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[NT] INTP Rebellion

Schizm

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I just now realized, at the age of 24, that my desire to rebel against the system caused me to miss a lot of opportunity. Several opportunities for development were sabotaged. Is this a common realization for INTP's(or INTJ's?) approaching their middle 20's?
 

Totenkindly

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Honestly, I think it's common for many people regardless of type.

Adolescence and young adulthood is a very hellish time, trying to define yourself and determine your life calling. A lot of it is spent reactively (for some more than others, I admit), pushing against the system that is attempt to dominate that journey.

But that struggle is necessary if the individual is ever to break away and become truly autonomous.

You're just moving to the next step now and seeing how you might have shot yourself in the foot, and how society can actually benefit you in some ways. You do not have to reject everything in order to find yourself. Part of growth is learning one's place in a community and how to both give and receive help.

So don't fret. Just take advantage of your burgeoning awareness and find those opportunities. :)
 

ptgatsby

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I just now realized, at the age of 24, that my desire to rebel against the system caused me to miss a lot of opportunity. Several opportunities for development were sabotaged. Is this a common realization for INTP's(or INTJ's?) approaching their middle 20's?

I can safely say that it is worse for ISTPs... and yes, I fought "the man" tooth and claw until I matured a bit.

Still, that instinct comes back... often under stress... and at the worst times.
 

cascadeco

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I actually wonder if it's more of a mid-20's thing?? I know of many others who have had some serious adjustment issues post-college, and coming to terms with having to work the rest of your life.... in fact in another forum I frequent an entire thread was devoted to it, entitled 'Quarter Life Crisis'. :) Personally I'm extremely happy my mid twenties are behind me, because I think they sucked. Not that it's that way for everyone, obviously. ;-P

I know I went through a good 2-3 yrs of being seriously disillusioned and very anti-corporate, but I kinda worked through that stuff and now see things a bit differently.....

Not that you're going through the exact same scenario, but anyway.
 

Totenkindly

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My one INTP friend in college had a humorous turn-around.

He was a comp sci major, a hacker type (good-natured), never shaved or cut his hair, dressed like a slob, and his favorite pair of pants had a hole in them that he fixed by wrapping a piece of gray duct tape (!) the whole way around the thigh. He looked like he lived in a Dumpster, to be honest. And he would always rail against big business, large corporations, etc., too.

And then a few years later, it turns out he wore slacks, a white shirt, and tie every day to the office, and made more money than just about anyone else, as a part of corporate America.

(Needless to say, he was mercilessly ribbed for it. And there wasn't much he could do but laugh too...)
 

Roger Mexico

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I just now realized, at the age of 24, that my desire to rebel against the system caused me to miss a lot of opportunity. Several opportunities for development were sabotaged. Is this a common realization for INTP's(or INTJ's?) approaching their middle 20's?

I would imagine it is. I'm in the thick of it, and the problem is that basic rationalizations don't work--sure, 'everybody goes through this,' but I'm not everybody. Every act in furtherance of socially-recognized goals (i.e. "get a job") feels like capitulation to something I've been fighting my whole life. I can almost see manifestations of the systemic logic I find to be hopelessly flawed, but there's no way out. You are expendable and insignificant. Eventually the crushing despair of poverty will become so intolerable that the nagging protests of the soul I'm auctioning off will just have to be drowned out with NPR and Ben Affleck movies.
 

CzeCze

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Hmm, if it helps, I have two INTP friends who are anti-establishment in their own ways.

One is a mostly self taught IT nerd who bought their own condo and has a respectable well-paying job but still donates such expertise to anti-establishment causes and groups. She can totally get away with her mad scientist wardrobe at work. IT and technology in general are great places to be INTP and 'anti-traditionalist'.

