for the leader role.
We all have our roles and however hard it is to not run away from it in pursuit of greener pastures...
Well. ENTJs make the best leaders. Generally speaking.
We other NTs, despite our highly inflated egos, are specialists of varying kinds.

Let the ENTJs keep their role, it's not even desirable to be quite honest.
It's fun for like a day, and then it's just a burden we're not ideally made to carry.

You would think ENTJs make the best leaders but I'm not certain this is true. I saw some statistics on it and they were actually not perceived by others to be more effective than the other types.

 

[sgtmac_46]

In this case, I agree too.
Personally, I am never against improvements if they do not bring about undesirable amounts of risk etc.

This nitwit, is he or she always an ENTJ?
I have met some nasty ENTJs, for sure, but most ENTJ bosses i've seen do it well.
I had the infinite pleasure of working for an unhealthily paranoid and stressed out ENTJ once...
I had serious plans about killing him for the sake of human progress, to be quite honest.

But, while healthy the E, N, T and J traits are generally speaking the best ones for the leader role.
We all have our roles and however hard it is to not run away from it in pursuit of greener pastures...
Well. ENTJs make the best leaders. Generally speaking.
We other NTs, despite our highly inflated egos, are specialists of varying kinds.

Let the ENTJs keep their role, it's not even desirable to be quite honest.
It's fun for like a day, and then it's just a burden we're not ideally made to carry.

The nitwit in question is pure ESFJ.

As for ENTJ's making the best leaders, it depends on what the objective is.


The reality is that if we look at leadership from a military perspective, say, we'll find that ENTJ's make the best conventional military leaders. ENTP's make the best unconventional leaders.

If the objective is to organize a conventional military, field it, and apply conventional strategy, one can never go wrong with an ENTJ heading the whole thing, with ESTP field commanders.

If the objective is to organize an unconventional insurgency, built around deception, fluidity of strategy, and limited resources, to be applied in a highly creative and unconventional manner, you can't go wrong with a highly motivated ENTP with TSP's lieutenants.

If it's a peace time military, it's likely to be run by various SJ's.

 

[Valiant]

The nitwit in question is pure ESFJ.

As for ENTJ's making the best leaders, it depends on what the objective is.


The reality is that if we look at leadership from a military perspective, say, we'll find that ENTJ's make the best conventional military leaders. ENTP's make the best unconventional leaders.

If the objective is to organize a conventional military, field it, and apply conventional strategy, one can never go wrong with an ENTJ heading the whole thing, with ESTP field commanders.

If the objective is to organize an unconventional insurgency, built around deception, fluidity of strategy, and limited resources, to be applied in a highly creative and unconventional manner, you can't go wrong with a highly motivated ENTP with TSP's lieutenants.

If it's a peace time military, it's likely to be run by various SJ's.

Well. That is an opinion as good as any with the only real flaw being that it comes out of an ENTP.
You could be right and all, but it's possible that you are deceiving yourself.

According to my observations, it is not true that ENTJs are conventional.
To be quite honest, I don't think many of them relies much on experience and "old but tried" at all.
Napoleon, Caesar, Rommel, Shukov... I can think of a crapload of great and innovative ENTJ commanders, and not a single ENTP off the top of my head.
Some poor marijuana-infested souls say that Che Guevara was an ENFP or ENTP, but no one who have read a lot about him would say anything but J.
Mao Tze Tung... J.
And there we have the inventors of modern guerilla warfare.

No, I do not buy it.

 

[Matthew_Z]

The modern culture of military warfare favors J. If that's a coincidence or not is up for you to decide.

 

[ajblaise]

NTPs don't function as well in the working class as they do in the leisure class, which is were we belong! We come up with the ideas that NTJs then implement and get SJs to eventually carry out. The true leaders.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Well. That is an opinion as good as any with the only real flaw being that it comes out of an ENTP.
You could be right and all, but it's possible that you are deceiving yourself.

