• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[INTJ] General Impressions of the INTJ

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
merged posts

Increase awareness as to the calculation formulas inherent within Type evaluation.

Which would lead to what?

The only reason I ask is because I was always under the impression that typology was intended to be an individual base of information. Figuring the odds of occurrence seem trivial at best. I'm not against the idea, I just don't see it would prove very useful.

Clarification: As I see it, finding the percentages can only be put to application in predicting types of children. Even with these figures, it can only be a prediction, and would be based on the history - not on the parent's genes and upraising, both of which have proven themselves to be crucial to the development (or otherwise) of human psychology.

Also, even if we were able to calculate such things, it would be a spin of the wheel, since there are so many types, many of which would have the same chance of probability for the same birth.

Perhaps I've overlooked something?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Night

Boring old fossil
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
4,755
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5/8
merged posts

Which would lead to what?

The only reason I ask is because I was always under the impression that typology was intended to be an individual base of information. Figuring the odds of occurrence seem trivial at best. I'm not against the idea, I just don't see it would prove very useful.

Your critique is well taken.

When you say, "individual base of information", I am concluding that you mean that trait expression exists outside the context of Type placement. (I may have misinterpreted your point)

In terms of examining frequency, I think the idea might interest some. In terms of triviality, it has the same (fundamental) level of inefficacy as the exploration of any data matrix behind a description that seeks to classify broad populations on the basis of Gaussian distribution systems.

Clarification: As I see it, finding the percentages can only be put to application in predicting types of children. Even with these figures, it can only be a prediction, and would be based on the history - not on the parent's genes and upraising, both of which have proven themselves to be crucial to the development (or otherwise) of human psychology.

I agree that these elements are important to the overall order of the individual.

Dividing ourselves from the cultivating aspects that give rise to personality, statistical distribution is a mathematical expression of allocation within a set of data.

It could be compared to the impact patterns a handful of rocks make when you toss them into water. Instead of focusing on the elements that compose the rocks (or the process by which they find themselves in your palm), we concentrate on their distribution as they interact with the water.

It does not fundamentally deal with the governing associations that mold x; rather, it conveys frequency of x within a system.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
Your critique is well taken.

When you say, "individual base of information", I am concluding that you mean that trait expression exists outside the context of Type placement. (I may have misinterpreted your point)


In terms of examining frequency, I think the idea might interest some. In terms of triviality, it has the same (fundamental) level of inefficacy as the exploration of any data matrix behind a description that seeks to classify broad populations on the basis of Gaussian distribution systems.

What I meant was, not being extremely different from the above, was that it's meant as a crutch - not for global grouping. That is to say, it only has effect as a means of understanding the self. It makes extremely complex thought processes slightly more concrete, by assigning a pair of letters to each process. Of course it's generalizing and there seems to be some overlap, but MBTI is not what's on trial here. The issue I'm having here is the same I had with Toonia over on INTPc where I said "If you're going to Te something, have a reason" as after all, that's what Te is all about right? Sort of a joke. Not a very good one.

The point I'm approaching is, MBTI is decidedly personal, and seems to be too broad (at least to me) and permissive of contrasting behavior (this is a bit of an exaggeration, I admit) fitting under the same function name to put assessment of likelihood of use and preference of those functions to use.

Am I entirely off base? Interesting it may well be, but it, like the other matrices you mention can (at least in this era) only be put to work for use in marketing.

I agree that these elements are important to the overall order of the individual.

Dividing ourselves from the cultivating aspects that give rise to personality, statistical distribution is a mathematical expression of allocation within a set of data.

It could be compared to the impact patterns a handful of rocks make when you toss them into water. Instead of focusing on the elements that compose the rocks (or the process by which they find themselves in your palm), we concentrate on their distribution as they interact with the water.

It does not fundamentally deal with the governing associations that mold x; rather, it conveys frequency of x within a system.

