[NT] INTJ vs INTP: A Guide

[RaptorWizard]

This thread is full of player haters; you gotta respect each team member and our various unique gifts if you wish to accomplish stuff!

I frankly don't know shit about functions, at least on a universal level, but based upon my reading of this thread, I believe to have observed the following points:

1. INTPs determine the value of things by how they match their own internal constructions - INTJs develop various models that can change with context.
2. INTPs follow the guidance of definitions and how they connect to other categories - INTJs warp the world around and alter the foundations behind its architecture.
3. INTPs look for consistency between a static blueprint and its design - INTJs conceive contingent tranformations in evolutionary processes.

On the whole, with INTPs there seems to be a focus on sound systems of logic, and INTJs on all the changes creation can take.

Well folks, me being dead wrong or at least not completely right about parts in my above 'explanation' is a very real possibility, and as such, please feel free to point out anything I got wrong.

 

[Mal12345]

This thread is full of player haters; you gotta respect each team member and our various unique gifts if you wish to accomplish stuff!

I frankly don't know shit about functions, at least on a universal level, but based upon my reading of this thread, I believe to have observed the following points:

1. INTPs determine the value of things by how they match their own internal constructions - INTJs develop various models that can change with context.
2. INTPs follow the guidance of definitions and how they connect to other categories - INTJs warp the world around and alter the foundations behind its architecture.
3. INTPs look for consistency between a static blueprint and its design - INTJs conceive contingent tranformations in evolutionary processes.

On the whole, with INTPs there seems to be a focus on sound systems of logic, and INTJs on all the changes creation can take.

Well folks, me being dead wrong or at least not completely right about parts in my above 'explanation' is a very real possibility, and as such, please feel free to point out anything I got wrong.

I haven't read this thread until now, but those sound like cognitive styles. An excellent list of cognitive styles is found in a book called "The Art Of Thinking" [Harrison & Bramson, Berkley Trade; Reprint edition (February 5, 2002)].

A brief synopsis of these styles of thinking is given at Amazon.com:
The Synthesist: Sees likeness in apparent opposites, interested in change
The Idealist: Welcomes broad range of views, seeks ideal solutions
The Pragmatist: Seeks shortest route to payoff: “Whatever works”
The Analyst: Seeks “one best way,” interested in scientific solutions
The Realist: Relies on facts and expert opinions, interested in concrete results

Perhaps this list will help you clarify the distinction between INTJ and INTP.

 

[Mal12345]

http://comptalk.fiu.edu/thinking_styles.htm

 

[Zarathustra]

This thread is full of player haters; you gotta respect each team member and our various unique gifts if you wish to accomplish stuff!

I frankly don't know shit about functions, at least on a universal level, but based upon my reading of this thread, I believe to have observed the following points:

1. INTPs determine the value of things by how they match their own internal constructions - INTJs develop various models that can change with context.
2. INTPs follow the guidance of definitions and how they connect to other categories - INTJs warp the world around and alter the foundations behind its architecture.
3. INTPs look for consistency between a static blueprint and its design - INTJs conceive contingent tranformations in evolutionary processes.

On the whole, with INTPs there seems to be a focus on sound systems of logic, and INTJs on all the changes creation can take.

Well folks, me being dead wrong or at least not completely right about parts in my above 'explanation' is a very real possibility, and as such, please feel free to point out anything I got wrong.

It was pretty good, actually.

The one thing I would mention is that INTJs don't warp and alter the world merely by thinking about stuff (which is how your description makes it sound). Rather, we use perspective shifts to imagine warped worlds and how alternative foundations to those which are usually (or being) considered may explain the world's architecture.

Any actual (i.e., objective) world-warping/foundation-altering can only take place on a more practical plane, like in business, politics, or some other schema in which an INTJ is trying to warp/alter something which they actually can affect (unlike the foundations of the universe).

 

[INTP]

This thread is full of player haters; you gotta respect each team member and our various unique gifts if you wish to accomplish stuff!

I frankly don't know shit about functions, at least on a universal level, but based upon my reading of this thread, I believe to have observed the following points:

1. INTPs determine the value of things by how they match their own internal constructions - INTJs develop various models that can change with context.
2. INTPs follow the guidance of definitions and how they connect to other categories - INTJs warp the world around and alter the foundations behind its architecture.
3. INTPs look for consistency between a static blueprint and its design - INTJs conceive contingent tranformations in evolutionary processes.

