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[ENTJ] Do perceivers have a better understanding of...

Cypocalypse

New member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
252
MBTI Type
eNtP
Enneagram
4w5/
...CORRELATION?

I heard an ENTJ once said, something like this,

"The ideal man would be someone like me (or my archetype), without my bad traits."

Even if he recognizes his faults, I still find the statement to be egotistic. Though actually, it's not the egotism that surprises me, but the merits of the statement.

I could have responded something like,

"Well, that can't be possible, right? For almost every positive trait you manage to develop, something perceivably bad comes with it. The good comes with the bad, it's like they're interlocked. Yin and Yang. One comes with the other. That's why morality is relative, with few absolute grounds."

______________

It's kinda like Perceiving and Judging. Correlated. But more like inversely proportional with each other. You can't increase J when you develop P and vice versa. Each of them have their good and bad traits.

They cannot be separated in such a way that one can just have a wishful thinking of not having some of the traits or trade-offs that a certain decision makes.

_____________

The statement the ENTJ said made me think of TJs actually think of character progression as something like an RPG-like leveling up where there's a clean-cut progression where there's hardly minimal tradeoff.

On the other hand, a perceiver may value hierarchical equality because of their full awareness of trade-offs, and it helps them better by seeing things in gray, hence the carefulness in decision making.
 

entropie

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 24, 2008
Messages
16,767
MBTI Type
entp
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783
You are on your way to learn something not many people know. And you are on the right way

I dont know if it can be described via mbti terms and I dont want to try
 

Two Point Two

New member
Joined
Dec 10, 2008
Messages
200
MBTI Type
INTJ
Is there a reason you're attributing this to this person's J-ness (or TJ-ness) specifically?
 

thisGuy

New member
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
1,187
MBTI Type
entp
i do...that much i know

it IS hard to register the two sides-of-a-coin paradigm with a xxxJ unless they have a vested interest in the information...otherwise you will face apathy that you will recognize as being the future downfall of their person
 

FDG

pathwise dependent
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
5,903
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
7w8
Well, you really have some issue with ENTjs, it seems...
 

tinkerbell

New member
Joined
Aug 31, 2008
Messages
3,487
MBTI Type
ENTP
Its typically ENTJ arrogance... tey tend to value the things they are good at and not value the things they are bad at. They can be very difficult to get on with, massively controling etc.

For all traits ave both good and bad sides when taken to extreme. Say you are a particuarly sunny character who smiles all the time. The downside is that when bad news needs to be broken or you are disciplning kids it's difficult to seem appropriate.

For ENTP's there can be a down side to their skills aquisition.... being too capable makes others feel incapable and unwilling to support you because they can't compare or will feel their efforts are poor... hence selective vulnerability is key for an ENTP to learn.

As for P/J well that is preference... P's typically don't like J things, when taken to their extreme they are forever getting their phone cut off/bills not paid because they haven't got their act together. I can be quite J typed when I'm trying to learn a new skill
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
Do perceivers have an inadequate sense of the completed object? If an ENTJ says the ideal man is me minus bad traits, then he's describing an end-product, after work has been done to minimise bad traits.

TJs actually do think of character development in terms of leveling-up. Accomplishing, completing, progressing. You are welcome to get over your stasis.


PS. I'm under the impression NFJs think that way too.
 

kathara

New member
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
167
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5
"The ideal man would be someone like me (or my archetype), without my bad traits."



"Well, that can't be possible, right? For almost every positive trait you manage to develop, something perceivably bad comes with it. The good comes with the bad, it's like they're interlocked. Yin and Yang. One comes with the other. That's why morality is relative, with few absolute grounds."

Yes, but those 2nd bad qualities do not have to be identical to the 1st type of bad qualities.

E.G.

If an ENTJ is time obsessed, then the idea mate would be relaxed when it came to time. He/she would develop a bad quality, let's say, being air-headed, which is not among ENTJ's flaws. Therefore, it is doable.
 

Kra

Black Magic Buzzard
Joined
Jun 24, 2009
Messages
912
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
4w5
I wouldn't say that Js don't see the correlation that you're talking about here.

I can't speak for all Js, but I see the fact that there are positives and negatives to everything. I just think that Js are more willing to pick an approach/object/idea that is overall best suited for the situation at hand, and sacrifice the other/s.

Objectivity is valuable to me, and I seek it to a reasonable extent. However, when it ceases to be useful, I must make a decision based on what it has shown me. Being completely objective is not a functional approach when one exists in such a subjective (human) world from my experience.
 

Shimmy

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Jun 9, 2009
Messages
1,867
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SEXY
...CORRELATION?

I heard an ENTJ once said, something like this,

"The ideal man would be someone like me (or my archetype), without my bad traits."

Even if he recognizes his faults, I still find the statement to be egotistic. Though actually, it's not the egotism that surprises me, but the merits of the statement.

I could have responded something like,

"Well, that can't be possible, right? For almost every positive trait you manage to develop, something perceivably bad comes with it. The good comes with the bad, it's like they're interlocked. Yin and Yang. One comes with the other. That's why morality is relative, with few absolute grounds."

______________

It's kinda like Perceiving and Judging. Correlated. But more like inversely proportional with each other. You can't increase J when you develop P and vice versa. Each of them have their good and bad traits.

