[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Ti and the social world

[the state i am in]

i think this is far more prescient for e5 Ti users. 5 is so over-anxious, thinking, learning, mastering, that it's pretty shitty at adapting, devoting its attention 100% in the moment. i learned i was burning shit when i would cook something bc i wasn't using my eyes (inferior Se). 5 is so extra distractable (by its own thoughts)

 

[proteanmix]

So, how do you use Ti and Fe together at once? Or, even switching between the two at will?

I believe it's very possible to use Fe and Ti closely together, like within a matter of microseconds. I'm not sure if you can be running on both at the same time. I also think it depends on how comfortable a person is switching between the two modes and allowing them both to have a voice you trust.

Uncensored Ti for me tends to be blips/foot it mouth that occur faster than Fe has a chance to "dress it up." They tend to be more critical observations and thoughts about various persons, places, or things that that I'm thinking about and are exiting my mouth at nearly the same pace I'm thinking them.

When Ti is running in the background while I'm relating to other people it just reminds me to evaluate what they're saying. For example, if someone's telling me about something they obviously want my sympathy or reassurance about I can go the Fe route and offer it without question or I can buffer that with some Ti and think (usually keep these thoughts to myself) why do they want me to validate their POV? Is there anything inconsistent about what they're saying? I can then choose how I output once I've thought about these things. I know the above tends to kick in a lot when some of my silly girl coworkers are complaining about not getting a text returned or they're so stressed out because they inadvertently scheduled a hair appointment at the same time they said they'd meet a friend for lunch over the weekend. Such a conundrum!:rolli:

Well, I really am not sure how one could have Ti and Fe run concurrently. The only way I can see it happening is if you switch between the two for each decision. One problem I have with Fe is that I can get carried away, so there has to be some way to restrain it when it gets out of hand... That's the biggest problem for me, anyway.

I think that's pretty accurate. When I'm totally coasting on Fe + Pe everybody is an old friend, funny, say the most profound things, good-looking, there are no mean people, the atmosphere has a good vibe, and the MD 20/20 tastes like perfectly chilled Cristal. And then after it's all over you have to text all your friends and apologize for if you embarrassed them and then they say I think you should be more concerned with if you embarrassed yourself. Being the wonderful friends they are, they promise to untag your pictures on Facebook (the really good ones let you delete them from the camera!) and remind you that you told several people your name was Desdemona so if anybody calls you that run quickly in the opposite direction.

Basic social advice an ESFJ told me once--keep things light. I hope most here would get a sense of epiphany from that. Lol!

That's true, nobody likes a wet blanket. I've had my wet blanket moments--those were times when I felt like I just couldn't let statements or conversations go by without correction.

RE small talk: How often do you guys really have to engage in it? Looking at my social interactions, I work with mostly the same people I've worked with that last three years and we've moved beyond the small talk phase. Maybe I have a different idea of what small talk is...I've found that the longer I've known people even if it's just professionally the more likely we are to get past asking if somebody watches Dancing with the Stars.

Outside of work, I'm mostly with people I choose to be around so we're still not small talking. The only time I have to small talk is when I'm with people I've just met and know very little about and I consider that just basic "getting to know" stuff. Whenever I hear this I wonder if no one is making the volley to go beyond Phase 1 so it may feel like you're stuck in perpetual small talk land.

 

[yenom]

I've been alive for 20 years. I am an INTP, and thus, my strongest function is Ti. I have encountered many things in my life, and found myself in many different types of social situations. I'm quite confident I have explored nearly the full limitations and potential of Ti. Through having the MBTI system revealed to me, I have made great strides in the past couple of years in terms of personal growth and understanding (of myself and others). Recently I have fully come to terms with one simple truth: Ti is vastly limited in usefulness for personal social situations. On its own, it is just not equipped to deal with the variability, ambiguity, and emotional/irrational aspects that come to play in our interpersonal relationships. Its tendency towards inner analysis is far too inefficient to be of use in the present, or to actually hash out solutions and clear understanding of others through post-situational analysis. While the combination of Ti and perceiving functions like Ne can yield some great insights, these "insights" are, in fact, not things that can be regularly applied and are thus not very useful in the personal world. This form of thinking and analysis is wholly unfit and fruitless when one wishes to simply enjoy interacting with people and relating to people in "normal" ways.

