• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[NT] INTJ and ENTJ

Risen

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
3,185
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
9w8
:) Funny because yes she acts very emotionally although she believes that she doesn't have a temper. In fact when I told her and she went all emo I told her she is being emotional.

Oh well - one would think ENTJs are like INTJ's = able to be objective and avoid unnecessary emotion.

Well, just looking at it from the cognitive functions perspective, Fi is father back in the order of functions for an INTJ (inferior) than it is for an ENTJ (tertiary). Thus, ENTJs are more apt to use Fi, while INTJs bring forth Se more often. Both respective tertiary functions are underdeveloped compared to the primary and secondary functions, and the weaker maturity of it is all the more apparent in observable behavior when it is in the form of judgment (Fi). That's my theory.

Now she says she doesn't care but fact she reacts to him the way she does is emotional.

In my experience, this sort of cognitive dissonance is rather typical. And it can be quite annoying. INTJs seem to be very forthright in how they feel and perceive people/situations. ENTJs seem to conceal that information more, perhaps out of concern for how others would perceive them. They may have a problem with something, but they wont tell you, for whatever reasons they're thinking of in their heads.
 

jenocyde

half mystic, half skeksis
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
Messages
6,387
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w8
I agree that many ENTJs are more excitable than their introverted counterparts, as is usually the case. But every single person has emotions whether they admit it, recognize it or not. Instead of being bewildered that a person felt something, just try and either fix the problem or let it go.

If you no longer want her friendship, then problem solved. If you truly miss her, you can tell her point blank that you don't believe her when she says she's not angry, tell her that you won't make the same mistake twice since you value her and assert that if she takes a step toward understanding your point of view, you are willing to compromise your "logic" and consider her "emotions" in the future. If that doesn't work, then just cut your losses.

ENTJ women are very quick with the axe, but I don't believe she has axed you yet.
 

Kambro

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
205
MBTI Type
INTX
Enneagram
5w6?
I agree that many ENTJs are more excitable than their introverted counterparts, as is usually the case. But every single person has emotions whether they admit it, recognize it or not. Instead of being bewildered that a person felt something, just try and either fix the problem or let it go.

If you no longer want her friendship, then problem solved. If you truly miss her, you can tell her point blank that you don't believe her when she says she's not angry, tell her that you won't make the same mistake twice since you value her and assert that if she takes a step toward understanding your point of view, you are willing to compromise your "logic" and consider her "emotions" in the future. If that doesn't work, then just cut your losses.

ENTJ women are very quick with the axe, but I don't believe she has axed you yet.

Thanks a lot - miss her ability to make feel "animated" if that's the right word. But think I'll let things simmer until a few weeks or so passes :).

Only thing I don't understand is that I thought ENTJ's are also very logical?
 

Kambro

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
205
MBTI Type
INTX
Enneagram
5w6?
In my experience, this sort of cognitive dissonance is rather typical. And it can be quite annoying. INTJs seem to be very forthright in how they feel and perceive people/situations. ENTJs seem to conceal that information more, perhaps out of concern for how others would perceive them. They may have a problem with something, but they wont tell you, for whatever reasons they're thinking of in their heads.

Why do they hide it as I thought they forthright? How do you get it out of them? I thought they are straight talkers?
 

jenocyde

half mystic, half skeksis
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
Messages
6,387
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w8
Thanks a lot - miss her ability to make feel "animated" if that's the right word. But think I'll let things simmer until a few weeks or so passes :).

Only thing I don't understand is that I thought ENTJ's are also very logical?

Of course they are logical (as are most people, to varying degrees)! Does that mean that a person is unable to have feelings? Don't you ever get frustrated? - Frustration is an emotion, you know. This feeling you have of enjoying her company, missing the way she makes you feel - how is that superior to her feelings of betrayal? You both have feelings right now. It would be just as logical to stop speaking to someone who doesn't want to speak to you - but you have this feeling of regret, right? So does this mean that you are not logical? My point is that just because an emotion is negative doesn't mean that it's illogical.

I agree that NT women are less apt to feel strong emotions as often as other women. But that's exactly why you should handle this now. If this situation drove her to this level, she is really feeling it much more than you know. If you want to end it, then try to stop her from going through this and just make it better right now.

As far as waiting a few weeks... I know that it is a very introverted perspective, but for most extroverts, those few weeks will see me forgetting about you completely. I couldn't imagine either me, or my sister, going back to something after having been separated from it for too long. It's usually all about moving forward, quickly. And if we do revisit, it's never with the same vigor and excitement that it once was. Just saying.
 

jenocyde

half mystic, half skeksis
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
Messages
6,387
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w8
Why do they hide it as I thought they forthright? How do you get it out of them? I thought they are straight talkers?