They cannot be separated in such a way that one can just have a wishful thinking of not having some of the traits or trade-offs that a certain decision makes.

_____________

The statement the ENTJ said made me think of TJs actually think of character progression as something like an RPG-like leveling up where there's a clean-cut progression where there's hardly minimal tradeoff.

On the other hand, a perceiver may value hierarchical equality because of their full awareness of trade-offs, and it helps them better by seeing things in gray, hence the carefulness in decision making.

I think it's more of a realisation that individuals can have rather then a typical type based thing. That said, there could most certainly be a correlation :newwink: between this realisation and type.
 

Venom

Babylon Candle
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
2,126
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
The statement the ENTJ said made me think of TJs actually think of character progression as something like an RPG-like leveling up where there's a clean-cut progression where there's hardly minimal tradeoff.

On the other hand, a perceiver may value hierarchical equality because of their full awareness of trade-offs, and it helps them better by seeing things in gray, hence the carefulness in decision making.

1. What if leveling up involves learning to make trade offs? Ie the very traits that make ENTJs so great in business can make then unlucky in Fe/Fi. Perhaps the leveling up is making the trade offs at the appropriate interval. In this sense, even the "trade off"rs learn to 'level up.

2. I think your basing way too much ENTJ negative stigma on the one jack ass ENTJ you talk to on that other forum. Really, I sense a bit of arrogance in your many posts when you "expose" the entjs for all that they are :rolleyes2:

dont paint with such a wide brush. Not all ENTJs are so full of themselves.
 

Cypocalypse

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Jan 26, 2008
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252
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eNtP
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4w5/
Do perceivers have an inadequate sense of the completed object? If an ENTJ says the ideal man is me minus bad traits, then he's describing an end-product, after work has been done to minimise bad traits.

TJs actually do think of character development in terms of leveling-up. Accomplishing, completing, progressing. You are welcome to get over your stasis.


PS. I'm under the impression NFJs think that way too.


The ENTJs I know have almost full denial of their weak traits. To say something like "minimizing" would already be a bit condescending on their part.

With regard to completed object, I think perceivers consider chanracter development to always be in a state of flux, progressive or otherwise, hence disliking the idea of "completed". It's more like an ongoing process.
 

simulatedworld

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Nov 7, 2008
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7w6
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sx/so
______________

It's kinda like Perceiving and Judging. Correlated. But more like inversely proportional with each other. You can't increase J when you develop P and vice versa. Each of them have their good and bad traits.

They cannot be separated in such a way that one can just have a wishful thinking of not having some of the traits or trade-offs that a certain decision makes.


_____________


Very good. Many ENTJs refuse to accept this, for some reason, instead believing themselves to be supermen.

They do not like admitting weakness or even the possibility that it exists. It's threatening.
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
Very good. Many ENTJs refuse to accept this, for some reason, instead believing themselves to be supermen.

They do not like admitting weakness or even the possibility that it exists. It's threatening.


That's not what you said when you were pounding on my door last night.
 

FDG

pathwise dependent
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IM NOT WEAK, DO YOU UNDERSTAND, I'M NOT WEAK
 

INTJ123

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Jun 20, 2009
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ESFP
1. What if leveling up involves learning to make trade offs? Ie the very traits that make ENTJs so great in business can make then unlucky in Fe/Fi. Perhaps the leveling up is making the trade offs at the appropriate interval. In this sense, even the "trade off"rs learn to 'level up.

2. I think your basing way too much ENTJ negative stigma on the one jack ass ENTJ you talk to on that other forum. Really, I sense a bit of arrogance in your many posts when you "expose" the entjs for all that they are :rolleyes2:

dont paint with such a wide brush. Not all ENTJs are so full of themselves.

Yea most of them are full of themselves.
 

FDG

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Well, how can't you be full of yourself when you're so close to god?

I think perceivers have a worse understand of when judgers are just bullshitting. When I'm not at class/work, most of what I say is complete rubbish (not in the sense that they're lies, but they're comments not to be taken seriously).
 

substitute

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May 27, 2007
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Well, how can't you be full of yourself when you're so close to god?

I think perceivers have a worse understand of when judgers are just bullshitting. When I'm not at class/work, most of what I say is complete rubbish (not in the sense that they're lies, but they're comments not to be taken seriously).

yeah, I've learned not to underestimate the issues that can be caused by misunderstanding another person's sense of humour... or how easy it is to do that.
 

Kangol

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May 26, 2009
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INTP
I don't agree that there is a necessary trade-off between J and P, but this is from my perception of the mbti dichotomies.

I believe someone who has a firm sense of their beliefs on which they can act readily, plan efficiently, and remain unwavering in difficult situations to have strong J values. However, I believe if that person were to also be able to assess the situation from all relevantly significant perspectives, be able to adapt to new and unforeseen circumstances calmly, and have little difficulty accepting the plausibility of others' differing opinions, they would also have strong P values.

This balance of strong, positive J and P values would result in a balanced score on the mbti test dichotomy. I believe it to also be an ideal in personalities in regard to the J/P aspect, as such balanced people have the strengths associated with both sides of the dichotomies. In this sense, I think the ENTJ is right. Perhaps he (she?) is in this way admitting his own faults, and that a person more balanced along the dichotomies would be an ideal. This doesn't negate the potential fact that he's a pompous ass, but it also doesn't mean he's not right.
 
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