My other INTP friend was able to fund her art schooling with a lucrative job in sales. She also put her 'T' to use working for anti-establishment establishments like bars and nightclubs bookkeeping for them and was pretty involved in the local music scene. And she originally dropped out of a traditional 4 year college. She's not one to go with the herd at all. But she has recently found a calling and is working towards a new career.

There are lots of different gradations of being anti-establishment and many ways to avoid being a cog in the machine and yet still accomplish 'mainstream' things like owning property or getting married, etc.

And some say 'capitulation' some say 'growing up and having different needs', you say 'toMAYtoe' I say 'toeMAHtoe', the internal struggle to be at peace with your material decisions in life is a personal one. But, I don't necessarily think that shifting gears is the same as selling out. There are still a lot of layers of gray within that whole realm of 'normative success'.

And usually, you have to work WITHIN the system to really change it.
 

Athenian200

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Well, it doesn't really make sense to me. I would think that if NT's are "logical," then they would take whatever the most logical course of action was for a given situation. Even if they realized that the organization of the system wasn't logical, wouldn't they still realize that it was more effective to work within it when they don't have the resources to actually do anything against it, and that sitting outside of it accomplishing nothing and acting unusual is just... pointless?

And I mean, what's the point of just decrying the system? It's obviously there for a reason, and acting in the exact opposite direction isn't necessarily better, it's just trading one negative extreme for another. I'm not saying don't protest certain aspects, but you just have to "choose your battles," so to speak.

Basically, I don't understand the idea of not liking the system just because it's "the system." I kind of understand working against it when there's an actual problem with a particular aspect of it, though.
 

Magic Poriferan

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I've honesly never been a rebel.
I'm not a conformist by any means, but I'm not a rebel either.
I'm often stupefied at the rebelious behavior of people I know, in fact.

Maybe it's the type One in me. :yes:
 

Totenkindly

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Well, it doesn't really make sense to me. I would think that if NT's are "logical," then they would take whatever the most logical course of action was for a given situation. Even if they realized that the organization of the system wasn't logical, wouldn't they still realize that it was more effective to work within it when they don't have the resources to actually do anything against it, and that sitting outside of it accomplishing nothing and acting unusual is just... pointless?

You should stop assuming that NTs are not people.

We're rational. But we are still human. And we have feelings. So we act in ways that are not entirely rational sometimes.

For INTPs, our first response is usually withdrawal from the offending system. (And I think this is what you do as well. Perhaps it is an INxx thing... or just an Ixxx thing. Or something else, but you get the point.)

But the withdrawal can't be complete because (1) Ne shows us the potential of the system, what it COULD be at its most efficient/powerful, and (2) Ti shows us a better way, what the system SHOULD be rationally.

So on one hand we feel powerless to change anything because people are just set in their ways and the system (the current one, the "inefficient" one) has a life of its own. It is like a monster. And yet we're compelled to engage.

I think this is why it is important for INTPs to develop their extroverted functions. We need info from the outer world to be effective (Ne) and we need to be able to relate to people in constructive ways (Fe). Withdrawing usually leads to a Ti+Si combination which is destructive -- basically, griping about the system because it doesn't match what we think it should, without doing ANYTHING about it whatsoever.

Basically, I don't understand the idea of not liking the system just because it's "the system." I kind of understand working against it when there's an actual problem with a particular aspect of it, though.

You see bitching about "the system" more from ISTPs. INTPs tend to see things as more benign, not purposefully malignant. ISTPs tend to be more suspicious -- because they're engaging through Se (they more easily see the tangible effects, not the many possibilities of something), and the Ni thing suggests to them it's all about interpretation, so someone somewhere is spinning things to their advantage.
 

wildcat

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I just now realized, at the age of 24, that my desire to rebel against the system caused me to miss a lot of opportunity. Several opportunities for development were sabotaged. Is this a common realization for INTP's(or INTJ's?) approaching their middle 20's?
No.
 

proteanmix

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And usually, you have to work WITHIN the system to really change it.