Fair enough, but if we actually examine the analogy, we notice that if anyone is "throwing rocks" into a stream, you, Night and I are the rocks being thrown. By who, is irrelevant - we could say big business, the government, god, whoever. It doesn't matter.

I fear this is where the INTJ and the ENTP go their separate ways. For the ENTP, the divergent thinking one, knowing types, or styles, or patterns; miniscule and many, is the favorable path. It allows for plenty of ideas and predictions to come rushing in, all of which are equally exploitable. The INTJ on the other hand likes to take in extremely vast amounts of data. The essay I'm writing for this thread goes more into detail about the following: INTJs are extremely adept at predicting events with what looks like very little information. Knowing a few percentages, indeed appears, at least to me, as very little information. I don't doubt there is some grand scheme being calculated even as we speak.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

ptgatsby

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,476
MBTI Type
ISTP
I swear I will never understand NTs o_O All I can read is sarcasm (really, it's not worth stickying... If it ever comes up again, which it hasn't in years, one can link here!)
 

Night

Boring old fossil
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
4,755
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5/8
Fair enough, but if we actually examine the analogy, we notice that if anyone is "throwing rocks" into a stream, you, Night and I are the rocks being thrown. By who, is irrelevant - we could say big business, the government, god, whoever. It doesn't matter.

I fear this is where the INTJ and the ENTP go their separate ways. For the ENTP, the divergent thinking one, knowing types, or styles, or patterns; miniscule and many, is the favorable path. It allows for plenty of ideas and predictions to come rushing in, all of which are equally exploitable. The INTJ on the other hand likes to take in extremely vast amounts of data. The essay I'm writing for this thread goes more into detail about the following: INTJs are extremely adept at predicting events with what looks like very little information. Knowing a few percentages, indeed appears, at least to me, as very little information. I don't doubt there is some grand scheme being calculated even as we speak.


You continue to make good points.

I enjoy your thought process - the ENTP seems powerfully adept at appreciating the connective tissue between ideas.

Let us know how your paper comes - I'd like to hear more of your ideas.

I swear I will never understand NTs o_O All I can read is sarcasm (really, it's not worth stickying... If it ever comes up again, which it hasn't in years, one can link here!)

Sarcasm? No.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
You continue to make good points.

I enjoy your thought process - the ENTP seems powerfully adept at appreciating the connective tissue between ideas.

Let us know how your paper comes - I'd like to hear more of your ideas.

I'm writing it specifically for this thread. I didn't answer the questions to asked in the beginning but rather corrected a few people throughout the thread. I also ignored the first post on INTPc but decided belatedly that I wanted to answer it. My closer INTJ friend inspired both the black hole analogy and most of what I've written so far.
 

Night

Boring old fossil
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
4,755
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5/8
My closer INTJ friend inspired both the black hole analogy and most of what I've written so far.

How would you compare him to other INTJs you've encountered?
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
How would you compare him to other INTJs you've encountered?

Well, I only know 3 to be indubitably INTJ. The one I know best is really more innovative than anyone I've ever met. He and I are discussing making a few films. What he's described to me is leading up to what seems to be literally a full on overhaul of the industry as we know it. I realize that kind of conquest sounds reminiscent of an ENTJ, but hear me out. He has made no action toward realizing it. I'm beginning to wonder if he actually plans to implement and would rather just continue brooding; scheming until doomsday before he'll make his move.

The same seems to be taking place in his romantic life. He's yet to become involved with a woman, as he continues waiting until he finds a prey which he regards as worthy and formidable, which he can acquire the undying affection of in a single strategic pounce.

What I notice about the INTJs is that they will not make a single move until they're absolutely certain that their plan is fool proof. The less expressed on any given dichotomy lessens this trait, but the one I spoke of above is fairly strongly expressed on all four.

Now, I'll match him up against my brother, whom I know second best.

