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[ENTP] ENTP Personality Traits - Female ENTPs v Male ENTPs

onemoretime

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Feminism was cool until it turned into female supremacist misandry.

To be fair, the more sober forms of feminism were rarely publicized. Thoughtful women cogitating on the nature of their role in society doesn't really bring in audiences. Loud, overt women who fit a stereotype of what a "feminist" is do bring in those audiences, who are generally there only to have their preconceptions reinforced.
 

simulatedworld

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Instinctual Variant
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To be fair, the more sober forms of feminism were rarely publicized. Thoughtful women cogitating on the nature of their role in society doesn't really bring in audiences. Loud, overt women who fit a stereotype of what a "feminist" is do bring in those audiences, who are generally there only to have their preconceptions reinforced.

Yep, I guess it's much easier to just decide men are the devil than to actually think about the issue and say anything meaningful about it.
 

onemoretime

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Yep, I guess it's much easier to just decide men are the devil than to actually think about the issue and say anything meaningful about it.

More like, it's much easier to get on TV and consequently funded in one's studies playing the radical villain than doing the hard research and presenting a legitimate case (which they won't listen to, anyway).

The perception of feminism referred to earlier is the TV perception of feminism. It's overly broad and represents a caricature, intended to marginalize and delegitimize the positions of other, more rigorous thinkers.
 

teslashock

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More like, it's much easier to get on TV and consequently funded in one's studies playing the radical villain than doing the hard research and presenting a legitimate case (which they won't listen to, anyway).

The perception of feminism referred to earlier is the TV perception of feminism. It's overly broad and represents a caricature, intended to marginalize and delegitimize the positions of other, more rigorous thinkers.

The real "rigorous thinkers" understand that there's no point in pursuing a feminist movement anymore.
 

Orangey

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The real "rigorous thinkers" understand that there's no point in pursuing a feminist movement anymore.

Replace "rigorous" with "reactionary" and you're spot on.

I feel like I'm repeating myself over and over on this forum, but I'll say it again anyway: radical feminism != all feminism, nor does it even represent a significant part. There are many types of feminism, and certain feminisms may conflict theoretically with other feminisms. There is no overarching theory of "feminism." And to suggest that there is such an overarching theory or standpoint, or that there is no need for feminism today, or that feminism = the radical, lesbian feminism of the more vocal variety is to label one's self as grossly ignorant on the subject, and therefore unqualified to speak about it.
 

yenom

Alexander the Terrible
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I am not a E7 so I do not relate with alot ENTPs in this forum.
However, I have seen many aggressive females, so I do not know why girls here put up a nice front.
Girls who play sports are quite aggressive, and almost as much as man, so I do not understand why females here have problem with society's values while the females who play sports do not.
Besides, from my understanding, females from western countries are quite outspoken about their opinions, much more so than the females around here at East Asia. So i don't why arguing and being blunt is a problem for the females here.
 

Katsuni

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I am not a E7 so I do not relate with alot ENTPs in this forum.
However, I have seen many aggressive females, so I do not know why girls here put up a nice front.
Girls who play sports are quite aggressive, and almost as much as man, so I do not understand why females here have problem with society's values while the females who play sports do not.
Besides, from my understanding, females from western countries are quite outspoken about their opinions, much more so than the females around here at East Asia. So i don't why arguing and being blunt is a problem for the females here.

Several reasons likely; females who play sports tend to have a much, much higher testosterone value.

There's also the thing that we're here to TALK, DISCUSS, AND DEBATE in a written, civilized manner, rather than brutally go at each other in competition.

It's still a competition (for some of us); the verbal sparring is just as good, or occasionally better, than having a real sword. However... to do so requires finesse.

The difference, while prolonging the analogy of sparring, is between that of using a broadsword and a rapier. One uses wide, heavy blows, the other neatly carves its' way with deftness and precision.

As such, I think it's far less that there's "problems" with it, so much as the methodology in which the end goal is achieved is different here due to the context. Being blunt and telling someone they're stupid gets yeu nowheres on a forum. Being tactful, and with great eloquence, smashing their face into the mud and rubbing it in, while making it look like a compliment earns yeu alot of points.

But that is the subculture of a forum; which incidentally, is likely the issue with the females in eastern Asia as well; culture. It is in the culture for females to be more submissive there, for the most part. It's grown for the culture here for the women to be able to do anything they want and get away with it over in the west, due to the massive overcorrection on the whole male sexist thing doing a 180 flip. Maybe if yeu see enough asian feminazi's, yeu'll see a similar change, who knows.
 

yenom

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eh, so males lack tact?

