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[NT] INTP vs ENTP. War of objectivity!

Magic Poriferan

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This is a subject that first came about around a year ago or so for me.
I was trying to determine what would be the most objective type in the MBTI, and I felt confident in my accuracy when I decided that NTP would be more objective than any other three letters(to which I had some agreement from others that I know).

But I was then forced to determine if the ENTP or the INTP would be more objective, and I have been uncertain to this day.
The INTP could be assumed more subjective because of their rather self-contained means of thinking. We could argue that you'd need to pay more attention to the outer world to be objective, like an ENTP.

But look at it this way...

The ENTP gets much more caught up in the events around it. What I'm getting at here, is that you can sometimes be so deep in something that you lose sight of it. The INTP has the advantage of the "man from mars" effect. Social pressure and engineering should not have much affect on an INTP, where as they should on an ENTP.


In general, one might still be conceptually leaning toward the ENTP on this, but my question is also partly based on personal experience.
In my experience, the INTPs have been more objective than the ENTPs.
Is that just a fluke?

I guess the first function could make no difference at all, resulting in a tie.
 

SolitaryWalker

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This is a subject that first came about around a year ago or so for me.
I was trying to determine what would be the most objective type in the MBTI, and I felt confident in my accuracy when I decided that NTP would be more objective than any other three letters(to which I had some agreement from others that I know).

But I was then forced to determine if the ENTP or the INTP would be more objective, and I have been uncertain to this day.
The INTP could be assumed more subjective because of their rather self-contained means of thinking. We could argue that you'd need to pay more attention to the outer world to be objective, like an ENTP.

But look at it this way...

The ENTP gets much more caught up in the events around it. What I'm getting at here, is that you can sometimes be so deep in something that you lose sight of it. The INTP has the advantage of the "man from mars" effect. Social pressure and engineering should not have much affect on an INTP, where as they should on an ENTP.


In general, one might still be conceptually leaning toward the ENTP on this, but my question is also partly based on personal experience.
In my experience, the INTPs have been more objective than the ENTPs.
Is that just a fluke?

I guess the first function could make no difference at all, resulting in a tie.


INTP is more objective because of the stronger Thinking preferrence.
 

Magic Poriferan

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Oh, yes.... that.

Using that logic, that should mean an ENTJ is as objective as an INTP?
 

SolitaryWalker

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Oh, yes.... that.

Using that logic, that should mean an ENTJ is as objective as an INTP?

Slightly less, because Te is further away from the quintissence of Thinking than Ti. All introverted functions are stronger than the extroverted because the essence of all cognitive process inheres within the unconscious mind. Introverts are closer to the unconscious because they are more internally focused.
 

white

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Speaking from personal experience from 27 years living as an ENTP with an INTP:

I'd put my money on the INTP.

Reason: While both are fascinated by thoughts and possibilities, the ENTP is more likely to enjoy just having a multitude of shiny possibilities to play with, vs the INTP, who's more likely to toss and turn and pry open a single, golden sphere. So while both think objectively, I'd say the INTP objectively thinks things through, while the ENTP just has objective thoughts diarrhoea.
 

white

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Slightly less, because Te is further away from the quintissence of Thinking than Ti. All introverted functions are stronger than the extroverted because the essence of all cognitive process inheres within the unconscious mind. Introverts are closer to the unconscious because they are more internally focused.

That's an interesting one - what about the INTJ vs INTP then?
 

Night

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That's an interesting one - what about the INTJ vs INTP then?

Your typical, run-of-the-mill INTJ will probably lose to an equally-normal INTP.
 

Magic Poriferan

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Yes... the INTJ would definitely lose.

I still question, I mean severely question, the part of the MBTI system that arbitrarily dictates that J and P are reversed for I's...
I mean, it seems both weird and unhelpful at the same time... and perhaps just plainly untrue.

Does it really seem like an INTP is more focused on the Judging function and an INTJ is more focused on the Perceiving function? It doesn't to me.
Aside from that, why not just switch the names and call the INTP the INTJ and the INTJ the INTP?
Am I the only one that thinks it seems extremely pointless to have a so-called "perceiver" focus more on the judging function?
Just seems like a flaw in naming convention...

...if it's even true.
 

SolitaryWalker

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Yes... the INTJ would definitely lose.

I still question, I mean severely question, the part of the MBTI system that arbitrarily dictates that J and P are reversed for I's...
I mean, it seems both weird and unhelpful at the same time... and perhaps just plainly untrue.

Does it really seem like an INTP is more focused on the Judging function and an INTJ is more focused on the Perceiving function? It doesn't to me.
Aside from that, why not just switch the names and call the INTP the INTJ and the INTJ the INTP?
Am I the only one that thinks it seems extremely pointless to have a so-called "perceiver" focus more on the judging function?
Just seems like a flaw in naming convention...

