[ENTP] Ask an ENTP!

[onemoretime]

Don't worry, A, I'll still play along. That other thread was getting stuffy, anyway!

You guys actually like it when someone keeps you at a distance? Watches you with hawk eyes (but still engages you, though with a ten foot pole at the very least)

No. I used to do this when I was perpetually suspicious of others' intentions. Much of this came from an emotional disconnect, along with the inability to recognize trust not only as an abstract concept, but an emotion itself.

..and is this preferable at first, before you get to know the person?

I prefer to be somewhat detached while trying to understand a person's intentions. Someone trying to be your best friend right away is a big red flag for me.

And for that matter, do you even enjoy that someone looks at you with a certain amount of...distrust at first?

I don't like it, but I expect it, especially living in this country.

Lastly, is this how you yourself deal with new people you meet?

My intention as of late has been to give people the benefit of the doubt until they do something that makes me uncomfortable somehow. Trying to analyze everyone's angle and motivation is one thing, but it's ultimately counterproductive. If I'm uncomfortable, it's a sign that my unconscious mind is picking up on something, and that is worth investigating.

What is with enjoying the animosity that goes on and is that what your bantering is based on and what you relish?

I wouldn't say the animosity is enjoyable, as much as it is comfortable. It is something I'm familiar with, and have plenty of experience engaging in, for better and for worse. On the other hand, explaining my feelings and accepting criticism have been uncomfortable for me, largely as a result of family environment.

The pleasure in banter largely stems from being able to look at a given conversation from a completely different angle. You take something that a person has given you, shift it just slightly, and return it to them so they can appreciate it in a way they may not have realized before. When done gently, this can be a wonderful way of sharing with the other person. On the other hand, it can become destructive sarcasm very easily.

 

[Amargith]

Don't worry, A, I'll still play along. That other thread was getting stuffy, anyway

I appreciate that a lot, actually. Ironically, it was my little banter session with [MENTION=6723]phobik[/MENTION] about tossing him over the cliff in the NT cliff thread that spawned this thread

No. I used to do this when I was perpetually suspicious of others' intentions. Much of this came from an emotional disconnect, along with the inability to recognize trust not only as an abstract concept, but an emotion itself.

Interesting. I wonder if that is something that other ENTPs relate to.
I prefer to be somewhat detached while trying to understand a person's intentions. Someone trying to be your best friend right away is a big red flag for me.

I don't like it, but I expect it, especially living in this country.

The reason I asked this is because ENTPs, and to certain extend, NTs, seem more comfortable with jabbing each other, than they are with..well, bonding and sweet gestures. They seem to enjoy the aloofness, and play with the other person. Somethign I recognize, coz I do that same Ne-dance with others, but it seems to consist of different moves than mine

For instance, just now in the other thread, I said Id toss ENTPs off the cliff. [MENTION=6723]phobik[/MENTION] decided to pick up on that and play with it. And well..he seemed to ehm, appreciate it more when I didn't show him mercy, so he could use his full Fe-guilttripping bag on me.
It was kinda fun..I do know phobes a bit, so I was able to play along, but it seems weird to me, that he would enjoy it more that I would actually play along as a callous bitch, instead of..hugging it out, as such

it almost felt like a kind of bonding...though I aint sure how far one can take this

My intention as of late has been to give people the benefit of the doubt until they do something that makes me uncomfortable somehow. Trying to analyze everyone's angle and motivation is one thing, but it's ultimately counterproductive. If I'm uncomfortable, it's a sign that my unconscious mind is picking up on something, and that is worth investigating.

Nice to see that. So before you would automatically wonder if they were up to no good?

I wouldn't say the animosity is enjoyable, as much as it is comfortable. It is something I'm familiar with, and have plenty of experience engaging in, for better and for worse. On the other hand, explaining my feelings and accepting criticism have been uncomfortable for me, largely as a result of family environment.

The pleasure in banter largely stems from being able to look at a given conversation from a completely different angle. You take something that a person has given you, shift it just slightly, and return it to them so they can appreciate it in a way they may not have realized before. When done gently, this can be a wonderful way of sharing with the other person. On the other hand, it can become destructive sarcasm very easily.

So it isnt as much that the jabbing is more fun..its that ehm, you are more experienced and more comfortable with it? The switching angle thing I get, as I do that myself and I do love the irony it produces. So the combination leads to...intellectual games? So when, how and why does it become destructive sarcasm, and how do you slip there easily?