This is so completely true. If people see you coming they prepare for you. In my experience people that actually manage to change the system are the ones who are already in it, know how to maneuver/manipulate it, and subvert it. Often it's the last person anyone would expect to do such a thing. And the system can be whatever atmosphere you find yourself in. At my last retail job before I made the plunge into my current penitentiary, they had to change their hiring policy because of some dirty deed they tried to do to me because I changed my work schedule. They weren't explicit and clear in their policy and each manager enforced it as they saw fit with no consistency.

I don't think rebelling means always going out with guns ablaze and leaving a bloody trail in your wake.
 

Athenian200

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You should stop assuming that NTs are not people.

We're rational. But we are still human. And we have feelings. So we act in ways that are not entirely rational sometimes.

Yes, of course I know that. But how do I get them to see that? They usually don't get that, or at least don't take it very well.

For INTPs, our first response is usually withdrawal from the offending system. (And I think this is what you do as well. Perhaps it is an INxx thing... or just an Ixxx thing. Or something else, but you get the point.)

I wouldn't go around withdrawing from systems altogether without a viable/acceptable alternative. I would endure any system rather than have no structure at all. Of course, just because I work within a particular system, and accept it's rules doesn't mean that I actually like it... I may well hate it if it's a bad system.

But the withdrawal can't be complete because (1) Ne shows us the potential of the system, what it COULD be at its most efficient/powerful, and (2) Ti shows us a better way, what the system SHOULD be rationally.

So on one hand we feel powerless to change anything because people are just set in their ways and the system (the current one, the "inefficient" one) has a life of its own. It is like a monster. And yet we're compelled to engage.

I guess this is really different. I don't reenvision the whole system... I just notice particular flaws in it that grate me, and I don't really see potential, as much as I see whether it's the best system available now, and whether it works/will work reasonably well for me and what I want/need out of it, despite having flaws/inefficiencies.

I think this is why it is important for INTPs to develop their extroverted functions. We need info from the outer world to be effective (Ne) and we need to be able to relate to people in constructive ways (Fe). Withdrawing usually leads to a Ti+Si combination which is destructive -- basically, griping about the system because it doesn't match what we think it should, without doing ANYTHING about it whatsoever.

Well, a person does need to develop both Introverted and Extraverted functions. But I think there's a danger in developing your inferior too early in life. I think you need to be reasonably stable in your other functions to develop it safely, and without neglecting your higher functions in favor of it.

You see bitching about "the system" more from ISTPs. INTPs tend to see things as more benign, not purposefully malignant. ISTPs tend to be more suspicious -- because they're engaging through Se (they more easily see the tangible effects, not the many possibilities of something), and the Ni thing suggests to them it's all about interpretation, so someone somewhere is spinning things to their advantage.

Actually, I'm kind of suspicious as well. Except I usually worry that everything /everyone is specifically working against me, and is out to get me. Sometimes I even worry I'm working against myself, and distrust myself as well. So it may not be that I trust the system more than they do, it may simply be that I have so little trust in everything (even my own perceptions), that I simply don't have any less trust in "the system" than in anything else.

It's really interesting to see the differences/similarities between INTP and other types.
 

Roger Mexico

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Well, it doesn't really make sense to me. I would think that if NT's are "logical," then they would take whatever the most logical course of action was for a given situation. Even if they realized that the organization of the system wasn't logical, wouldn't they still realize that it was more effective to work within it when they don't have the resources to actually do anything against it, and that sitting outside of it accomplishing nothing and acting unusual is just... pointless?

And I mean, what's the point of just decrying the system? It's obviously there for a reason, and acting in the exact opposite direction isn't necessarily better, it's just trading one negative extreme for another. I'm not saying don't protest certain aspects, but you just have to "choose your battles," so to speak.

Basically, I don't understand the idea of not liking the system just because it's "the system." I kind of understand working against it when there's an actual problem with a particular aspect of it, though.


