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[NT] NT preference for semantic-based arguments

foolish heart

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I don't understand where this behavior comes from. Is it because they've spent so much time around people that this works on? What is the best way to respond so that the argument can be settled without stooping to the same level? Thanks in advance.
 

foolish heart

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Example please

Semantic dispute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That explains it a bit more. To put it in my own words, it is when someone attempts to focus the argument on word meaning rather than what is actually being described. I try to steer the argument back onto what is being said not how we are saying it, but they will steer around me with more semantics and nothing gets accomplished.
 

teslashock

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It's a Ti thing. Ti has this overwhelming desire to make sure that all aspects of the system (the argument) are clear/known beyond a reasonable doubt. If somebody interprets an aspect of the Ti-er's argument in a way that does not align with the Ti-er's true intentions, then Ti will bludgeon that interpretation to death, by showing semantically and logically, that the interpretation is unfounded, in a (some times rather desperate) attempt to discredit the opposing position.
 

simulatedworld

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This sounds a lot more like NTPs than NTJs. NTJs are usually annoyed with people that they see as spending too much time focusing on arbitrary definitional precision (this is one thing they tend to dislike about NTPs.)

Anyway, the people you're arguing with in these cases probably are not intentionally steering the conversation into semantics just for the sake of frustrating you. NTPs tend to insist on this sort of precision (many would describe it as nitpicking) because we're very keenly aware of subtle differences in shades of meaning. When you use one word but we can tell from context that you meant something that that word doesn't actually mean, we want to correct you because we feel that misinterpretation of each other's ideas is inevitable if you don't know the right words to properly convey the ideas you're trying to express.

The miscommunication usually happens when someone uses the wrong word or wrong shade of meaning, and when you do this NTPs will often focus on correcting your terminology even though we're able to intuit what it is that you actually meant to say. Ironically, you see this as us "ignoring what's actually being said", but in reality we're often more aware of what you actually said than you are. We realize that you said something that doesn't align with what you actually intended to say and we want to clear up this misunderstanding so we can communicate more effectively with you.

What you want us to do is to focus on what you meant, but we find it difficult to discuss anything meaningfully until the terminology is defined clearly and precisely, which doesn't happen if there's a disconnect between your idea of the terminology and ours.

We're generally not doing this just to annoy you, but rather because we insist on having a common language defined before any meaningful discussion can occur.

From your perspective, you may not understand the difference between the terms you're using and the terms we're asking you to use instead, so it looks like we're ignoring your point and focusing on errors in your wording instead. Admittedly, we do this sometimes when we could just intuit what you meant based on context and adjust our responses to it, but again, we don't like having formal discussions until we're both on the same page about the terms we're using and their precise shades of meaning.
 

teslashock

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Wait, Circle, what do you mean when you say "stooping to the same level"? Do you mean to imply that arguments based on semantics are some how inherently inferior to your own contentions? Or do you mean to imply that you're personally turned off by such arguments? Or do you think that people who make such arguments are just plain stupid for not getting the general idea prior to [over]analyzing the details? :thinking:

I'm going to need some clarification before I can contribute anymore to this thread...
 

simulatedworld

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Wait, Circle, what do you mean when you say "stooping to the same level"? Do you mean to imply that arguments based on semantics are some how inherently inferior to your own contentions? Or do you mean to imply that you're personally turned off by such arguments? Or do you think that people who make such arguments are just plain stupid for not getting the general idea prior to [over]analyzing the details? :thinking:

I'm going to need some clarification before I can contribute anymore to this thread...

He thinks NTs (presumably NTPs in this case) are ignoring what he said and focusing on correcting his terminology just to be pedantic.

I won't deny that we revel in some degree of pedantry at times, but usually the purpose is clarification of terms for the sake of clearer and more effective communication--not just nitpicking for the sake of annoying people.
 

teslashock

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He thinks NTs (presumably NTPs in this case) are ignoring what he said and focusing on correcting his terminology just to be pedantic.

I won't deny that we revel in some degree of pedantry at times, but usually the purpose is clarification of terms for the sake of clearer and more effective communication--not just nitpicking for the sake of annoying people.

What about for the sake of lighthearted tomfoolery? :banana:
 

simulatedworld

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What about for the sake of lighthearted tomfoolery? :banana:

Depends on who you do it to. I find that NTJs have little patience for this, as they consider it a trivial waste of time.

STPs will probably wipe that smug grin right off your face with a swift right hook to the left temple, though.
 

murkrow

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NTs aren't trying to start semantic arguments.

We listen to the words you say to us and then respond to their meaning.
 

simulatedworld

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NTs aren't trying to start semantic arguments.

We listen to the words you say to us and then respond to their meaning.

But what exactly do you mean by "meaning", anyway? :D
 

purplesunset

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Wait, Circle, what do you mean when you say "stooping to the same level"? Do you mean to imply that arguments based on semantics are some how inherently inferior to your own contentions? Or do you mean to imply that you're personally turned off by such arguments? Or do you think that people who make such arguments are just plain stupid for not getting the general idea prior to [over]analyzing the details? :thinking:

I'm going to need some clarification before I can contribute anymore to this thread...


