[NT] Please help me.

[Jaguar]

^ Suicidal people don't create threads like this.

 

[SilkRoad]

^ Suicidal people don't create threads like this.

Maybe he's not suicidal, but not having pleasure in anything is also a sign of severe depression.

I know people who've killed themselves and people who've been thinking about it seriously. (They are often also still capable of philosophizing.) So this tends to be my main concern with posts like these.

 

[Totenkindly]

Been there, done that.

You're on the right path.

You've seen the truth according to your old way of doing things, and have taken your beliefs to their logical conclusion.

Now you do your business or you get off the pot.

If you can't learn to evaluate life differently, then yeah, you're going to be existentially depressed for the rest of it.... however short or long it is. You have a chance here to grow and change and learn to see life in a new way, and to use different criteria to make some of your decisions and become healthier and more well-rounded in the process... or you can quit.

I mean, really, if none of this matters, if you're in control, if you firmly believe it's all biological processes at core level and that drives all behavior directly... why are you bothering to post here and ask for help? None of it matters anyway. (Unless of course, you can't help but post since you're driven to do so.) Nothing we tell you can fix everything. Why should we even care to invest in you?

Thus, rationally, either that frame of reality is the predominate one and the correct one (whereupon you think your life has no value)... or there are other frames that you have to learn to see within. You just can't envision them yet. I think you're not going to find yourself until you give yourself away.

It's up to you.

 

[Jonny]

I am not an NT, so you should probably disregard my response... Does that make sense?

I do not value truth, I do not disvalue truth. I see truth as holding value depending on what goals one wishes to achieve. You say what I do has no value, but what is value? Value is relative, and due to my impulse to be impossibly objective, nothing I see has value. I have a dichotomy of character. A need to have a purpose for everything that I do, but a realization that purpose is itself created by man's desire. How can I justify any action when that action is based on something that is unjustifiable, my own desire. If desire were the only justification, then it should be justifiable to rape, to murder, to torture a child into committing suicide, as long as such a thing was desirable to the person performing the action.

There is an inherent unfairness to the universe which I can no longer stand. Our society will punish some for actions while at the same time attempt to help others who perform the very same actions. Justification for this is proximity to the majority. If I were to kill a bunch of people, but it was discovered that I had an operable brain tumor in the part of my brain controlling aggression and self control, people might sympathize and let me off the hook. "Gosh, I could see something like that happening to myself." However, if what led me to perform such an action could not be distinguished, or was perhaps related to a abnormalities in my brain that the majority could reasonably assume would not befall them, then I would be sent away for life. In both circumstances, the cause of such actions would be structural, and theoretically curable. But, we treat them differently. It is really just people being pissed off and wanting to punish someone. There is no justice.

I do not need to experiment with my beliefs about control and the nature of humanity to know of their truth. I think if you were to deeply examine your own motivations, the way you "make decisions" you would agree with my understanding. You may not be obsessed with it, but you would concur.

I am disguised by myself, and I am disguised with humanity. I do appreciate your intelligence, however.

 

[Jonny]

Maybe he's not suicidal, but not having pleasure in anything is also a sign of severe depression.

I know people who've killed themselves and people who've been thinking about it seriously. (They are often also still capable of philosophizing.) So this tends to be my main concern with posts like these.

I'm not going to commit suicide. I might end up in a mental hospital, but I will not kill myself. I defintely am not looking for sympathy, just posts like a few posted above.

 

[Kalach]

I am confused by this statement. If you would, please rephrase it.

Basically, you say this:

What is interesting about this is even now I am bound by the desires of humanity. I very much would like to thank everyone for their responses, thereby making a friendly social gesture in an attempt to experience a closeness with other members of the forum. At the same time, I see this desire for what it is, evolutionarily driven, and it disgusts me. I am really not very thankful, and yet would benefit from stating that I am because it would perhaps welcome more people to respond (maybe make me more likeable?).

And I say it reads like you have textbook extraverted feeling, and (fortunately or unfortunately) you seriously question the authenticity of the feeling.

A whole bunch of MBTI model theory says that's to be expected, Fe being way down the function order and therefore, as far as conscious identity goes, subject to the disdain of the higher functions. One can end up saying of the inferior function, "that's not me, it's not real."

It's worth exploring if only because some day some ENFJ is going to latch on to you and exactly that question of feeling authenticity is what you'll be called upon to answer just to be able to deal with her.

Courage, lad! They're beasts that believe everyone else are the beasts, and when you get the question of feeling right, you'll be just the beast for them.

 

[Athenian200]

I do not value truth, I do not disvalue truth. I see truth as holding value depending on what goals one wishes to achieve. You say what I do has no value, but what is value? Value is relative, and due to my impulse to be impossibly objective, nothing I see has value. I have a dichotomy of character. A need to have a purpose for everything that I do, but a realization that purpose is itself created by man's desire. How can I justify any action when that action is based on something that is unjustifiable, my own desire. If desire were the only justification, then it should be justifiable to rape, to murder, to torture a child into committing suicide, as long as such a thing was desirable to the person performing the action.