I'll say first that he's not nearly as reserved as the one I just finished describing. Still an extreme introvert (INTJs seem to be curiously more kept to themselves than any other type, at least in my experience). This one is a lot more of a sensor than the previous as well, though I can tell that he's more Se than Si. This creates often, the appearance of an ISTP, however when you look at his schoolwork you begin to realize almost immediately with extremely high scores in advanced mathematics courses that he is not an ISTP. He also is significantly more organized than any P, especially not the imposingly spread out ISTP.

Enough about that. I know my brother best as he shows himself in a game, many of you may know, called "DotA"

It's a strategy game (of course) wherein the player chooses a "hero" and does battle with the other heros while avoiding enemy "creeps" which are smaller characters who can't carry items and have less health and do less damage. Their function is to destroy the enemy towers, when aided by a hero. The towers' destruction leads the the crown jewel, the frozen throne which has to be destroyed to achieve victory. Killing creeps and heros is rewarded with extra gold, which can be spent to build a stronger arsenal of weaponry. This will of course make getting other kills much easier.

I outline the objective and means of the game so I can do the same of my brother's strategy. It's a very capitalist game, and I absolutely suck at it. My brother however is a genius. He's figured out that the key to winning is a good start, as is the case with any capitalist system. Of course he'll never tell anyone (not even his own dear brother) how to win, as it might lower his chances for success. In any event, his usual tactic is to dwindle another hero's health down to where he can strike with a single spell and end their life, whence they must wait for reincarnation and walk back into the battle. This causes not only an increase in his revenue, but a decrease in his enemy's and a loss of experience points during the away time.

Suffice to say he's mastered the semantics of the game to where he can experiment with whatever item build he chooses and can always make it work. It seems, he's especially good at predicting the other character's item builds, and is known how to react accordingly. This is of course only an undercurrent to his larger schemes which he shares with, I presume no one.

Going back to the first INTJ I mention, I'd like to discuss one of his interests. Actually, I wouldn't like to discuss the interest rather, I'm more interested to discuss WHY he's interested in it, since I actually have very little knowledge in the field.

He's become immensely engrossed in fighting: martial arts. He says it's all about being able to defend himself when he needs to, but sometimes (rarely - he has trouble opening up and sharing much, though is able to express himself to me) discusses the philosophy of fighting. He doesn't say so explicitly, but one gets the sense that he feels some spirituality, (much like bruce lee's philosophy of fighting) in the art. More often, we discuss strategies. He doesn't describe in detail any maneuvers but rather emphasizes that the attacks he's learning could be used in conjunction and with the right force and timing he could literally cripple any opponent. Even one twice his size.

This is I think thanks to Te being more openly expressed than Ni. The philosophy seems highly obscure and poorly developed, though it could just be that with weak linguistic skills (never been an interest of his) he has difficulty conveying the points and feelings he gets. Especially since it comes from deeply internalized intuition, where all is reduced to clumps of information which take the form of symbols. These things are very difficult to express, due to the great mass of each concept created by intuition. This is why, I think, the perception of the NJ variety is kept within. Speaking of a single concept is simply too much, and often there aren't words to succinctly define what is to be conveyed. So inward goes the information and is instead put forth via thinking, at least in NTJs.

He's much more interested in art than anyone I've ever met. Though interest is probably not a good word to describe what art is for him. He's expressed on several occasions incredibly profound realization from observing artistic pieces and compositions.

I can only speculate as to what it all means to him and what kind of spiritual journeys he's been through. If anyone has ever seen "Pirates of Silicon Valley" think about Steve Jobs. My kid I'm talking about is like an extremely reserved version of Steve, though his visions are no less grandiose and open to ingenuity and innovation.

How's that Night?

Addition: The closer of my INTJ friends seems to have a raging emotional side. Very little energy is devoted to it, but what's there appears to be scrutiny of self. The same mercurial Fi that IxFPs often sadden themselves with (over whatever things - lost makeup in the sensing or genocide in the intuiting one) seems to be active in my calculating friend. It may have taken years for him to open that up to me, but I've managed to record a few shimmers of the highly held within function.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Night

Boring old fossil
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
4,755
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5/8
Thank you very, very much Nocapszy.