Ti is useful to interact with people who are also strong in Ti (aka nerds).
I get bored in conversation with no Ti involved at all.
It is the search for the truth through analyzing and dissecting.

 

[Totenkindly]

I always imagined Ti as being a sense of "fairness" in the area of relationships. Combined with a bit of Fe, it leads to a nice system of mutual reciprocity. Ti doesn't need to be purely formal logic. In the context of relationships, Ti can use any sort of sensible and reasonable approach to evaluate a situation. Ti is a function of using systems. Logic is one such system. All Ti needs to have more utility is a little recalibration to a different arena. Clarify, systematize, and evaluate.

Excellent OP, and a good response here...

"Sense of fairness" -- yes, that is the BEST way to use Ti and what I do instinctively nowadays. I seem to get less offended by people violating their relationship to me (e.g., "You are supposed to be my parent, so you should have treated me like <this>") and far more offended when the rules they impose on our relationship are inconsistently treated (e.g., "As my parent and I your child, you are insisting on <this this and this> from me, but you are not reciprocating fairly if that level of standard is to be imposed; thus, you are not fair; thus, you need either to change your expectations for me or you need to start meeting your obligations in MY eyes; i do not care which, but it needs to be consistent.")

I also find I use Ti+Ne to get a sense of who someone is and "where they are at," so I can tailor my response to their behavior accordingly rather than expecting something from them that is unfair or they are incapable of giving. However, this can go the other way: If I think someone is capable of something, then I DO expect it of them and can seem unmerciful. "mercy" is not really an operative word; instead, "appropriate, consistent, and/or reasonable" are the operative terms.

In my teens and most of 20's, I did try to approach conversations with Ti as the primary factor. What happened? I could occasionally find someone who was full of thoughts and we'd talk for hours and days on end. Otherwise, in most conversations i said nothing because I was either (1) bored to death or (2) quietly critical of the lack of intelligence/coherence in the other person's thinking. #2 either left me wanting to get out of there before a conflict happened or else consistently created arguments as I would impersonally tear apart comments that for the other person were not originally offered for such critique.

Overall, Ti+Ne+Si is best used to discern what's going on and to devise strategy for how to approach a conversation based on desired outcome, but the actual social engagement benefits more if N and F are given more rein to steer the sled.

It's most depressing. I wish I could enjoy small talk, as it must be such a relaxing form of entertainment.

it took me literally years to figure out how to do this and then feel comfortable doing it enough to enjoy it for what it was. I never really "got in the flow" with it until my mid 30's.

... i learned i was burning shit when i would cook something bc i wasn't using my eyes (inferior Se). 5 is so extra distractable (by its own thoughts)

ha... the other night I burned my chicken because i was, uh, off answering intellectual questions on a forum... when I came out, the place was full of smoke. I was only going to be gone for a minute!

 

[INTPness]

Interesting thread. Right before I read the OP, I was thinking about how I really believe that my Ti is more "exacting" or "precise" than Te is for Te users (on average), but the problem with that is that if I'm having a conversation with someone and am presented with an important decision to make or a response that needs some sort of contemplation, I almost need to say, "Give me 10 minutes" - then go into the bathroom, lock the door, funnel the situation through my Ti, and then I can reach that very exacting, precise, well-thought out decision. Te users are quick on their toes and able to come up with solutions/answers on the spot.

So, that's one way to describe Ti, at least from my perspective. It is extremely precise and very good at cutting out the excess "fat" in any given situation. I've seen Ni described as being aware of many possibilities. Ne sees possibilities as well, but then Ti effectively eliminates all of the less desirable situations in very quick fashion.

Let's say that I need to accomplish some task very quickly. A family member is in a pinch and needs money within 3 hours to get out of some situation (just an example that comes to mind). I will immediately think of all the different possibilities by which I can accomplish this task within the alloted time. Let's say that I come up with 4 different "possible ways" that this can be accomplished.