Hmm, I think a lot of NTJ's see things this way. I don't think I know an INTJ who doesn't consider themself a Libertarian--y'know, let the market regulate itself within a minimal framework of basic laws. It's a J thing to go "that's how things are. Problem solved."

The INTP perspective is going to be very different--I think we tend to look at society as this hugely complicated system that begs to be studied and re-molded into a more logical version of itself. Not that that's going to happen any time soon, so discouragement sets in and our natural response is to withdraw to a safe distance to collect more information. It's not about resisting the system because it's "the system;" it's a combination of indifference to convention and authority with a desire for logical coherence that society can't provide. Ideas like "It's just how we do things," and "you're not in charge, so stop asking questions" are going to be resisted tooth and nail, although the conflict often stays internal. But since the conflict comes from the dominant Ti-Ne combination, (or Ti-Se for ISTP's, which is very similar) doing anything that requires you to ignore your predominant thinking functions is difficult and unpleasant.

Personally, the whole "work for money and live your life on the weekends" thing is just impossible. I sit there at work and go "why am I doing this? I could really give a fuck whether or not this yuppie bitch gets the right number of shots in her espresso. Why is a full third of the hours in my day, including sleep, devoted to something that doesn't interest me?" And the answer, of course, is "well, no one's going to pay you to analyze the implicit proto-fascist dynamics of American Evangelical political ideology," so basically my life is being stolen from me.

Not purchased, you understand. Purchased would be if I made enough money working retail, food service, or selling insurance to knock off after 5 years of it and pursue what I actually want to do with my life. The fact that I'm charged for the privilege of occupying space, which necessitates wage labor, means that I can't expect any real freedom until I'm too old to contribute to the whole bullshit mess anymore and they put me out to pasture, assuming, of course, I've been a good and faithful enough dog over the years to have socked away enough money to continue feeding myself, occupying space, and of course getting medical care for a body that will be decrepit by that point. So, basically once I've got the time to do what I want, I'll be too old to do much more than take a few trips and learn to play golf.

And it's all because society is structured to emphasize priorities that I don't share. It rewards people for spending their time, talent, and energy crafting elaborate setpieces to persuade others to drink one particular brand of lemon-lime soda. Or to come up with new ways to stitch fabric together so as to convince people to spend thousands of dollars on a fucking bag to carry their shit around in. Or to make Ben Affleck movies.

But you just want to observe things and try to understand them better? No money in that, freak. That'll be $1000 for the next thirty days of having somewhere to sleep. Best get your ass to Wal-Mart and fill out an application.
 

SolitaryWalker

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and the Ni thing suggests to them it's all about interpretation, so someone somewhere is spinning things to their advantage.

So, here the Ni is slave to Se.

Se does not understand how things work, and just pithces in to reaffirm the Ti's notion of being opressed.

Ni thinks of abstract ideas on how to frame the idea of the ISTP being opressed.

Yet with the INTP, the Ne is strong enough to see possibilities for its own right, and therefore liberate itself from the tyranny of Ti. Thus, Ne for the INTP does not cater to the notion of being opressed whilst Se for the ISTP does.
 

SolitaryWalker

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I just now realized, at the age of 24, that my desire to rebel against the system caused me to miss a lot of opportunity. Several opportunities for development were sabotaged. Is this a common realization for INTP's(or INTJ's?) approaching their middle 20's?

Keep things as they are, you wont find anything more important than protecting the integrity of your inner life. Just make sure you stay balanced though by cultivating your Ne. That way you will be able to find yourself enough opportunities to support your Ti inner goals. Ne will give you a good grasp over the external situation as well as be able to interact with it. This is the skill that our ENPs are most renowned for, you'd be able to do this well too, should you get a good grasp of that function. You'll easily be able to manuever around the system in a way that your integrity would not be compromised.

Those opportunities truly would be meaningless if you did not have an end to meet them with. For this reason it is always more important to take care of your Ti, before your Ne, or your inner needs before your outer.
 