There is an inherent unfairness to the universe which I can no longer stand. Our society will punish some for actions while at the same time attempt to help others who perform the very same actions. Justification for this is proximity to the majority. If I were to kill a bunch of people, but it was discovered that I had an operable brain tumor in the part of my brain controlling aggression and self control, people might sympathize and let me off the hook. "Gosh, I could see something like that happening to myself." However, if what led me to perform such an action could not be distinguished, or was perhaps related to a abnormalities in my brain that the majority could reasonably assume would not befall them, then I would be sent away for life. In both circumstances, the cause of such actions would be structural, and theoretically curable. But, we treat them differently. It is really just people being pissed off and wanting to punish someone. There is no justice.

I do not need to experiment with my beliefs about control and the nature of humanity to know of their truth. I think if you were to deeply examine your own motivations, the way you "make decisions" you would agree with my understanding. You may not be obsessed with it, but you would concur.

I am disguised by myself, and I am disguised with humanity. I do appreciate your intelligence, however.

I actually do concur. There is no justice. But is not your need for justice just as irrational as the will which you're opposing? It is certainly just as artificial a concept as will, if not more so. Can you not simply accept that life is unfair, and that you must act in accordance with something that is unfair, because that is the kind of world you live in? If you cannot, you're simply being idealistic and silly.

Sometimes, injustice/imbalance is the only thing that produces results and understanding. Justice is balanced, and thus often results in stagnation. Imbalance produces movement and change, balance produces stagnation.

If you are truly curious, you should be willing to accept, and possibly even cause, injustice in order to satisfy your curiosity. I believe that's what the creators of this world did, and I can understand why.

 

[Jaguar]

I may or may not be intuitive. But in the context of MBTI, I am assuredly INTP. In any event, agenda preserved.

The only agenda in this thread is yours.
I assure you, it won't be preserved.

 

[Intricate Mystic]

What is interesting about this is even now I am bound by the desires of humanity. I very much would like to thank everyone for their responses, thereby making a friendly social gesture in an attempt to experience a closeness with other members of the forum. At the same time, I see this desire for what it is, evolutionarily driven, and it disgusts me. I am really not very thankful, and yet would benefit from stating that I am because it would perhaps welcome more people to respond (maybe make me more likable?). I long to be something more than a fucking selfish monkey who justifies his actions in ways that better suit his selfishness. But the way our current concept of selflessness works, one must in essence be selfish for another person to be considered selfless. If I donate a kidney to help a dying child, I am in essense doing the same thing as if the child were selfish and demanded the kidney from me. Why is it that people who give up parts of themselves for others are considered so great? It is because people enjoy the fact that there are people like that, all the more for them.

If you donate a kidney to someone, it is an act of love. The recipient is receiving a gift that allows them to live. I expect that they don't feel selfish.... they would feel extremely grateful and humbled by such a gift. People enjoy the fact that there are generous, kind people in the world because it is evidence of love in the world. It is humanity at it's best.

Have you ever read the book, Descarte's Error: Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain? It gives evidence that rational thinking is not possible without the input of emotion. You seem somewhat devoid of emotion... you have, as you said, "never enjoyed activities as others do", so you are devoid of joy? I think that this is where your problem lies.... in the realm of feelings. If you are depressed (which I think you are), your ability to feel anything is restricted, therefore your reasoning ability is faulty as well. We are NOT pure thinking. That is abnormal.

 

[Jonny]

I actually do concur. There is no justice. But is not your need for justice just as irrational as the will which you're opposing? It is certainly just as artificial a concept as will, if not more so. Can you not simply accept that life is unfair, and that you must act in accordance with something that is unfair, because that is the kind of world you live in? If you cannot, you're simply being idealistic and silly.

Sometimes, injustice/imbalance is the only thing that produces results and understanding. Justice is balanced, and thus often results in stagnation.

I don't know if my need for justice is irrational, but it is indeed emotional. I hate that need. I wish it were gone. I feel as though I am both an NF and an NT, and that each fights for control on a daily basis. The NF longs for fairness and happiness and love, but the NT sees these things as inherently meaningless. They are only given meaning when they are put in the context of achieving some particular end, but that end is itself meaningless in the big scheme of things.

I have a desire to have sex with my girlfriend, and then I see myself as a fucking dog humping a leg when I do so. I have a desire for friendship, but I see myself as a monkey picking grubs off of another's back when I engage in ultimately-biological-meaningless-bonding-talk. I have a desire to achieve greatness, but I see myself as a weak person seeking the approval of my peers. I have a desire to know, but I see knowledge as meaningless if it serves no purpose but to be present in my physical brain, then rot away after death. I have a desire for purose, but I see purpose as purposeless.