 

[Nocapszy]

Well that was productive.

yeah... poor ama.
she kinda just got torn apart. all three, right in a row.
sorry, doll.

 

[Amargith]

yeah... poor ama.
she kinda just got torn apart. all three, right in a row.
sorry, doll.

...see, anyone but you would get a shoe thrown at their head for that one *lol*

 

[1487610420]

Clarification is overdue

I appreciate that a lot, actually. Ironically, it was my little banter session with [MENTION=6723]phobik[/MENTION] about tossing him over the cliff in the NT cliff thread that spawned this thread

For instance, just now in the other thread, I said Id toss ENTPs off the cliff. [MENTION=6723]phobik[/MENTION] decided to pick up on that and play with it. And well..he seemed to ehm, appreciate it more when I didn't show him mercy, so he could use his full Fe-guilttripping bag on me.
It was kinda fun..I do know phobes a bit, so I was able to play along, but it seems weird to me, that he would enjoy it more that I would actually play along as a callous bitch, instead of..hugging it out, as such

it almost felt like a kind of bonding...though I aint sure how far one can take this

Okay, it seems I have to clean up this mess, since apparently I helped creating it.

@bold: Where is any evidence to support this other than inside your head, by the way in which you choose to attribute meaning to the data that you're perceiving?

To clarify on what was going on from my perspective: after I picked up to play with, like you said, you choose to go in a the specific direction that you then assume as being my/ENTP's preference. Do you see what you did there? Can you say http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias?

So, you're the one who actually choose the direction of the play, and sure it was fun banter & watnot, no harm done - except for the misunderstanding going inside your head

What Fe really did was accommodate your choice of play, for the grater good, as, like pointed above it was all in good fun and harmless, not because it was some masochistic preference.

Hopefully this will help clarifying, this and perhaps other interactions you or anyone can relate to.

 

[Amargith]

...I made this thread because I did want to confirm the suspicion I had. I did state 'it seemed', didnt I? Great, so I got it wrong. Perhaps you would like to part take in this thread and help me figure it out? If not..I ll understand. Dont worry about cleaning up the mess that is this thread. Ill take care of it

Oh and you jumped to conclusions with regards to the misunderstanding in my head. So, you have a similar situation in your head going on. I made the thread to confirm...not coz I was convinced I was right

 

[1487610420]

...I made this thread because I did want to confirm the suspicion I had. I did state 'it seemed', didnt I? Great, so I got it wrong. Perhaps you would like to part take in this thread and help me figure it out? If not..I ll understand. Dont worry about cleaning up the mess that is this thread. Ill take care of it

Oh and you jumped to conclusions with regards to the misunderstanding in my head. So, you have a similar situation in your head going on. I made the thread to confirm...not coz I was convinced I was right

is there more?

 

[Amargith]

is there more?

Nope. Feel free to leave.

 

[1487610420]

Nope. Feel free to leave.

Used, abused and discarded. I see how it is.

 

[Amargith]

Used and abused. I see how it is.

More Fe guilttripping and bantering *confused*

...[MENTION=7330]onemoretime[/MENTION] : translation plz?

 

[onemoretime]

I appreciate that a lot, actually. Ironically, it was my little banter session with [MENTION=6723]phobik[/MENTION] about tossing him over the cliff in the NT cliff thread that spawned this thread

No problem. You went to all the trouble of making the thread, no reason not to help you out!

The reason I asked this is because ENTPs, and to certain extend, NTs, seem more comfortable with jabbing each other, than they are with..well, bonding and sweet gestures. They seem to enjoy the aloofness, and play with the other person. Somethign I recognize, coz I do that same Ne-dance with others, but it seems to consist of different moves than mine

Well, I can say that I'm not exactly fond of the aloofness, but may nevertheless try to take what I can from it when I feel disconnected from whatever it is that is going on around me. Sometimes, this can be as a result of social anxiety, while other times, I'm simply distracted by something else, and it's taking a lot of energy to shift gears. The aloofness also protects against vulnerability, while bonding and sweet gestures demand that vulnerability. If I'm not comfortable with opening up (for all sorts of justified and unjustified reasons), the aloof jabbing is a "safe space," so to speak.