I was the most quiet and introverted male in my highschool, and much more interesting, is that the most outspoken and blunt people in my class were females(I was then studying in an english speaking country).
 

teslashock

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Replace "rigorous" with "reactionary" and you're spot on.

I feel like I'm repeating myself over and over on this forum, but I'll say it again anyway: radical feminism != all feminism, nor does it even represent a significant part. There are many types of feminism, and certain feminisms may conflict theoretically with other feminisms. There is no overarching theory of "feminism." And to suggest that there is such an overarching theory or standpoint, or that there is no need for feminism today, or that feminism = the radical, lesbian feminism of the more vocal variety is to label one's self as grossly ignorant on the subject, and therefore unqualified to speak about it.

I never suggested that feminism is completely encompassed by radical lesbian feminism. Sounds to me like you're just overly enthusiastic about going off on your moral high horse (ironically, a behavior which is not so foreign to most who claim to be "feminists").

I simply meant to suggest that females are equal in today's society so much as they want to be equal, and it takes some sort of "rigorous" thinking to see that. Most "feminists" simply wish to victimize themselves by finding ways that they are not equal rather than by indirectly tackling any such notions via working independently from them. Feminists seem to think it's productive to beg for respect, pointedly remark on times when they are not treated with respect, and blame it on the fact that their lack of respect is due to deep-rooted societal notions on what a female ought to be. The only way for anybody, females included, to gain respect is to earn it, and if one earns respect, she'll get it, regardless of her gender.

I've lived for nearly 22 years as a female, and I've never felt oppressed (at least not in this country) by the fact that I have a vagina. Here a woman is only oppressed insofar as she lets herself be oppressed; there are available opportunities for essentially everybody, and any lacking opportunities are not due to gender biases. An active feminist movement in America is outdated and redundant (regardless of where such movement falls on the radical scale), and until we let go of it, women will never realize that their problems have nothing to do with societal oppression and everything to do with their own frame of mind.
 

Gamine

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Aaahhhh how I love the ntps. <3

I find a lot of similarities between myself and the ENTP posters on this forum. Whenever I question my type and stumble upon something written by Jenocyde, Eck, Qre:us or Synarch my doubts are quelled by laughter and guffahs. I would likely be more of an annoying troll on the forum, except my daily life is filled with a lot of conflict. Not even the fun kind, where debates and innovation occur. But the kind where the content is lost because everyone refuses to agree on basic context or language to have a discussion.

When conflicts come up here, I am more likely to troll a troll than anyone I see using incorrect language or wrong information because I'm mature enough to know that I cannot change someone when they are set in their ways and incapable and unwilling to open their minds to another solution.

Long story short, I try not to bang my head against a wall for no reason.
 

Qre:us

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The real "rigorous thinkers" understand that there's no point in pursuing a feminist movement anymore.

Replace "rigorous" with "reactionary" and you're spot on.

I feel like I'm repeating myself over and over on this forum, but I'll say it again anyway: radical feminism != all feminism, nor does it even represent a significant part. There are many types of feminism, and certain feminisms may conflict theoretically with other feminisms. There is no overarching theory of "feminism." And to suggest that there is such an overarching theory or standpoint, or that there is no need for feminism today, or that feminism = the radical, lesbian feminism of the more vocal variety is to label one's self as grossly ignorant on the subject, and therefore unqualified to speak about it.

I never suggested that feminism is completely encompassed by radical lesbian feminism. Sounds to me like you're just overly enthusiastic about going off on your moral high horse (ironically, a behavior which is not so foreign to most who claim to be "feminists").

I simply meant to suggest that females are equal in today's society so much as they want to be equal, and it takes some sort of "rigorous" thinking to see that. Most "feminists" simply wish to victimize themselves by finding ways that they are not equal rather than by indirectly tackling any such notions via working independently from them. Feminists seem to think it's productive to beg for respect, pointedly remark on times when they are not treated with respect, and blame it on the fact that their lack of respect is due to deep-rooted societal notions on what a female ought to be. The only way for anybody, females included, to gain respect is to earn it, and if one earns respect, she'll get it, regardless of her gender.

I've lived for nearly 22 years as a female, and I've never felt oppressed (at least not in this country) by the fact that I have a vagina. Here a woman is only oppressed insofar as she lets herself be oppressed; there are available opportunities for essentially everybody, and any lacking opportunities are not due to gender biases. An active feminist movement in America is outdated and redundant (regardless of where such movement falls on the radical scale), and until we let go of it, women will never realize that their problems have nothing to do with societal oppression and everything to do with their own frame of mind.

tesla, you missed the main point Orangey was highlighting (see bolded), you again responded to her by talking of 'feminism' as if it is in one unifying term/ideology, when, in reality it is not the case.