According to my observations, it is not true that ENTJs are conventional.
To be quite honest, I don't think many of them relies much on experience and "old but tried" at all.
Napoleon, Caesar, Rommel, Shukov... I can think of a crapload of great and innovative ENTJ commanders, and not a single ENTP off the top of my head.
Some poor marijuana-infested souls say that Che Guevara was an ENFP or ENTP, but no one who have read a lot about him would say anything but J.
Mao Tze Tung... J.
And there we have the inventors of modern guerilla warfare.

No, I do not buy it.

Caesar was an ESTP.........as was Patton........likely Rommel as well......Eisenhower was an ENTJ.......and clearly Napoleon......ENTJ's are good at organization, good at strategic planning, therefore, decent at conventional warfare.

Alexander the Great was clearly an ENTP.

 

[sgtmac_46]

The modern culture of military warfare favors J. If that's a coincidence or not is up for you to decide.

Western military culture, in peace time, favors J..........in war time it favors P.

The best soldiers on any given battlefield are STP's, period, hands down. SJ's are fine for polishing the brass, but when the shooting starts, there's little to compare to an STP.

 

[Matthew_Z]

The days of foot soldiers going commando are coming to a close. Say hello to precision.

 

[Valiant]

Caesar was an ESTP.........as was Patton........likely Rommel as well......Eisenhower was an ENTJ.......and clearly Napoleon......ENTJ's are good at organization, good at strategic planning, therefore, decent at conventional warfare.

Alexander the Great was clearly an ENTP.

Wait, what? Caesar ESTP?
I can agree on Patton. But seriously, where the hell did you find that piece of information?
Nothing in his way of being except maybe the tales of his sexual escapades radiate any STP.
There is no man, woman, animal or inanimate object that I have read so much about and of than Gaius Julius Caesar.
I love ESTPs, but he was not one. Read Commentarii de Bello Gallico and at least some of his correspondence.
An easy way to do that without going to Rome is to read Colleen McCullough's "Masters of Rome" series.
It is highly historically accurate, and the letters - which are frequent - are translations of real correspondence.

Just a suggestion. The guy reeks of ENTJ more than anyone. Napoleon was weakly ENTJ in comparison.

Alexander the Great could indeed have been an ENTP, but he could have been a pink, dancing banana trombone with unicorn stew as well.
Written sources from that time period are hardly reliable as he is almost a legend.
Do you know he was also "shining" and sort of superhuman in all of his endeavors etc yadayadayada?
Clear case of emperor altering history. He obviously had very competent personnel at his disposal, as well as incredibly good advisors.
Well, maybe not Hephaistos and his drinking/fuckbuddies by and large...
But... I can't remember the name of that brilliant military engineer... Hmmph.
Anyway. The best a surprise conquering of the Greek peninsula, mercenaries and conquered cultures could muster.
He could have been anything. He was probably something, though...
But if anything, he was a figurehead. One with an understanding of tactics and strategy...
But that little extra probably came from his unique mix of specialists.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Wait, what? Caesar ESTP?
I can agree on Patton. But seriously, where the hell did you find that piece of information?
Nothing in his way of being except maybe the tales of his sexual escapades radiate any STP.
There is no man, woman, animal or inanimate object that I have read so much about and of than Gaius Julius Caesar.
I love ESTPs, but he was not one. Read Commentarii de Bello Gallico and at least some of his correspondence.
An easy way to do that without going to Rome is to read Colleen McCullough's "Masters of Rome" series.
It is highly historically accurate, and the letters - which are frequent - are translations of real correspondence.

Just a suggestion. The guy reeks of ENTJ more than anyone. Napoleon was weakly ENTJ in comparison.

Alexander the Great could indeed have been an ENTP, but he could have been a pink, dancing banana trombone with unicorn stew as well.
Written sources from that time period are hardly reliable as he is almost a legend.
Do you know he was also "shining" and sort of superhuman in all of his endeavors etc yadayadayada?
Clear case of emperor altering history. He obviously had very competent personnel at his disposal, as well as incredibly good advisors.
Well, maybe not Hephaistos and his drinking/fuckbuddies by and large...
But... I can't remember the name of that brilliant military engineer... Hmmph.
Anyway. The best a surprise conquering of the Greek peninsula, mercenaries and conquered cultures could muster.
He could have been anything. He was probably something, though...
But if anything, he was a figurehead. One with an understanding of tactics and strategy...
But that little extra probably came from his unique mix of specialists.