On the whole, with INTPs there seems to be a focus on sound systems of logic, and INTJs on all the changes creation can take.

Well folks, me being dead wrong or at least not completely right about parts in my above 'explanation' is a very real possibility, and as such, please feel free to point out anything I got wrong.

INTJs: concrete facts/reasons in the external world is abstracted through the subjective lens of possibilities. in the process the subjective view will be altered and then new concrete facts are viewed again through this new lens, which was influenced by the previous concrete facts(that happened to get through altered or unaltered by the abstraction process). this end result is what is seen as the reality(or maybe reality might be the wrong word, more like the view of things which will be acted based on). also personal complexes create quite a lot bigger bias to the process than what is apparent to other people and more often than not, to the INTJ himself.

INTPs: possibilities triggered by the things in external world are analyzed and abstracted by logical reasoning. if some possibility is seen as possible due to it being rational and following logical reasoning, it will shape the reasoning of what is possible later. concrete facts in the external world arent seen as anything more real than the possibilities hiding behind them, because there is a possibility that what is seen isnt what it seems to be. because of this, the rationale and logic is seen as the "higher truth" than mere perceptions of what seems to be or plausible possibilities. while complexes create bias to all types, its not nearly as strong for INTPs usually, but what does create more bias to the INTP is the reasoning skills and which way they have developed. for instance if some piece of information is missing, it might skew up some logical conclusion, which might affect some other conclusion etc etc. but lucky changing some single parameter in the big picture is easy for us, because all it takes is a bit of logical reasoning

when it comes to values, i think INTPs are much more rigid on things being good or bad than INTJs. from my experience in discussing about stuff as war and stuff like that with INTJs, while the INTJ point of view is that war is bad mmkay, but these sort of necessary evils have to be done, therefore its okay to kill people in circumstances of XXX. while my point of view is that killing cant be justified ever, except if someone is personally trying to kill you or someone else. and when it comes to things like defending our country for example if russians tried to conquer our country, i think it would still be unethical to kill them(majority of the soldiers would obviously be there and not wanting to kill, but doing so because their generals would kill them), unless they had a gun pointing at me and it would be unethical to deliberately get yourself in a situation where that might be the case. personally i would just flee to a forest if they attacked here and wouldnt care if i had to spend 20 years in prison for not defending my country, because at least i could act according to my moral laws..

 

[Zarathustra]

...also personal complexes create quite a lot bigger bias to the process than what is apparent to other people and more often than not, to the INTJ himself.

...while complexes create bias to all types, its not nearly as strong for INTPs usually...

Although, ironically, it was an inferiority complex that caused these two (inaccurate and unnecessary) lines to be included in this otherwise accurate description.

 

[Mal12345]

Although, ironically, it was an inferiority complex that caused these two (inaccurate and unnecessary) lines to be included in this otherwise accurate description.

And then there's the circular expression, "if some possibility is seen as possible..."

It's as if "possibility" is just axiomatic or something, definable only by its opposite.

 

[INTP]

Although, ironically, it was an inferiority complex that caused these two (inaccurate and unnecessary) lines to be included in this otherwise accurate description.

haha i knew you were going to cry about that

i think this would be easier for you to understand if you would learn about the concept of complex in more depth. it might even allow you to look at the sentence from more objective point of view, instead of just acting out from your complexes.

its funny that you mentioned inferiority complex, because well:

An inferiority complex, is a behavior that is displayed through a lack of self-worth, an increase of doubt and uncertainty, and feeling of not measuring up to society's standards. It is often subconscious, and is thought to drive afflicted individuals to overcompensate, resulting either in spectacular achievement or extreme antisocial behavior.

this is something that is seen in so many INTJs that its not even funny..

 

[INTP]

And then there's the circular expression, "if some possibility is seen as possible..."

It's as if "possibility" is just axiomatic or something, definable only by its opposite.

This is what intuition produces in INTPs:

possibility:
Possibility also refers to something that "could happen", that is not precluded by the facts, but usually not probable.