...if it's even true.

The INTJ would 'lose' because he is less objective( less T energy) due to the secondary nature of T, and extroversion of Thinking in comparison to INTP's dominant Introverted Thinking.
 

Night

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The INTJ would 'lose' because he is less objective( less T energy) due to the secondary nature of T, and extroversion of Thinking in comparison to INTP's dominant Introverted Thinking.

Precisely.
 

substitute

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I think it'd depend on what we were being asked to be objective about.

Yes, if it's events I'm caught up in, I do find it hard to step back sometimes - but only because I temporarily forget that I can. As soon as I remember, I step right back outta the orchestra and take the conductor's stand, where I'm most comfortable.

But if it's an intellectual issue, hypothetical or basically something I'm not personally involved in, I'm just as objective as an INTP. In fact, I think possibly more so (thinking about an INTP I know here...), because to the INTP, his intellectual powers are very dear and precious, he kinda thrives on being clever and knowing everything, so if you start to question him, he gets a bit antsy and you can see his perspective has shifted from debating the issue, to defending his views.
 

Night

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I think the fundamental constant of the INTP - the Ti function - outshoots any anecdotal evidence. From an objective base, the Ti is central negotiator.

Ultimately, it becomes a question of probability – which introverted function allows for the greatest opportunity for sequential, rationally-cobbled thought.

If we remain neutral in our focus, Ti > Xy.
 

SolitaryWalker

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I think it'd depend on what we were being asked to be objective about.

Yes, if it's events I'm caught up in, I do find it hard to step back sometimes - but only because I temporarily forget that I can. As soon as I remember, I step right back outta the orchestra and take the conductor's stand, where I'm most comfortable.

But if it's an intellectual issue, hypothetical or basically something I'm not personally involved in, I'm just as objective as an INTP. In fact, I think possibly more so (thinking about an INTP I know here...), because to the INTP, his intellectual powers are very dear and precious, he kinda thrives on being clever and knowing everything, so if you start to question him, he gets a bit antsy and you can see his perspective has shifted from debating the issue, to defending his views.


Objectivity is a property of Thinking.

When the INTP gets uncomfortable he crawls into Ti more. This actually makes him think more clearly than when he is in his loosened Ne interplay mode. Far from detracting from INTP's objectivity, the INTP becomes more objective because he then moves in closer affinity with his Thinking faculty.
 

substitute

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Right, night - but I'm not sure whether the OP was asking what is the most objective function, theoretically, or which type behaves in the most objective way, either/both in theory or/and practice.

And BlueWing - INTP has the ability to behave as you describe, probably more so than ENTP - the potential I mean, I agree. However, when social anxiety kicks in for the introvert, I think it levels the playing field a bit, as INTP fails to live up to his/her potential quite often in such situations.
 

Night

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Right, night - but I'm not sure whether the OP was asking what is the most objective function, theoretically, or which type behaves in the most objective way, either/both in theory or/and practice.

I suppose it is open to interpretation.
 

Magic Poriferan

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Yes, I understand that that is how it's supposed to work, and I also agree that the INTJ is less objective, which I believe is the case because it's a J.
The inner workings of the system itself I question.
why shouldn't an INTJ be an inTj, and why shouldn't an INTP be an iNtp?

We agree that the INTJ would "lose" but for different reasons.
I think it's more subjective because it's more focused on Judging than Perceiving, as the name would imply...

I think it'd depend on what we were being asked to be objective about.

Yes, if it's events I'm caught up in, I do find it hard to step back sometimes - but only because I temporarily forget that I can. As soon as I remember, I step right back outta the orchestra and take the conductor's stand, where I'm most comfortable.

But if it's an intellectual issue, hypothetical or basically something I'm not personally involved in, I'm just as objective as an INTP. In fact, I think possibly more so (thinking about an INTP I know here...), because to the INTP, his intellectual powers are very dear and precious, he kinda thrives on being clever and knowing everything, so if you start to question him, he gets a bit antsy and you can see his perspective has shifted from debating the issue, to defending his views.

I haven't had that sort of experience with INTPs.
 

SolitaryWalker

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Right, night - but I'm not sure whether the OP was asking what is the most objective function, theoretically, or which type behaves in the most objective way, either/both in theory or/and practice.

When we talk about types, we talk about our unconscious tendencies. Not human behavior. As the former is the very definition of 'type'.
 

Magic Poriferan

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I was wondering which was most objective in practice.
 

substitute

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I haven't had that sort of experience with INTPs.

:huh: Aw c'mon, it's all over INTPc - just about every other thread is littered with examples of it...

It's what I meant about the theory and practice - INTP's often don't live up to their potential in many of these situations. A perfectly healthy one who had reached their highest potential would, yes, but I don't think you get many of those around...
 
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