I sit and think about those 4 possibilities for a moment. I run them through the Ti filter. I may even jot down some diagram (not for something as simple as this, but for something more complex). I might discover that 1 of the 4 "possibilities" really isn't possible - it would take longer than 3 hours. That's off the list. It no longer matters - it's now completely irrelevant and anyone who brings it up as a possible solution at this point is just being annoying because I've already thought it through, mapped it out, checked into it and I KNOW that it won't work. It's now out of the discussion and I don't want to talk about it or think about it - it's just wasting time. Now I have 3 possibilities to work with. My analysis tells me that they are all "possible", but option #1 could possibly "not work" - there's some chance the money won't get there in time. So, it's still an option, but I'm not too happy with it because it could fail me. Option #2 would definitely work, but it requires a lot of running around, filling out of paperwork, requires me to leave work - a real hassle, although it would work. Option #3 will also work but it also has some hang-ups, although not as much as option #2.

So, I determine that option #3 is the "best, most efficient way of getting this project done." So, I discard option #1 (it could fail), and I keep option #2 on the back burner, a plan B so to speak, but mainly I have cut out all other distractions and irrelevant discussions and I'm going with option #3. It truly is the best option and I know it is. But, I woudn't know that if I didn't have time to think about it/analyze it/research it. I can't usually come up with that type of response on the spot. It requires reflection. But, once that reflection (which requires alone time) has been had, I know that I've reached the most efficient response.

This could apply to anything in life, I think.

While Ti is limited in its ability to come up with an immediate response, I do not agree that Ti is useless in society. If we are given the time and space to run things through Ti, we are extremely efficient, knowledgeable, and together with Ne we can come up with some really interesting ways to contribute our knowledge and passions to others, society, and the world.

 

[INTPness]

In regards to "knowing" that we are making the most efficient decision possible, I would add this: I've read comments on here about INFJ's being able to see that someone is emotionally immature or extremely out of touch with their own emotions. The INFJ just knows this because they are so in-tune with their own emotions that when they see someone else who is less in-tune with their own emotions, the INFJ can spot it from a mile away.

When the INTP has had ample time to run things through Ti, there is a very, very high "success rate" with that particular decision. Without being given time for Ti, this does not hold true. Our success rate is significantly lower in these situations. We make a decision on the spot and regret it later. We think, "I should have thought that through! I should have known!" With Ti being utilized, the decision is so well-thought out, that it just works - because it truly is the best, most efficient method (maybe not the best in terms of taking everyone into consideration), but the best in terms of efficiency (that's the whole T vs. F thing, another debate altogether).

But, I would argue that we know that our Ti-based decisions are the most efficient decision because of the high success rate we experience (again, only when Ti is utilized), but also because (much like the INFJ), we see others who haven't utilized Ti fumbling all over themselves at times. For example (and this is not to pick on any one type, just an illustration), I have worked for an ESTJ boss before, who was a VERY good decision maker. I truly admired his ability to make quick and accurate decisions. It was amazing to me at times. But, there were also times (not a lot, but they did occur) where he made what he thought to be the BEST decision and, indeed, it was not. And he was so set in his ways, that he wouldn't let me explain why his way wasn't best. He didn't want to hear it. So, I would watch as he set out to do it "his way", all the while knowing that there was a much better way that would have saved significant time, money, and/or resources because I had already thought it out completely/did the research, weighed all the possible options, etc, etc.

So, like the INFJ who sees when someone is incompetent with their emotions, we can also see when someone is making an inefficient decision or a decision where there is a better option available. We can spot it from a mile away.

 

[Valuable_Money]

Link: PersonalityDesk - Resources - Compatibility and Your Myers-Briggs

" * Some types showed greater partner dissatisfaction in general. Women married to INTP men had the highest level of dissatisfaction, at 31%."


The I is for Impotence

 

[Totenkindly]

" * Some types showed greater partner dissatisfaction in general. Women married to INTP men had the highest level of dissatisfaction, at 31%."

The I is for Impotence

We should also have a C in there somewhere... for "clueless."