This is when the intuited idea is abstracted and reasoned and is found out that its not contradict any proven facts, laws or circumstances:

possible:
1. Capable of happening, existing, or being true without contradicting proven facts, laws, or circumstances.
2. Capable of occurring or being done without offense to character, nature, or custom.

I thought english was your native language :O

 

[Zarathustra]

haha i knew you were going to cry about that

Yes, and I knew that you knew that I'd called you out for its idiocy.

i think this would be easier for you to understand if you would learn about the concept of complex in more depth. it might even allow you to look at the sentence from more objective point of view, instead of just acting out from your complexes.

I think it would be easier for you to understand why it's inaccurate if you were to become more self-aware, and realize all the complexes that INTPs regularly carry with them. There's a reason INTPs are so predominantly enneagram 5, and enneagram 5 is the most common type to be plagued by personality disorders (schizoid, schizotypal, passive agressive, avoidant).

its funny that you mentioned inferiority complex, because well:

this is something that is seen in so many INTJs that its not even funny..

It's also something that tons of INTPs carry with them.

And something that many INTPs misread into INTJs.

A wee bit of projection, one might conclude...

"ohhhh he only behaves that way because he actually feels inferior!"

*subconsciously feels inferior*

*doesn't realize it*

*doesn't realize he might just be projecting*

 

[INTP]

Yes, and I knew that you knew that I'd called you out for its idiocy.



I think it would be easier for you to understand why it's inaccurate if you were to become more self-aware, and realize all the complexes that INTPs regularly carry with them.



It's also something that tons of INTPs carry with them.

And something that many INTPs misread into INTJs.

I knew it because you always come to cry when someone says that INTJ has a weakness

I already mentioned that everyone has complexes, complexes are the structures of our personal unconscious, if someone didnt have complexes, they would pretty much be brain dead. this is ofc obvious if you knew what a complex is, but still you come to cry about it :----DDD

Yea, you just pretty much proved my point with this complex thing, you are starting to act totally irrational about this when i evoked some complex of yours(and how easy it was to do that)

 

[Zarathustra]

I knew it because you always come to cry when someone says that INTJ has a weakness

Actually, no.

I don't raise issue when someone says INTJs have a weakness.

In fact, I've spent a ton of time on here detailing and describing INTJ weaknesses.

(and I have no problem when others do as well [at least not when what they say is accurate].)

What I take issue with is when people make stupid comparisons that raise one group up, while lowering another group, when such raising/lowering is not actually reflective of reality, but is simply due to their own feelings of inferiority, and their consequent need to create such a false construction and promulgate it for little reason other than to support their own otherwise insecure, deflated ego.

I already mentioned that everyone has complexes, complexes are the structures of our personal unconscious, if someone didnt have complexes, they would pretty much be brain dead. this is ofc obvious if you knew what a complex is, but still you come to cry about it :----DDD

If you were able to reason better, you'd realize that you're not even arguing against what I said, and, as such, this is nothing more than a .

Yea, you just pretty much proved my point with this complex thing, you are starting to act totally irrational about this when i evoked some complex of yours(and how easy it was to do that)

Once again, no.

You are displaying your complex, and don't even realize it.

There's nothing irrational about what I'm doing, but you feel the need to think there is.

(due to an inferiority complex [which even your fellow INTPs have repeatedly pointed out])

 

[INTP]

Once again, no.

I don't raise issue when someone says INTJs have a weakness.

In fact, I've spent a ton of time on here detailing and describing INTJ weaknesses.

What I take issue with is when people make stupid comparisons that raise one group up, while lowering another group, when such raising/lowering is not actually reflective of reality, but is simply due to their own feelings of inferiority, and their consequent need to create such a false construction and promulgate it for little reason more than to support their own ego.



If you were able to reason better, you'd realize that you're not even arguing against what I said, and, as such, this is nothing more than a .



Actually, no.

You are displaying your complex, and don't even realize it.

There's nothing irrational about what I'm doing, but you feel the need to think there is.