Athenian200

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The INTP perspective is going to be very different--I think we tend to look at society as this hugely complicated system that begs to be studied and re-molded into a more logical version of itself. Not that that's going to happen any time soon, so discouragement sets in and our natural response is to withdraw to a safe distance to collect more information. It's not about resisting the system because it's "the system;" it's a combination of indifference to convention and authority with a desire for logical coherence that society can't provide. Ideas like "It's just how we do things," and "you're not in charge, so stop asking questions" are going to be resisted tooth and nail, although the conflict often stays internal. But since the conflict comes from the dominant Ti-Ne combination, (or Ti-Se for ISTP's, which is very similar) doing anything that requires you to ignore your predominant thinking functions is difficult and unpleasant.

I guess I just have a different orientation to it. I can definitely see a lot of problems in society, it's just that I approach everything from the perspective of "given what choices I have, what is best for me?" It isn't that I think society is right or fair, but that participating in it is best/easiest for me. Basically, even though I know that I'm probably contributing to something that isn't very good in principle, I ultimately seem to decide in favor of what's best for me (especially when I feel pressured), rather than what's best in general.
Personally, the whole "work for money and live your life on the weekends" thing is just impossible. I sit there at work and go "why am I doing this? I could really give a fuck whether or not this yuppie bitch gets the right number of shots in her espresso. Why is a full third of the hours in my day, including sleep, devoted to something that doesn't interest me?" And the answer, of course, is "well, no one's going to pay you to analyze the implicit proto-fascist dynamics of American Evangelical political ideology," so basically my life is being stolen from me.

I justify it with the Social Contract. You're giving up a part of your time/energy to society's machine in exchange for the advantages of participating in society. If people didn't have to put in a certain amount of work to survive/get money, society wouldn't work because no one would have any inclination to do anything but play. Does that make sense?
Not purchased, you understand. Purchased would be if I made enough money working retail, food service, or selling insurance to knock off after 5 years of it and pursue what I actually want to do with my life. The fact that I'm charged for the privilege of occupying space, which necessitates wage labor, means that I can't expect any real freedom until I'm too old to contribute to the whole bullshit mess anymore and they put me out to pasture, assuming, of course, I've been a good and faithful enough dog over the years to have socked away enough money to continue feeding myself, occupying space, and of course getting medical care for a body that will be decrepit by that point. So, basically once I've got the time to do what I want, I'll be too old to do much more than take a few trips and learn to play golf.

And it's all because society is structured to emphasize priorities that I don't share. It rewards people for spending their time, talent, and energy crafting elaborate setpieces to persuade others to drink one particular brand of lemon-lime soda. Or to come up with new ways to stitch fabric together so as to convince people to spend thousands of dollars on a fucking bag to carry their shit around in. Or to make Ben Affleck movies.

But you just want to observe things and try to understand them better? No money in that, freak. That'll be $1000 for the next thirty days of having somewhere to sleep. Best get your ass to Wal-Mart and fill out an application.

Pardon the question, but why are you working in dead-end jobs like that? You should be trying to come up with something that can make money. Write a computer program, invent something, write a book, etc. Why can't you at least get some kind of "white collar" job that offers more opportunities, stability, and probably even pays more than the "service" jobs you've been describing? Those are mostly for uneducated people with no potential.
 

Totenkindly

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Yet with the INTP, the Ne is strong enough to see possibilities for its own right, and therefore liberate itself from the tyranny of Ti. Thus, Ne for the INTP does not cater to the notion of being opressed whilst Se for the ISTP does.

So what is the flaw of Ne and what notions does it cater to?
 

Athenian200

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So what is the flaw of Ne and what notions does it cater to?

My guess would be that it tends to neglect matters such as personal health, comfort, and security, seeing them as only a few of several variables to be considered, and tends not to give them their due weight. What do you think?
 
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