*waiting for the inevitable INTPc joke*

 

[JocktheMotie]

Ti in general, and this was brought up in another thread here and I thought it was a fantastic observation, is probably the most anti-social function there is. Whatever it sees, it breaks down, strips the excess and erroneous data away to make the underlying principle or law more apparent. It also feeds on itself, which will make anyone that uses Ti dominantly tend to over think, over analyze, and occasionally get themselves into a very internal and cynical mode.

Socialization, is basically all excess and erroneous data. At least I tend to think it is. For me, in a social situation, I am constantly stripping away facade and applying a cynical and analytical view upon people in general. A Ti user will over analyze, over think, and frequently misinterpret socialization as Ti tries to remove and devalue the very behavior that makes socialization work. Couple a dominant Ti with an inferior Fe, and you've got an individual that has little understanding and patience for outwardly expressed emotion, feeling, and social etiquette.

Ne, on the other hand, is perfect for socialization. The trick to my socialization is for me to be comfortable enough to use my second function with confidence, and to only use my Ti at the request of Ne, and not the other way around as I usually do it. Ne use allows me to be comfortable, make funny observations and jokes, and be relatively in tune with the mood of my surroundings to make for a perfectly functioning person. If I can do this, I will often come across as very likable and sociable and very ENTPish.

This was from a while ago, but I still think it's relevant. I do find Ti and Fe impossible to use together, but I think Fe doms have an easier time with Ti than vice versa.

 

[milkyway2]

real world example?

 

[Cypocalypse]

Ironically, for a thread about socializing, this is among the most Ti extensive. It's starting to mock itself, actually. Sorry for the sarcasm.

 

[the state i am in]

This was from a while ago, but I still think it's relevant. I do find Ti and Fe impossible to use together, but I think Fe doms have an easier time with Ti than vice versa.

i think you can use them to understand what Fe will accomplish. Ti is part of the process that makes Fe refine itself, get smarter, learn how to play/sell itself better, etc.

Ti by nature is cynical (dictionary says captious, peevish, and distrustful), it has its own project of figuring out how shit works. it is so analytical, it will remove many of the layers and veils and judgments of others, will internally criticize them, will apply different strategies to this process, etc. so it can find a lot of ways in which it thinks the other person, the situation, the whole world is wrong. Ne just helps loosen this up, makes it more fun, situates it in a better way. it doesn't have to be teh whole of you or of the situation or of your life and of your self/part/way of participating. but it absolutely is a huge part of whatever it is you contribute.

also, in honor of Ti, i'd like to clarify that Ti is far more geek more than nerd. Ti cosmology begins with arrogance, out of which all things emanate (only i know the real ______).

 

[Cypocalypse]

Some basic socializing guide for Ti dominant peeps. I wanted to post this weeks ago but I just don't have the time.

1. I know you wanna give others the benefit of the doubt, but the truth is, other people may not be as smart as you. Learn to tone down your rhetoric. True enough, others could be dumber. (something that other "smarter" archetypes, especially INFPs, should also learn)

2. Let your Ne explore areas that need not be intellectual, e.g., pop culture. Pop culture need not always be dumb. There's enough areas there to tickle your intellectualizing Ti. It's a better ground of conversation than let's say, Philosophy or Religion. You can use this as an initiating point in conversing with other people. In other areas, NTPs may not be able to relate to, e.g., career planning, household chores, etc. Pop culture is a viable common ground.

3. I do consider myself an ENTP, and honestly, socializing isn't a perfect fit for me. I feel like the most introverted extrovert or the most extroverted introvert. I feel stuck somewhere in between. And I think a lot of ENTPs can attest to this. There are types that I prefer interacting with more than the other e.g., ENTPs, healthy INTPs, ENFJs, INFJs, INFPs. Though seriously, if I'm in a social circle of these types, it may feel a bit awkward, even if I actually like them. It doesn't feel that much of a legit socializing to me.

4. Really, I do admit that socializing is an SF thing, and I have to make certain compromises. Though experience-wise, ESFJs aren't always the stereotypical nagging bitches, and ESFPs the reckless party girls, as portrayed in MBTI forums. There are accomodating (very) people from these types (a strong tertiary N perhaps). Even if they may think you're quirky, they do accept you.

Will post more later.