Usually it's because they don't want to be perceived as weak. I have a little bit of that in me, too. It's pretty much humiliating for me to admit that I have a problem that I can't solve on my own. I have been letting go of that slowly over time, but my sister is still in the thick of it. Maybe it's an extrovert thing?

Also, there is an element of not letting all your cards on the table. If I don't like someone, I would watch and wait and plan my strategy, rather than gossip - which would give my entire strategy away. I tend to see most "forthrightness" just to be plain gossip.
 

Risen

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
3,185
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
9w8
Why do they hide it as I thought they forthright? How do you get it out of them? I thought they are straight talkers?

They don't always talk straight, in my experience. I'm sure it depends on the person though, not a generalization I'd be so ready to make about the type. And you can't bring it out of them unless they trust you, and want to share whatever info they're withholding. They do like to control the info that they present to others about themselves. Sometimes it may appear that there is such a grave discontinuity between their thoughts, feelings, and actions that it leaves one in bewilderment, But I have to assume they believe such behavior is beneficial as either a conscious process or an automatic one.
 

Kambro

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
205
MBTI Type
INTX
Enneagram
5w6?
Usually it's because they don't want to be perceived as weak. ... I tend to see most "forthrightness" just to be plain gossip.

Yet ENTJ's pride themselves on their straight talking, saying it as it is? Not being seen as weak makes sense becuase that was her first response.


Of course they are logical (as are most people, to varying degrees)! ...

I agree that NT women are less apt to feel strong emotions as often as other women. But that's exactly why you should handle this now. If this situation drove her to this level, she is really feeling it much more than you know. If you want to end it, then try to stop her from going through this and just make it better right now.

As far as waiting a few weeks... I know that it is a very introverted perspective, but for most extroverts, those few weeks will see me forgetting about you completely. .... Just saying.

Thanks your advice makes sense. However, the best i cabn do is to say sorry as i see now that unwittingly I caused her stress. Probably selfish on my part in the sense that for me it was another commonality between us. My father also had two kids from a 2nd wife.

As for repairing relationship - I will apologise for anguish caused but I think its best I move on as i simply caused her further anguish in my last chat with her since she saw me probably as defending this guy.

So I'll drop her a mail safer I think ;-). She might think its cowardly way to apologise but talking wil simply risk further misunderstanding.

Thanks for sharing your perspective. It helped me see things from her side and I must be honest, didn't think she would be so emotionally affected.

Ah well, live and learn. time sadly then to move on.
 

tcda

psicobolche
Joined
Nov 17, 2009
Messages
1,292
MBTI Type
intp
Enneagram
5
^^^it's because they have a plan. INTP's can learn to do that too, it's quite a good idea. hard to get what you want without one...

oops that was at the Risen quote above the last one.
 

Kambro

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
205
MBTI Type
INTX
Enneagram
5w6?
^^^it's because they have a plan. INTP's can learn to do that too, it's quite a good idea. hard to get what you want without one...

oops that was at the Risen quote above the last one.


Huh? Not making connect - its late here, had a bad week and tired so slow. LOL
 

tcda

psicobolche
Joined
Nov 17, 2009
Messages
1,292
MBTI Type
intp
Enneagram
5
Huh? Not making connect - its late here, had a bad week and tired so slow. LOL

yeh it wasn't directed at your post, but the one above :)

FWIW though I don't think you should "end it", that sounds like self-sabotage. Fromw hat I understand she's not ignoring you, and you don't want to cut it off with her, so why would you do that? If she's getting distressed but still coming back for more then surely that's a good sign if anything, shows you get under her skin.

what's the dynamic like is it mutual or are you chasing her around for conversation?
 

Risen

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
3,185
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
9w8
^^^it's because they have a plan. INTP's can learn to do that too, it's quite a good idea. hard to get what you want without one...

oops that was at the Risen quote above the last one.

Well I figured as much, but I fail to see the value in such "social planning" when it comes to relationships and friendly interactions, unless the ENTJ is just constantly thinking about how to gain from the person they are interacting with (like gaining friendship or acceptance, through their manipulation of information and planning). It just seems excessive and unnecessary, especially when when you're dealing with a perceptive INT who can always see through that (but not straight through to the intentions behind it). I get put off by such behavior because I'm usually well aware of it, it seems disingenuous, and for an intuitive perceiver the incoherence is almost impossible to ignore. Plus, as an INTP, I tend to mirror back behavior, and if I'm mirroring that sort of behavior pattern I imagine communication starts to break down quickly. Perhaps other types just don't react or perceive it the same way, so the ENTJs usually have no problem with that way of interacting with people.