(due to an inferiority complex [which even your fellow INTPs have repeatedly pointed out])

you see, i was just making an objective observation, not saying that one is better than another. also while it is true that INTJs complexes create larger bias to their vision of things(both Ni and Fi work by abstracting based on complexes and archetypes, to be more exact they strive to archetype, but there is complexes between the archetype and consciousness, so the archetype will be colored by complexes when tried to access), its also true that many types do this more than INTJs(does mentioning this ease your pain?). but the idea of this topic is to compare INTJs and INTPs, not other types, therefore mentioning that is irrelevant.

also its painfully obvious that you are misinterpreting what i said and having pretty strong bias to my words and this is exactly what i meant when i said that.

you see introverted functions process by abstracting information that they get, this abstraction process strives to archetype, but archetype isnt something you can put in any conscious frame of mind. archetype is like higgs boson, you cant see, touch or smell it, but you can see what mass it creates and this mass is the complex to the archetype.

its pretty obvious that you are missing some of the crucial things on terms i am using and therefore get to a wrong conclusions. but to which conclusions you get is what shows the complexes, since complexes guide the conclusions. also the fact that you are getting so offensive is a sign that there is some complex playing a big role on your thinking.

knowing how INTJs work, me trying to argue against you makes no difference, because you have already made up your mind and taken offensive attitude, so you will defend your view no matter what sort of rational explanation and examples i will offer you. and the reason for this common INTJ behavior stems from exactly what i said and which you are trying to deny

 

[Zarathustra]

you see, i was just making an objective observation...

False.

You made a claim.

Not an objective observation.

You have no evidence, other than your own internal logical schema (i.e., belief), to back it up.

And since your internal logical schema is based on your own complexes, everything I said was true.

...not saying that one is better than another.

Putting aside the fact that it was not an objective observation, this could potentially be true.

But, knowing you and how you operate, and looking at the claim itself, to presume that there is an embedded value judgment in not to large of a leap.

also while it is true that INTJs complexes create larger bias to their vision of things(both Ni and Fi work by abstracting based on complexes and archetypes, to be more exact they strive to archetype, but there is complexes between the archetype and consciousness, so the archetype will be colored by complexes when tried to access), its also true that many types do this more than INTJs(does mentioning this ease your pain?). but the idea of this topic is to compare INTJs and INTPs, not other types, therefore mentioning that is irrelevant.

I don't really care what types you think do it more and do it less, cuz I don't think you have a shred of evidence to justify those claims.

Your need to put INTPs on a pedestal (while knocking down other types), however, runs so perfectly in line with what you're claiming here that the possibility that the justification for your belief really comes down to nothing more than your own complex(es) seems highly likely.

also its painfully obvious that you are misinterpreting what i said and having pretty strong bias to my words and this is exactly what i meant when i said that.

No, not really.

I just think you made a false claim, and have no evidence to back it up.

It's also ironic, because it's your own complexes that have caused you to make this false, unsubstantiated claim.

Everything you've written above and below applies to you just the same as everybody else.

you see introverted functions process by abstracting information that they get, this abstraction process strives to archetype, but archetype isnt something you can put in any conscious frame of mind. archetype is like higgs boson, you cant see, touch or smell it, but you can see what mass it creates and this mass is the complex to the archetype.

its pretty obvious that you are missing some of the crucial things on terms i am using and therefore get to a wrong conclusions. but to which conclusions you get is what shows the complexes, since complexes guide the conclusions. also the fact that you are getting so offensive is a sign that there is some complex playing a big role on your thinking.

knowing how INTJs work, me trying to argue against you makes no difference, because you have already made up your mind and taken offensive attitude, so you will defend your view no matter what sort of rational explanation and examples i will offer you. and the reason for this common INTJ behavior stems from exactly what i said and which you are trying to deny

This is all well and good, and can be true to some extent in certain areas (and likewise untrue to some extent in some), but the fact of the matter is you're not immune to these same issues, and what I called you out for was absolutely spot on.

Start looking into your own issues a bit more, and start looking into what these have to do with you always having a bone to pick with INTJs. It's clear that you have them, and it's clear that they're the source of your behavior in this regard.

 

[Blackmail!]

Just compare the two fora:

INTP-c: Hellish chaotic place full of immature imps.

INTJ-forum: Insane totalitarian place full of immature robots.

It's the indisputable proof that Asperger's syndrome comes with at least two different flavours...

 

[INTP]

False.

You made a claim.

Not an objective observation.