Your observations are highly informative.
 

ps646566

New member
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
32
MBTI Type
INTJ
It actually wasn't the opening, I had very polite introduction to it. :D

But for you to say that you can't be unrealistic?
I think you need a chip knocked of your shoulder. :whistling:

Sorry, you've lost me with that one. What does unwillingness to be unrealistic have to do with having a chip on one's shoulder ?
 

Night

Boring old fossil
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
4,755
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5/8
Addition: The closer of my INTJ friends seems to have a raging emotional side. Very little energy is devoted to it, but what's there appears to be scrutiny of self. The same mercurial Fi that IxFPs often sadden themselves with (over whatever things - lost makeup in the sensing or genocide in the intuiting one) seems to be active in my calculating friend. It may have taken years for him to open that up to me, but I've managed to record a few shimmers of the highly held within function.

What was his emotional expression?
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
What was his emotional expression?

The negative he told me about consisted of him noticing something he did bothered someone else and he spent a good amount of time wondering why, and what to do about it. Of course he only became worried about offending those he felt close to. Also, he seemed to have a lot of NF moralization, though as I said, his thinking was the weakest expressed of the scales.

Specifically, he stated on numerous occasions that he had a lot of hatred for poachers. He even once said that if he ever saw one, he would tear them apart with his bare hands. My guess is he was exaggerating, but I can't be sure. I's be willing to bet that if he were an E, he would probably seek poachers out and attack them.

The positive side of what I've seen comes in a package similar to what I receive from you. Highly appreciative and willing complements.
 

Night

Boring old fossil
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
4,755
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5/8
Specifically, he stated on numerous occasions that he had a lot of hatred for poachers. He even once said that if he ever saw one, he would tear them apart with his bare hands. My guess is he was exaggerating, but I can't be sure. I's be willing to bet that if he were an E, he would probably seek poachers out and attack them.

The positive side of what I've seen comes in a package similar to what I receive from you. Highly appreciative and willing complements.

Thank you.

I am familiar with my limitations. Emotional transference being the primary weakness within my personality. Many times, I do not intend to be "rude" or "contentious"; rather, it becomes a byproduct of my willingness to speak my opinion.

I would imagine your friend experiences a similar inequality.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
Thank you.

I am familiar with my limitations. Emotional transference being the primary weakness within my personality. Many times, I do not intend to be "rude" or "contentious"; rather, it becomes a byproduct of my willingness to speak my opinion.

I would imagine your friend experiences a similar inequality.

Just as often though he does intend to be rude. Actually, rude isn't the word. Adverse is probably more appropriate. Intentionally disagreeing. This only takes place when he knows nothing (and subsequently hasn't formed his own opinion) of the topic and dislikes whoever he's conversing with (a tactic I believe may be used for getting whoever it is to go away). If the subject matter is something he's familiar with, he's no doubt got an opinion and will dis/agree with anyone respectively.
 

Magic Poriferan

^He pronks, too!
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
14,081
MBTI Type
Yin
Enneagram
One
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Sorry, you've lost me with that one. What does unwillingness to be unrealistic have to do with having a chip on one's shoulder ?

It's not about the unwillingness, it's the capability.
No one, regardless of their type, can always be realistic.
It's kind of a grand claim.
 

MacGuffin

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
10,710
MBTI Type
xkcd
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Impressions of the INTJ that I know...

Superior.
That attitude, which I know is not really a concious decision, has to be one of the most annoying things. Especially when you've spotted the gaping flaw in their thinking and try to casually drop the information in their lap and make as little fuss about it as possible. This is then taken as an act of war and an iron curtain drops for the rest of the evening and may spill over into future evenings.

The Damaz Kron.
The INTJ I know has an almost old wife level of grudge bearing. One small slight will be recalled to be dragged over again and again until victory is achieved. Always seems strange to me that a supposed NT can hold on to such things for so long. Most often I've forgotten about it all when I rise the next morning.

