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[ENTJ] how do you argue with an ENTJ?

Valiant

Courage is immortality
Joined
Jul 7, 2007
Messages
3,895
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
8w7
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I know this particular block... It's very much like Ezra says. Do NOT mix feelings/opinions with facts. Use facts and never speculate. Don't get angry or upset, stay calm. And never look like you're in doubt.
 

JustDave

New member
Joined
Jan 20, 2008
Messages
992
MBTI Type
xNTP
... and when in doubt push'em down a flight of stairs. That always does the trick :devil:
 

hotmale

New member
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
232
MBTI Type
ESTJ
From my experience with ENTJ debators- they are not necessarily interested in "winning" an argument- but clarifying positions and finding similarities in thinking. I sort of think of it as chipping away at an iceberg- the more you do- the deeper into the sea you fall into, with the tip being the most shallow and vague.

They are not interested in linear logic either- and tend to want to disprove anything cited with a statistic, more geared towards interconnecting ideas and segmenting them into categories.

I've noticed a common tactic by some skilled ENTJ debators is that they'll pretend to agree with their opponent on a minor point, hence disarming them, then will use devil's advocate of their opponent's argument using flawed logic, hence winning the argument by default.

Of course, this is on a formal basis. If you're attempting to win an argument with someone you're in a romantic relationship with, don't bother. ENTJs will suddenly become extremely angry and nitpick every single one of your flaws mercilessly until you're in tears.
 

elfinchilde

a white iris
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
1,465
MBTI Type
type
How on earth does one argue a point with ENTJs? They seem so entirely convinced that they are more logical and correct than I am!

You can't argue with an ENTJ. You can, however, win an argument with one.

What i call the concubine's trick. i.e., Approach from a position of submission. Make him/her believe you *really, really* want it this way, and with a "please, i'm dependent on your mercy, you are so big/strong/powerful" shtick, *hero-worshipping eyes* so that he'll 'generously' give in to you. ENTJs have a lot of pride and self confidence. They want to be looked up to. The 'lower' they think you are, the more likely they'll let their guard down around you, and dismiss you as competition, hence giving way to you.

you gotta be machiavellian enough to do so though. not all may be willing. but if banging your head against a brick wall isn't going to bring it down, then, why not flow around the obstacle? the ends justify the means.

:devil:
 

hotmale

New member
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
232
MBTI Type
ESTJ
You can't argue with an ENTJ. You can, however, win an argument with one.

What i call the concubine's trick. i.e., Approach from a position of submission. Make him/her believe you *really, really* want it this way, and with a "please, i'm dependent on your mercy, you are so big/strong/powerful" shtick, *hero-worshipping eyes* so that he'll 'generously' give in to you. ENTJs have a lot of pride and self confidence. They want to be looked up to. The 'lower' they think you are, the more likely they'll let their guard down around you, and dismiss you as competition, hence giving way to you.

I don't think this would work with any ENTJs I know of. But it would probably work with ENFP males.

you gotta be machiavellian enough to do so though. not all may be willing. but if banging your head against a brick wall isn't going to bring it down, then, why not flow around the obstacle? the ends justify the means.

:devil:
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
7,263
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
1933shovel.jpg
 

theshadow

New member
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Messages
123
MBTI Type
enfj
You can't argue with an ENTJ. You can, however, win an argument with one.

What i call the concubine's trick. i.e., Approach from a position of submission. Make him/her believe you *really, really* want it this way, and with a "please, i'm dependent on your mercy, you are so big/strong/powerful" shtick, *hero-worshipping eyes* so that he'll 'generously' give in to you. ENTJs have a lot of pride and self confidence. They want to be looked up to. The 'lower' they think you are, the more likely they'll let their guard down around you, and dismiss you as competition, hence giving way to you.

you gotta be machiavellian enough to do so though. not all may be willing. but if banging your head against a brick wall isn't going to bring it down, then, why not flow around the obstacle? the ends justify the means.