You have no evidence, other than your own internal logical schema (i.e., belief), to back it up.

And since your internal logical schema is based on your own complexes, everything I said was true.



Putting aside the fact that it was not an objective observation, this could potentially be true.

But, knowing you and how you operate, and looking at the claim itself, to presume that there is an embedded value judgment in not to large of a leap.



I don't really care what types you think do it more and do it less, cuz I don't think you have a shred of evidence to justify those claims.

Your need to put INTPs on a pedestal (while knocking down other types), however, runs so perfectly in line with what you're claiming here that the possibility that the justification for your belief really comes down to nothing more than your own complex(es) seems highly likely.



No, not really.

I just think you made a false claim, and have no evidence to back it up.

It's also ironic, because it's your own complexes that have caused you to make this false, unsubstantiated claim.

Everything you've written above and below applies to you just the same as everybody else.



This is all well and good, and can be true to some extent in certain areas (and likewise untrue to some extent in some), but the fact of the matter is you're not immune to these same issues, and what I called you out for was absolutely spot on.

Start looking into your own issues a bit more, and start looking into what these have to do with you always having a bone to pick with INTJs. It's clear that you have them, and it's clear that they're the source of your behavior in this regard.

i said that everyone has complexes and they create bias to everyones thought

A cognitive bias is the human tendency to make systematic decisions in certain circumstances based on cognitive factors rather than evidence.

just that INTJs tend to have more biases than INTPs in general when it comes to .

now you are talking about me thinking that im superior and thinking that i dont have any biases. how is what you are saying not based on a cognitive bias? i mean, instead of actually taking in what i said(evidence), you based your misinterpreted view on what i said based on some subjective thoughts of yours(cognitive factors). like i already told, you already showed what i said in action and i dont really care to throw nuggets of reason at your shield, you have proven it so many times in the past that it just isnt gonna work and other INTJs have done the same so many times in similar situations that its clearly some INTJ quality(which i dont claim that INTJs couldnt get over with).

now go cry to your mommy if you need to cry, i really dont care

 

[Zarathustra]

i said that everyone has complexes and they create bias to everyones thought

just that INTJs tend to have more biases than INTPs in general when it comes to .

When it comes to... ??

And evidence for said claim?

now you are talking about me thinking that im superior and thinking that i dont have any biases.

False.

Learn to read.

Good job showing your cognitive biases, tho.

Next step is unraveling the complexes that cause you to behave this way.

 

[Il Morto Che Parla]

I think IxTPs are more defined by their complexes because they have inferior Fe, so it can come to be their shadow, an externalised trauma guiding their motions which they identify as an external agent bombarding them.

The INTJ is more liekly to be aware of their Fi, allowing them to integrate and control it.

this is based on 1.) What I have observed with INTPs online and 2.) The theory which I recoursed to in order to explain said observations, which correlates with them.

The exception here is healthy IxTPs, which I see few of online, probably because of the nature of forums.

 

[Zarathustra]

I think IxTPs are more defined by their complexes because they have inferior Fe, so it can come to be their shadow, an externalised trauma guiding their motions which they identify as an external agent bombarding them.

The INTJ is more liekly to be aware of their Fi, allowing them to integrate and control it.

this is based on 1.) What I have observed with INTPs online and 2.) The theory which I recoursed to in order to explain said observations, which correlates with them.

The exception here is healthy IxTPs, which I see few of online, probably because of the nature of forums.

I would want to see a lot of really strong evidence before jumping to any conclusion about one type suffering from more complexes than any other.

Inferior Se in INTJs, not to mention suppressed/rejected tertiary Fi, can cause all kinds of issues too.

Every type can suffer from this shit, and I highly doubt anybody actually knows the varying extents (if they even are varying) to which they do.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Just compare the two fora:

INTP-c: Hellish chaotic place full of immature imps.

INTJ-forum: Insane totalitarian place full of immature robots.

It's the indisputable proof that Asperger's syndrome comes with at least two different flavours...

I'm not trying to derail this thread, but I just feel I need to clarify that neither social awkwardness nor being an introverted NT equal Asperger's. People are perfectly capable of being socially awkward, as well as an introverted NT, without being autistic.

Sorry, it's just a pet peeve of mine.