Very clever. Seems like some people took your "tomfoolery" seriously though.

Despite being an introvert, when the mood hits me, I like to play devil's advocate in a classroom discussion, and I become the semantics fiend and throw the topic off balance. :devil:
 

tcda

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I hate semantic arguments. I usually look at an overrall impression of someone's argument/point.

Now let's not confuse semantics with incorrect definitions. If you define a concept or phenomenon sufficiently incorrectly then this changes hte content and meaning of your argument. This is different to semantics.
 

purplesunset

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I hate semantic arguments. I usually look at an overrall impression of someone's argument/point.

Now let's not confuse semantics with incorrect definitions. If you define a concept or phenomenon sufficiently incorrectly then this changes hte content and meaning of your argument. This is different to semantics.

I think you're talking about those annoying cases where the person says something silly like "it depends on what the meaning of is is."

That is usually just intellectual posturing, or plain ol' evasion.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

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I don't understand where this behavior comes from. Is it because they've spent so much time around people that this works on? What is the best way to respond so that the argument can be settled without stooping to the same level? Thanks in advance.

I can't speak for all NT's, but if it seems like I'm focusing on what words you are using it is because I don't really understand what you are trying to say. I want to clarify the meaning of the words, so that I can understand what you are saying.
 

jenocyde

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It's a Ti thing.

ESTPs use Ti, as well. It's more likely Ne fueled... the possibility that this can mean that or that or that.

I won't deny that we revel in some degree of pedantry at times, but usually the purpose is clarification of terms for the sake of clearer and more effective communication--not just nitpicking for the sake of annoying people.

This. Most times we don't do it to annoy, we actually want to make things clear before proceeding, so we don't get caught in traps or assign you to arguments that are not yours.

What is the best way to respond so that the argument can be settled without stooping to the same level? Thanks in advance.

If I were you, it would be easier to be clear and absolute. Meaning, don't get tangled up in a word debate. Say, "no, I meant this and I've said it clearly already, so let's just move on". Refuse to engage with any unreasonable person who "pretends" not to understand you. Not worth the effort.
 

Oaky

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Semantic dispute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That explains it a bit more. To put it in my own words, it is when someone attempts to focus the argument on word meaning rather than what is actually being described. I try to steer the argument back onto what is being said not how we are saying it, but they will steer around me with more semantics and nothing gets accomplished.
It quite annoys me when people do this. I get the idea that they know exactly what I'm talking about but keep straying from the argument to avoid it.
 

Eruca

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Speaking for myself. I often find myself *stuck* between multiple counter-arguments, unsure which to use as I am unsure of my oponent's argument.

If they said A but they mean B, I should counter with C.
If they said A but they mean D, I should counter with E.

You might say "Well if they say A they mean A!". In my experience this often isnt the case. To me, A might mean B, only a slight difference is required. Most people seem woefully unaware how easy it is to missunderstand another person's position.

I can't speak for the other types, but if a INTP asks you to "define X", its not that they cant find a counter-argument, its that they dont know the correct arguement to bring to the table.
 

teslashock

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ESTPs use Ti, as well. It's more likely Ne fueled... the possibility that this can mean that or that or that.

Yeah I meant NT Ti, considering that was what the OP decided to talk about in this thread. Sorry for not specifying; I think we should argue about the semantics of what you quoted me on now. Ready, go...;)

But yes, I definitely agree with you that Ne fuels this along, but I think deciding to back off of Ti and go more with your Ne hunch will aid in the situation. It's Ti coupled with Ne. It's not a really a typical behavior of NFPs so much as NTPs.

Very clever. Seems like some people took your "tomfoolery" seriously though.

Or some people are countering my tomfoolery with more tomfoolery. ;)

I can't speak for all NT's, but if it seems like I'm focusing on what words you are using it is because I don't really understand what you are trying to say. I want to clarify the meaning of the words, so that I can understand what you are saying.

Yes, this is often the case for me too. I can see all the possible different meanings very well, but I have a really hard time figuring which meaning is the "correct" one and sticking with it.

Some times I use it as a way of throwing an argument off course though, but usually only when the person is really bad at clarifying themselves in the first place, so I try to use that inability against them.

But what exactly do you mean by "meaning", anyway? :D

Hypocrite :1377:
 

thisGuy

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yeah...im usually only pedantic to make sure what im trying to say gets across. once the definitions are established, we can build upon them

this prolly happens because as an N (or for whatever other reason), i seem to assign meanings to words that might not necessarily coincide with the way everyone else uses that word. so before i can argue with you, i have to know how to get m point across to you.


like try to see the difference between the way normal people think about gravity and the way a physicist thinks about gravity and the way a mathematician thinks about gravity and the way a 5 year old thinks about gravity

comes down to people's perception
 
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