:devil:

im really tired so im not going to say no. but huh? really? that doesnt seem like what should be done with an entj. my advice is simple/ use there system to of thinking to undermine themselves once you have done that you pretty much can tell them what you want. "its a respect thing,"

hotmales comment about enfp's makes more since.
 

Ezra

Luctor et emergo
Joined
Dec 12, 2007
Messages
534
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
8w7
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
From my experience with ENTJ debators- they are not necessarily interested in "winning" an argument- but clarifying positions and finding similarities in thinking.

They are not interested in linear logic either- and tend to want to disprove anything cited with a statistic, more geared towards interconnecting ideas and segmenting them into categories.

The problem is when someone accuses the ENTJ of simply trying to win by proving flaws in their opponent's logic. This may not be the case, and if not, it can be very annoying. It's really undermining to the ENTJ.
 

elfinchilde

a white iris
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
1,465
MBTI Type
type
I don't think this would work with any ENTJs I know of. But it would probably work with ENFP males.

im really tired so im not going to say no. but huh? really? that doesnt seem like what should be done with an entj. my advice is simple/ use there system to of thinking to undermine themselves once you have done that you pretty much can tell them what you want. "its a respect thing,"

hotmales comment about enfp's makes more since.

well. whatever works, i'll take it. :devil:

had cited it as a personal experience actually, worked like a charm for me. forgot one thing though: gender difference. perhaps it matters when dealing with them? ;) plus, different entjs would react differently, i guess. depending on the degree of how strongly ENTJ they are.

dinner time! :bye:
 

Mr.Miagi

New member
Joined
May 1, 2007
Messages
19
MBTI Type
INTP
Attack the ENTJ personally through using smart rethoric and logical fallacies he/she would be too slow to respond to. This will put him/her of balance. Then, using your vast ammunition of rationality and logic, go for the kill (throat area preferrably). The ENTJ would back off. Consequence? Victory.

I speak from experience.

P.S.
In fact, this strategy works against all types, except the INTP, or perhaps ENTP also.
 

Electric

New member
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
80
MBTI Type
entj
Attack the ENTJ personally through using smart rethoric and logical fallacies he/she would be too slow to respond to. This will put him/her of balance. Then, using your vast ammunition of rationality and logic, go for the kill (throat area preferrably). The ENTJ would back off. Consequence? Victory.

I speak from experience.

P.S.
In fact, this strategy works against all types, except the INTP, or perhaps ENTP also.

Hahaha Yeah I could see how Ti could be used to deconstruct the best of logical constructions. My Ti friend get by life gracefully by deconstructing the possibility benefits/cost of the laptop industry into mathematical algorithms.

Anyways, I believe launching a volley of logical fallacies can be fruitless if most of them miss their mark. First of all, if Ti is purely subjective(influenced by inferior Fe) than it is not represented in the information systems(Ni) that supplies the ENTJ's construction opportunity resources(Te). It is possible that a few missiles will hit, but it's unlikely that logic that's more intent on finding the parts of a singular system(Ne or Se) will be able to dispatch the conglomerate of systems that comes with Ni. A person may see victory for proving the ENTJ wrong on a fact, but the worth is relative to the importance of the fact and the purpose.

Ti vs Te can be a battle lost in translation especially if Ti is used with no foresight and only for hindsight. For Te, it is vice versa. Since Ti is more about originations and Te is more about destinations, there are different emphasis on how to see the light.
 

Mr.Miagi

New member
Joined
May 1, 2007
Messages
19
MBTI Type
INTP
A person may see victory for proving the ENTJ wrong on a fact, but the worth is relative to the importance of the fact and the purpose.

Of course, but still, it's always a good idea to keep your options open (fallacies are one of them). And besides, a lot of NT's enter arguments just for the sake of arguing, and not always regarding the importance of the fact.
 

Haight

Doesn't Read Your Posts
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
6,232
MBTI Type
INTj
And besides, a lot of NT's enter arguments just for the sake of arguing, and not always regarding the importance of the fact.
THAT POINT IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE!

And. . . what "facts" are we talking about here?
 
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