What exactly is this feminism that you talk of?

And, if by feminism, you mean advocacy for equal rights for women in today's society, then, no, it is not obsolete, unless you think of it in terms of a selfish, "I"-centered view, of white (or whatever other priviledged group you belong to) middle-class women in America. It'd be more accurate, to point out that in your tiny bubble of associations (your social position), it is obsolete.

Those, like myself, who identify with certain feminist theories, are not just advocating for the rights of white middle-class women, but, women in all segments of our society. And, extending that bubble further, advocacy of women's rights internationally too, qualifies certain feminists theories today(even if I am sitting comfy in North America), and the need for such advocacy.

There are still huge social barriers, with regards to women's rights, in certain African American communities, in Aboriginal communities, in immigrant populations, in low socio-economic communities, and yes, these are still ongoing, currently, in North America. You should be less rigorous with your inclusion criteria.

So, to paint all women in North America, by the white middle-class brush and then use that as the premise of why certain theories of feminism is obsolete as a whole, is, as Orangey pointed out, reactionary and short-sighted.
 

Gamine

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tesla, you missed the main point Orangey was highlighting (see bolded), you again responded to her by talking of 'feminism' as if it is in one unifying term/ideology, when, in reality it is not the case.

What exactly is this feminism that you talk of?

And, if by feminism, you mean advocacy for equal rights for women in today's society, then, no, it is not obsolete, unless you think of it in terms of a selfish, "I"-centered view, of white (or whatever other priviledged group you belong to) middle-class women in America. It'd be more accurate, to point out that in your tiny bubble of associations (your social position), it is obsolete.

Those, like myself, who identify with certain feminist theories, are not just advocating for the rights of white middle-class women, but, women in all segments of our society. And, extending that bubble further, advocacy of women's rights internationally too, qualifies certain feminists theories today(even if I am sitting comfy in North America), and the need for such advocacy.

There are still huge social barriers, with regards to women's rights, in certain African American communities, in Aboriginal communities, in immigrant populations, in low socio-economic communities, and yes, these are still ongoing, currently, in North America. You should be less rigorous with your inclusion criteria.

So, to paint all women in North America, by the white middle-class brush and then use that as the premise of why certain theories of feminism is obsolete as a whole, is, as Orangey pointed out, reactionary and short-sighted.

See? I agree haha.
 

onemoretime

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I find it interesting that as alienated as xNTPs often find themselves in general society, that some find it difficult to put themselves in others' shoes who protest their own alienation, realizing that what may seem like nonsense complaint to some manifests itself as a life-defining reality to others.

Tesla, how are you so certain that the problems of "women" (an incredibly large and diverse class of people) can be solved by a simple change in one's frame of mind? Not only that, but how exactly do you plan to enact this change? How does one let oneself be oppressed - isn't part of the definition of oppression that it is imposed upon by others?
 

teslashock

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tesla, you missed the main point Orangey was highlighting (see bolded), you again responded to her by talking of 'feminism' as if it is in one unifying term/ideology, when, in reality it is not the case.

What exactly is this feminism that you talk of?

I understood that she's arguing against the belief that there exists one narrow, all-encompassing feminist ideal. However, it's fair to assume that there actually is a very broad ideal (otherwise "feminism" as a word would have no real meaning), and that is for the equal position/treatment of women in today's society. The need for an active movement that pushes this is the movement that I find redundant. The feminism of which I speak is the feminism that seeks to have women treated equally in a society where they are largely treated equally and the feminism that seeks to blame female problems on the way in which society treats them.

Those, like myself, who identify with certain feminist theories, are not just advocating for the rights of white middle-class women, but, women in all segments of our society. And, extending that bubble further, advocacy of women's rights internationally too, qualifies certain feminists theories today(even if I am sitting comfy in North America), and the need for such advocacy.

I agree. I even explicitly limited my scope to a female's place in North American society. Obviously there are cultures outside of our little democratic bubble that oppress women, and I'm not blind to those.

If we want to fight for the rights of the female gender, we should focus our energies on somewhere like Saudi Arabia or Sudan where women are indeed denied of basic human rights, not a place like the US where women are already free and equal. I'll stress again that I do not find feminist movements geared at countries like these to be redundant.

There are still huge social barriers, with regards to women's rights, in certain African American communities, in Aboriginal communities, in immigrant populations, in low socio-economic communities, and yes, these are still ongoing, currently, in North America. You should be more rigorous with your inclusion criteria.