I have no intention of feeding an INTJ on a rant, arguing over Caesar and Alexander is hardly even relevant to the discussion. As for the notion of type bias, it's far more prevalent with NTJ types claiming every successful battlefield commander is an NTJ than anyone else claiming so.

The bottom line is that ENTJ's make decent strategic commanders, far less competent tactical commanders, and when it comes to unconventional warfare, fairly incompetent ones.

A more modern example (and hence one with more ACTUAL documentation, versus mythological) would be the grandfather of Modern Unconventional Warfare, Otto Skorzeny, who was CLEARLY NOT an ENTJ or an INTJ.............most likely an ENTP or ESTP, but much points to an ENTP.

Skorzeny played havok during the Battle of the Bulge, with a couple dozen SS Commandos, by running around in American uniforms, and actually forced Eisenhower in to hiding for several weeks out of fear of a rumor he was coming to assassinate him in Paris.

Now, ultimately this did nothing to turn the tide of the war, but Skorzeny wasn't in charge of the war, only the operations that he, most often, brought off in spectacular and highly creative fashion, with far fewer men and equipment than anyone would have thought possible.

 

[sgtmac_46]

The days of foot soldiers going commando are coming to a close. Say hello to precision.

Actually, you've got it pretty well damn backwards. How have those precision guided munitions been going to win the 'WOT'? Yeah, you can kill the two terrorists hole up in the backroom, but you also kill the family of 7 living in the front room........which in turn creates 100 more terrorists.

And therein lies the issue of conventional conflict..........overwhelming firepower does win in a conflict between massed armies..........that's why you aren't seeing as many conflicts between massed armies.

Oh, and even those precision guided munitions? Were pointed toward their target by a highly trained SP 'commando' on the ground.

Here's a pop quiz..........how do you disable a $100 Million Dollar F-22 with a $100.00 gun?

 

[yenom]

Mao Tze Tung... J.
And there we have the inventors of modern guerilla warfare.

No, I do not buy it.

'

Where do you get that from? Do you want to debate about Mao here?

it's far more prevalent with NTJ types claiming every successful battlefield commander is an NTJ than anyone else claiming so.

I entirely agree.

And I am pretty sure Rommel is a P also.

 

[Shaunward]

Here's a pop quiz..........how do you disable a $100 Million Dollar F-22 with a $100.00 gun?

Attack its weak point for massive damage.

 

[yenom]

Post edited by Cloud.

 

[Frank]

Jesus, you are seriously an idiot. I suggest you go read some history before arguing and posting crap in this forum.

As I recall you are a boderline J. A borderline J is not exactly a pure J.

Ever since when has Te is equated with military competence?
Warfare is always about adapting to changes in the battlefield (a P trait), rather than following some stupid rigid plan and discipline.

Even Napoleon is a borderline J.

When you make statements like the bolded you are forgetting about Ni's influence on Te. We may not appear as though we are adapting but that is because we have already foreseen most scenarios.

 

[Blank]

Get off of the stereotype bandwagons already, people. "P" doesn't automatically mean "more creative," or "more adaptable." "J" doesn't automatically mean "tightwad that can't make a change."

Here are some fun facts:
Not every thinker is smart. Many thinkers can feel quite strongly.
Not every feeler is caring. Many feelers can think quite deeply.

 

[tinkerbell]

"Mao Tze Tung... J.
And there we have the inventors of modern guerilla warfare."


I do suspect thr Scots were indulging in gerilla warfar LONG before that, and I'm sure they weren't the only ones.

 

[Asterion]

ENTPs are more likely to promote equality.

I don't know about other NTPs, but I lead through the use of information. The one that has the most information is the one that calls the shots. Though that probably paves the way for disputes. So I guess I'd prefer a workplace full of informative types, rather than directive types. It just feels good when you realize that the workers are totally willing to be there and get the job done their own way.