For instance, just now in the other thread, I said Id toss ENTPs off the cliff. [MENTION=6723]phobik[/MENTION] decided to pick up on that and play with it. And well..he seemed to ehm, appreciate it more when I didn't show him mercy, so he could use his full Fe-guilttripping bag on me.
It was kinda fun..I do know phobes a bit, so I was able to play along, but it seems weird to me, that he would enjoy it more that I would actually play along as a callous bitch, instead of..hugging it out, as such

Ah. Yes, this sort of thing is fun. I've come to realize, though, that it can be incredibly frustrating for the other person, because the game is how to arrange things where the other person has all the power, but you respond in such a way that he or she still cannot win. It's necessarily a win-lose scenario, unless the other person is using it to exercise their creative juices. Hugging it out shows vulnerability, once again, and can feel fake and pointless unless you're willing to let the other person in.

it almost felt like a kind of bonding...though I aint sure how far one can take this

It is. It's the "partner in crime" vibe that I find so alluring.

Nice to see that. So before you would automatically wonder if they were up to no good?

Yes, or simply assume that they had some ulterior motive that would put me at a disadvantage, or knew something I did not. That was a big part of it - the belief that knowing more than the other person put me at an advantage to that person, which made me stronger, and made me safe as a result. However, the only way I'd feel completely secure is if I had perfect knowledge, which of course is impossible. The brain is very good, on the other hand, at convincing me that I know more in one of these situations of insecurity than I actually do. So the challenge now is both to know something, and to know when I do not know something.

So it isnt as much that the jabbing is more fun..its that ehm, you are more experienced and more comfortable with it? The switching angle thing I get, as I do that myself and I do love the irony it produces. So the combination leads to...intellectual games? So when, how and why does it become destructive sarcasm, and how do you slip there easily?

While my childhood wasn't as rough as that of a lot of other people, it was not in the most loving, nurturing environment, either. Verbally sparring with my parents was a means of keeping control and exerting power where I had none. If my parents were chewing me out because they were mad in response to something I did or said, even though I'd be punished for it (because I was punished for pissing the folks off, not for doing anything wrong per se), they'd still have to realize that I was right when I pointed out an inconsistency in their argument, or inequity in treatment compared to my siblings. Of course, this didn't exactly work; I didn't understand yet how easy it is for people to disregard otherwise blatant reality.

So, this sort of engagement became "normal" for me, because analyzing and deconstructing others' comments and arguments was a way I could keep on asserting my self-worth while I was otherwise feeling very anxious. Just like any other game, it was a means of honing a survival skill.

Slipping into sarcasm is easy because in the heat of the moment, it can be difficult to pull punches, or judge how another person is going to respond to a comment I thought was otherwise innocuous. Of course, when disconnected from my emotions, I am also disconnected from a full understanding of my unconscious intent in a particular circumstance. One ugly habit I picked up from my mom was to browbeat and interrogate another person for a questionable decision when I was angry with them, but justify it both to the person and to myself by saying that I was simply trying to help. Of course I'm not trying to help, I'm trying to punish the person for making me angry.

One big lesson I have been learning is that no one else is responsible for my emotions, even if they may be the cause of that emotional response.

 

[1487610420]

More Fe guilttripping and bantering *confused*

...[MENTION=7330]onemoretime[/MENTION] : translation plz?

A pattern emerges. What happened to your NeFi insight?
It seems to be Fi's (dis)ability to let go reading in between the line that's fueling it.

In summary, there isn't anything in between the banter lines.

EDIT: oh, and it should go without saying this:

.I do know phobes a bit, so I was able to play along

is mutual and the key to why the exchange can take place to begin with.

 

[Amargith]

Thanks so much for this. Im still mulling it over as it is a goldmine

No problem. You went to all the trouble of making the thread, no reason not to help you out!



Well, I can say that I'm not exactly fond of the aloofness, but may nevertheless try to take what I can from it when I feel disconnected from whatever it is that is going on around me. Sometimes, this can be as a result of social anxiety, while other times, I'm simply distracted by something else, and it's taking a lot of energy to shift gears. The aloofness also protects against vulnerability, while bonding and sweet gestures demand that vulnerability. If I'm not comfortable with opening up (for all sorts of justified and unjustified reasons), the aloof jabbing is a "safe space," so to speak.

So its a type of armour, while getting to know the person.


And the jabbing is a form of fencing powerplay game, it would appear.

It is. It's the "partner in crime" vibe that I find so alluring.