Competition.
Okay most of the time this INTJ will not be drawn out into competition...not until victory is assured. I'm thinking that Sun Tzu was an INTJ and the whole thing with making women fight is a perfect example of the problems which can manifest in this type of person.

There is a cold front moving in from the west.
I'm not sure why it is but the whole struggle to maintain a cold exterior and generally cut anyone dead who tries to approach further than their assigned holding pattern is very chilling to me. God knows how more sensitive people deal with him.

Oh and this whole thing is made doubly worse by skipping between the whole warm ESFP thing and then the INTJ shield of cold rolled steel. Batfink has nothing on this guy.

One shot, one kill.
If I were to vote a type most likely to become an assassin then I think that INTJs would be top of the list. It's uncomfortable being held at arms length and it's even more uncomfortable when the internal random selector target me and I find myself the focus of all the criticism for the evening.

One could apply a lot of this to ISTJs as well. In fact I wonder if the large number of INTJs people say they know are really ISTJs. They behave in similar ways, but one has to get to the motivations to see the differences.

BTW, INTJs absolutely loathe being compared to ISTJs. It's fun to annoy them with this.

Personally I watched House and thought "At last a true role model for the budding INTJ".

Too bad he's an extravert!

black hole analogy
Psst! "Howling void of nothingness"!
 

Magic Poriferan

^He pronks, too!
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
14,081
MBTI Type
Yin
Enneagram
One
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
House isn't an Extravert!
He hates dealing with anybody other than his own circle, and he practically hates them, too. He risks his job just to avoid giving presentations. He also spends tons of time alone, and needs it to come up with a solution. Sometimes, when he's with other people when it happens, he just suddenly tunes out the entire world. God knows that's what I do.
Just because he's adroit doesn't mean he's an Extravert.

I also disagree with the theory that he's a Five. People say that just because he's a misanthropic genius. I say he's actually an Eight.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
...

Psst! "Howling void of nothingness"!

I don't get it. Did I miss something? Did I miss something so obvious that I didn't need to write what I did. Ew... now I feel almost unclean. Thanks alot...

House isn't an Extravert!
He hates dealing with anybody other than his own circle, and he practically hates them, too.
Yes he is. I'm an E also and I hate dealing with people. Remember for ENTPs is people's primary functions is to serve as an audience. Especially if they applaud. Friends and foes are optional. ENTPs can be just as detached socially as INTPs, they're just louder about it and spend less time Tiing and more time Neing.

MacG's right.
He risks his job just to avoid giving presentations.
ENTPs can't? Come on now. If an ENTP thinks the presentation is stupid or a waste of time, they'll do everything they can to avoid it. An INTP will actually more likely trudge through it, unless confronted directly. ENTP will just find a way around it, which is what he does.

He also spends tons of time alone, and needs it to come up with a solution.
ENTP can't spend tons of time alone? ENTP doesn't need time alone to work on logical systems?
Sometimes, when he's with other people when it happens, he just suddenly tunes out the entire world.
Yes, classic Ne turning to Ti to check for validity.
God knows that's what I do.
Just because he's adroit doesn't mean he's an Extravert.
No, but there are plenty of other qualities about him that do.
 

alcea rosea

New member
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
Messages
3,658
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w6
The INTJ's I have met (and know that they are such because I asked) have been:
- intelligent
- interesting (the common N-thing, I guess)
- well structured
- good conversationists
- they make good presentations (not too much details for ENFP's taste, but usually the big picture that I so much love :blush:)
 

ps646566

New member
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
32
MBTI Type
INTJ
It's not about the unwillingness, it's the capability.
No one, regardless of their type, can always be realistic.
It's kind of a grand claim.

Yes of course. What I said was a simplification. Expanded, I am trying to say that I never knowingly make judgments or take actions other on than the basis of a realistic appraisal of circumstances and likely consequences. That's not to say that, like everyone else, I don't sometimes fall foul of self delusion. But I believe that this personality type less prone to it than most, and that has an upside and a downside.
 
Top