And certainly one can say that all forms of social interaction are rather manipulative, but unconscious for most people. Most people just act automatically, not really thinking about how their words and actions change people, their perceptions, and behavior. These calculations are always made at a subconscious level and come through in our own behavior. I suppose the more conscious awareness you have of how you can shape the situation and people, the more it is considered "manipulation" by the standard definition.

*End babbling*
 

tcda

psicobolche
Joined
Nov 17, 2009
Messages
1,292
MBTI Type
intp
Enneagram
5
Well I figured as much, but I fail to see the value in such "social planning" when it comes to relationships and friendly interactions, unless the ENTJ is just constantly thinking about how to gain from the person they are interacting with (like gaining friendship or acceptance, through their manipulation of information and planning). It just seems excessive and unnecessary, especially when when you're dealing with a perceptive INT who can always see through that (but not straight through to the intentions behind it). I get put off by such behavior because I'm usually well aware of it, it seems disingenuous, and for an intuitive perceiver the incoherence is almost impossible to ignore. Plus, as an INTP, I tend to mirror back behavior, and if I'm mirroring that sort of behavior pattern I imagine communication starts to break down quickly. Perhaps other types just don't react or perceive it the same way, so the ENTJs usually have no problem with that way of interacting with people.

And certainly one can say that all forms of social interaction are rather manipulative, but unconscious for most people. Most people just act automatically, not really thinking about how their words and actions change people, their perceptions, and behavior. These calculations are always made at a subconscious level and come through in our own behavior. I suppose the more conscious awareness you have of how you can shape the situation and people, the more it is considered "manipulation" by the standard definition.

*End babbling*

Hmm fair point. I shouldn't try to make rules for what all people need to do, I'm not exactly "mr.relationship" :D

my experience though is that there's a rational reason for behaving the way they do and it's something intp's can be quite good at if we are to choose to...it just takes us time to learn what comes naturally to some others, but when we do we can take the game to a much higher level than most types have the stomach for.

INTJ's I think have the Fi which means that in personal relationships they are naive and vulnerable...I know it's the cliche and what the descritpions say, but it's my own personal expereince too and AdielK, who sounds like a good guy, is providing another example. i.e. he's proposing to walk away from a relationship with someone he likes, and who obviously likes him, precisely because of the fact that he's brought out her feelings and he doesn't want to cause any more distress!:shock:
 

Kambro

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
205
MBTI Type
INTX
Enneagram
5w6?
yeh it wasn't directed at your post, but the one above :)

FWIW though I don't think you should "end it", that sounds like self-sabotage. From what I understand she's not ignoring you, and you don't want to cut it off with her, so why would you do that? If she's getting distressed but still coming back for more then surely that's a good sign if anything, shows you get under her skin.

what's the dynamic like is it mutual or are you chasing her around for conversation?

Look we both enjoy the interaction. I don't think its that we really "into each other" for a relationship. I will admit it crosses my mind but its more the fact that for the first time I met a RL person who is passionate about MBTI like me and can follow my conversations which tend to be fast and all over the place. Normally I get pissed off if someone can't follow me or redirects my conversation - with her we change each other's train of thought but it all still makes sense and we enjoy it.

So - yes I'll miss it but I am in a long term relationship already where there is actually something mutual on the table. My RL commitment is well aware of this friendship and is uncomfortable about it. Maybe that's why end is a blessing in disguise :p.

But yes I suppose there's going to be an element of what if? But life is too short for stressing too much. In fact reason I even called her this week was because my son had a near drowning and I thought - shit its bad - I upset her and she may think my "ignoring her" meant my opinion of her had changed becuase that's the question she asked when she called me afterwards to "report back". Why in heaven's name I don't know because she owed me no explanation. I always intended to clarify this. When I asked if she's worried about my opinion she voiced view that she decided other people's views are irrelevant. Hmm - wonder why she still gets so emotional about issue.


As I said I owe her an apology clearly because I hurt her unintentionally (in my defence) but I don't think I was in the wrong and she should apologise to me quite frankly for not appreciating my action in making her aware of asshole gossiping about her.

In any case will drop mail first thing in the morning once I have figured out what to write.
 