How does one go from opponent to partner in crime? After a couple of fencing matches?

Yes, or simply assume that they had some ulterior motive that would put me at a disadvantage, or knew something I did not. That was a big part of it - the belief that knowing more than the other person put me at an advantage to that person, which made me stronger, and made me safe as a result. However, the only way I'd feel completely secure is if I had perfect knowledge, which of course is impossible. The brain is very good, on the other hand, at convincing me that I know more in one of these situations of insecurity than I actually do. So the challenge now is both to know something, and to know when I do not know something.

That must be an exhausting mode to live in.

While my childhood wasn't as rough as that of a lot of other people, it was not in the most loving, nurturing environment, either. Verbally sparring with my parents was a means of keeping control and exerting power where I had none. If my parents were chewing me out because they were mad in response to something I did or said, even though I'd be punished for it (because I was punished for pissing the folks off, not for doing anything wrong per se), they'd still have to realize that I was right when I pointed out an inconsistency in their argument, or inequity in treatment compared to my siblings. Of course, this didn't exactly work; I didn't understand yet how easy it is for people to disregard otherwise blatant reality.

So, this sort of engagement became "normal" for me, because analyzing and deconstructing others' comments and arguments was a way I could keep on asserting my self-worth while I was otherwise feeling very anxious. Just like any other game, it was a means of honing a survival skill.

Slipping into sarcasm is easy because in the heat of the moment, it can be difficult to pull punches, or judge how another person is going to respond to a comment I thought was otherwise innocuous. Of course, when disconnected from my emotions, I am also disconnected from a full understanding of my unconscious intent in a particular circumstance. One ugly habit I picked up from my mom was to browbeat and interrogate another person for a questionable decision when I was angry with them, but justify it both to the person and to myself by saying that I was simply trying to help. Of course I'm not trying to help, I'm trying to punish the person for making me angry.

One big lesson I have been learning is that no one else is responsible for my emotions, even if they may be the cause of that emotional response.

Sounds very..survival-oriented. Struggle for power. And cold. I can see why you would need to protect your identity in that situation that way.

Is there a way to get an ENTP to understand that he isnt helping but in fact being..cruel and making him stop? Or is it better to just weather the storm and talk to them later?

 

[MacGuffin]

Looks like ENTP is still going off the cliff!

 

[digesthisickness]

I like to make "zoooom" sounds when I do it.

 

[1487610420]

Is there a way to get an ENTP to understand that he isnt helping but in fact being..cruel and making him stop? Or is it better to just weather the storm and talk to them later?

Just being as forthcoming and clear as you just did should suffice to alert Fe. Younger/immature ppl might be more reluctant to cave in due to pride. If it proves to be the case, just cut your losses and look after yourself, eventually they may come around, or learn from it.

 

[Amargith]

A pattern emerges. What happened to your NeFi insight?
It seems to be Fi's (dis)ability to let go reading in between the line that's fueling it.

In summary, there isn't anything in between the banter lines.

EDIT: oh, and it should go without saying this:

is mutual and the key to why the exchange can take place to begin with.

Phobes. I have suspended my NeFi 'insight'. ive always been the first to admit that entps baffle me. I have been nothing but openminded, curious and humble in this thread. What more do you want from me?

What i did was describe the way I perceived your response and instead of interpreting it, asking for the goddamn translation so I wouldnt jump to conclusions.

As much as I enjoyed our little banter session, it still mystified me and I wanted to find out what caused it to happen, instead of backfire....much like my conversations with you in this thread are.Id like it to be not a fluke but actually an experience I can learn from. So please. Give me some space to figure this out. I dont do well with the tough love approach you are using atm

 

[Amargith]

Looks like ENTP is still going off the cliff!

For now

Just being as forthcoming and clear as you just did should suffice to alert Fe. Younger/immature ppl might be more reluctant to cave in due to pride. If it proves to be the case, just cut your losses and look after yourself, eventually they may come around, or learn from it.

This otoh is very helpful, thank you

Can you specify which part exactly you meant with 'as you just did' ?

 

[digesthisickness]

This is like watching a horror movie. "Get out of the house! WHY ARE YOU GOING BACK UPSTAIRS? The front door is RIGHT THERE!"

 

[1487610420]

For now



This otoh is very helpful, thank you

Can you specify which part exactly you meant with 'as you just did' ?

Like you did in the line I quoted, after adapting the grammar ofc.