I'd argue that such "barriers" in these communities are due to something other than just gender. Oppression may exist in certain ethnic, socio-economic, and minority subpopulations, but the driving force behind such oppression is not exclusively gender; it's because of race, economic standing, or cultural dissimilarities, or any of these things+gender, not exclusively gender. If we want to fight for equality, doing it based on gender is the wrong way to go about it, as there are much more expansive reasons for oppression and fighting these other causal factors would be a lot more productive.

So, to paint all women in North America, by the white middle-class brush and then use that as the premise of why certain theories of feminism is obsolete as a whole, is, as Orangey pointed out, reactionary and short-sighted.

I wasn't trying to paint the world with a white middle-class brush. Obviously that kind of view is narrow-minded and invalid. Quit using your ENTP brush to paint me with such hyperboles.

Again, I stand by the claim that women are not oppressed directly because of their gender (at least not in the US). If they are oppressed, there's another more important causal factor, and that's what we should be focusing on. Fighting where there's no problem is futile and takes away from our ability to find the real problems and fight them.

I mean can you seriously tell me that a woman in America is still treated as an inferior simply due to the fact that she's a woman?
 

teslashock

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I find it interesting that as alienated as xNTPs often find themselves in general society, that some find it difficult to put themselves in others' shoes who protest their own alienation, realizing that what may seem like nonsense complaint to some manifests itself as a life-defining reality to others.

Tesla, how are you so certain that the problems of "women" (an incredibly large and diverse class of people) can be solved by a simple change in one's frame of mind? Not only that, but how exactly do you plan to enact this change? How does one let oneself be oppressed - isn't part of the definition of oppression that it is imposed upon by others?

If there is a woman in America who believes she is oppressed exclusively due to her gender, then I'm sorry that this oppression has defined her life in such a negative way. I'd like to speak with such a woman and figure out how it is that her gender is the limiting factor that takes away from her opportunities.

There are serious measures in place in the US to protect women from oppression. Women who feel oppressed due to their gender are not actually oppressed due to their gender; they simply do not know how to use the tools at their disposal to fight such oppression.

Oppression can be fought with a change in frame of mind if the oppression exists solely within our heads.

Oh, and obviously I never meant to imply that all women in all walks of life are treated as equals. That would be an absurd notion to claim.
 

onemoretime

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If there is a woman in America who believes she is oppressed exclusively due to her gender, then I'm sorry that this oppression has defined her life in such a negative way. I'd like to speak with such a woman and figure out how it is that her gender is the limiting factor that takes away from her opportunities.

There are serious measures in place in the US to protect women from oppression. Women who feel oppressed due to their gender are not actually oppressed due to their gender; they simply do not know how to use the tools at their disposal to fight such oppression.

The book "Nickled and Dimed" by Barbara Ehrenreich may be enlightening. It deals with the confluence of gender and class issues among the working classes in a way that helps demonstrate such things. Men don't have to feed their kids, women do, no matter how little money they make. Declining wages hit women particularly hard, since they simply can't take on the riskier jobs men do, lest they orphan their children. These are substantial problems that are inherently tied to gender, and will remain as such as long as women bear the largest portion of the responsibility of raising children.

Oh, and obviously I never meant to imply that all women in all walks of life are treated as equals. That would be an absurd notion to claim.

Very absurd.
 

teslashock

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The book "Nickled and Dimed" by Barbara Ehrenreich may be enlightening. It deals with the confluence of gender and class issues among the working classes in a way that helps demonstrate such things. Men don't have to feed their kids, women do, no matter how little money they make. Declining wages hit women particularly hard, since they simply can't take on the riskier jobs men do, lest they orphan their children. These are substantial problems that are inherently tied to gender, and will remain as such as long as women bear the largest portion of the responsibility of raising children.

Yeah I believe I've actually read excerpts from that book in a women's studies class, if my memory serves me right.

Anyway, I'd argue that these problems are not due to the fact that the woman is a woman; they are due to the fact that the woman is from a poor socioeconomic background. We should be fighting socioeconomic gaps more than we should be fighting for woman's rights.

A movement going on that seeks to minimize the hardships that single mothers face is fine and dandy (and this kind of feminism is cool, though I'm not sure it should be called feminism). A movement going on that seeks to have females treated as equals is pointless; we've been there and done that already, and we did it quite successfully.

The claim I'm trying to make here is that oppression occurs, but oppression for being female does not, thus a feminist movement that fights against female oppression occurring exclusively due to the fact that a female is a female is redundant.
 
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