Risen

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
3,185
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
9w8
Hmm fair point. I shouldn't try to make rules for what all people need to do, I'm not exactly "mr.relationship" :D

my experience though is that there's a rational reason for behaving the way they do and it's something intp's can be quite good at if we are to choose to...it just takes us time to learn what comes naturally to some others, but when we do we can take the game to a much higher level than most types have the stomach for.

I just prefer not to use those abilities for such extraneous situations. Only when necessary, preferably not for people I'm supposed to be friends with. I don't want to manipulate people I care for, it's like a bastardization of everything those sorts of relationships are supposed to represent: genuine mutual caring, acceptance, and enjoyment of eachother (to a degree), not contrived and constructed upon false images. I'd rather reserve that power for other interactions, such as in business. If I'm aware of anyone going too far to willfully try to manipulate my thoughts, feelings, or actions as a normal form of interaction (and not just on rare occasions for harmless goals)... it doesn't work. ENTJ = master manipulator, INTP = hidden camera in the room that reveals the truth

INTJ's I think have the Fi which means that in personal relationships they are naive and vulnerable...I know it's the cliche and what the descritpions say, but it's my own personal expereince too and AdielK, who sounds like a good guy, is providing another example. i.e. he's proposing to walk away from a relationship with someone he likes, and who obviously likes him, precisely because of the fact that he's brought out her feelings and he doesn't want to cause any more distress!:shock:

Both NTjs have Fi. Like I said earlier, I think ENTJs bring forth and use Fi much more often than INTJs because ENTJs have Fi as tertiary, and INTJs have it as the inferior function. This means that for both types, Fi is an immature cognitive tool. However, it means that ENTJs have a better handle on Fi than INTJs simply because they use it more than the latter type. Thus, if an INTJ for some reason brings forth their inferior Fi to deal with a situation, it'll be even worse than for an ENTJ, in all likelihood.
 

Kambro

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
205
MBTI Type
INTX
Enneagram
5w6?
... Both NTjs have Fi. Like I said earlier, I think ENTJs bring forth and use Fi much more often than INTJs because ENTJs have Fi as tertiary, and INTJs have it as the inferior function. This means that for both types, Fi is an immature cognitive tool. However, it means that ENTJs have a better handle on Fi than INTJs simply because they use it more than the latter type. Thus, if an INTJ for some reason brings forth their inferior Fi to deal with a situation, it'll be even worse than for an ENTJ, in all likelihood.


In Plain English :) Are u saying if I deal with situation ito Feeling then I will be at a disadvantage?
 

Kambro

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
205
MBTI Type
INTX
Enneagram
5w6?
Yea, pretty much ;) .

:) the logic approach didn't seem to work. Am still totally bemused by her reactions :)

So if I may ask what is your advice on apologising via e-mail and then just leaving it unless she approaches me.

it seems to me that if I simply ignore her there will definitely be an end. If I call her I risk another misunderstanding of logic vs emotion.

So mal and then leaving issue in her court. But of course will be perceived as cowardice. Ah well there's never an easy solution.

On her FB she did not respond to my comment "Cats have 9 lives or so they say" on her original posting that "curiosity killed the cat". Seems to me the axe swinged already :)

I only owe her an apology because, I must be honest I never figured she would actually suffer emotionally - feel a bit bad about it. But not to apologise I guess would be cold of me?
 
Last edited:

tcda

psicobolche
Joined
Nov 17, 2009
Messages
1,292
MBTI Type
intp
Enneagram
5
if she's still taking time on conversations with you I wouldn't say the axe has swung.

Since I got axed by an ENTJ woman all I got was a very cold but polite hello's and goodbye's - and only when unavoidable - which she does just to not feel awkward, with no window offered to respond to anything, and maximum effort to ignore me as much as possible.
 

Kambro

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
205
MBTI Type
INTX
Enneagram
5w6?
if she's still taking time on conversations with you I wouldn't say the axe has swung.

Since I got axed by an ENTJ woman all I got was a very cold but polite hello's and goodbye's - and only when unavoidable - which she does just to not feel awkward, with no window offered to respond to anything, and maximum effort to ignore me as much as possible.

OK - LOL, I'll see if she responds to apology. Verbally or via e-mail. Prefer e-mail as less risk of misunderstandings but she may see it as weak. To be honest I was pissed off that she told me she wished I had not told her via an e-mail. Felt she was actually impugning on my integrity and character.

Decision - e-mail it is but feel free to advise :)
 
Top