 

[Jonny]

Have you ever read the book, Descarte's Error: Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain? It gives evidence that rational thinking is not possible without the input of emotion.

I agree entirely. Those individuals who are rational, cold, and logical are ultimately driven by the emotional desire to be those things. My problem is my logical conclusions and my desire to be logical conflict with my other desires. It's an obsession.

 

[Habba]

To the thread starting post:

I'm no NT, and no master of biology, but I have shared your thoughts more than once. Well, mostly on the first part about people being nothing but matter and free will an illusion. More than once I've have had thoughts of people just being highly complex biological machines.

I think there's no way trying to reason your way out here. Rather than trying to prove these facts wrong, you could start living with the facts. There are things far more important than mere facts. Feelings and appearance for instance. How you feel about a fact is much much more important than the fact itself. How the facts appear to you are also far more important than the facts itself.

I think it's a common trait in N people to become depressed because they can see what's beyond everything. It's like finding out how magician does his tricks. Tricks are great and intriguing as long as you can't understand them. But once you do, tricks lose all the glory.

And you say you try to be objective. Why is that? Why not subjective? For what I understand, being subjective makes things feel more valuable. Objectivity takes this subjective value away, giving nothing in return. It's like watching football between team A and team B. It's a completely another story when it's your own team versus your rival team.

What I'm trying to say here, is that maybe change of perspective would be in place here. You sound like a highly intelligent person, capable of solving any given logical problem. But there's so much more to life than just mere logic... I had to find out that myself (depression, dropping out of school, break-up, yadayada...).

I hope you can find the help you need. It's not that easy, I know.

 

[Intricate Mystic]

I agree entirely. Those individuals who are rational, cold, and logical are ultimately driven by the emotional desire to be those things. My problem is my logical conclusions and my desire to be logical conflict with my other desires. It's an obsession.

What are your other desires? What do you think would happen if you could stop the obsessive thinking and let your other desires take priority?

 

[Athenian200]

I don't know if my need for justice is irrational, but it is indeed emotional. I hate that need. I wish it were gone. I feel as though I am both an NF and an NT, and that each fights for control on a daily basis. The NF longs for fairness and happiness and love, but the NT sees these things as inherently meaningless. They are only given meaning when they are put in the context of achieving some particular end, but that end is itself meaningless in the big scheme of things.

I have a desire to have sex with my girlfriend, and then I see myself as a fucking dog humping a leg when I do so. I have a desire for friendship, but I see myself as a monkey picking grubs off of another's back when I engage in ultimately-biological-meaningless-bonding-talk. I have a desire to achieve greatness, but I see myself as a weak person seeking the approval of my peers. I have a desire to know, but I see knowledge as meaningless if it serves no purpose but to be present in my physical brain, then rot away after death. I have a desire for purose, but I see purpose as purposeless.

Aha! We come to the root of your dilemma. You wish to avoid condescending to the level of an animal, because you have a belief that humans can be better than animals on some level. What you don't realize, is that in terms of motivations, humans have never been better than animals. Our superiority to them has always been intellectual, specifically in terms of creating things and plans, not moral. In terms of desires, we are, after all, equal to animals. Why must this be shameful to you?

Humans are social animals, like the monkeys you just described. Why is to weak to acquiesce to that fact and behave like an animal with an animal's purpose, but strong to fight it? It isn't... Ironically, by finding fault with the simplicity of what tends to be meaningful, you are attesting to the irrational belief that meaning should exist in a higher form. But ask yourself... why shouldn't such simple motivations be good enough for you? Why do you need to be better than an animal? Isn't THAT very motivation something you learned from society, rather than something that comes from within, or even a truth?

The point is, whether you kill yourself or stay alive, whether you keep this belief or abandon it, you are still a part of whatever you're talking about. So, why not embrace it? Just... stop listening to your intellect in regards to such things. I'm saying, have sex with your girlfriend, make friends, and aspire to greatness. Feel sad if you get dumped, worry about what they think of you, get frustrated when you can't get what you want. Because that's who you are, regardless of how pathetic it is logically. There's no point in using logic to run away from it. In fact, to run away from it is to be MORE dishonest than to accept it.

 

[Polaris]

I don't get why you think NTs are the only ones who can help you with this.

Your problem, and this may be the hardest thing for an INTP to accept, is that you're over-intellectualizing life. Life does not fit inside an equation; an equation fits inside life. The moment you reverse this rule and reduce your existence to a string of numbers, you lose touch with reality and lock yourself in a prison of your own making.

You need to experience life in its purest essence, and to do that, you turn off your brain and take things at face value. In real life--not the explanations in your head--you experience yourself as free; and in real life--not the explanations in your head--you are a being, not a collection of cells. You bring yourself down to the purest mode of consciousness and strip everything else away*; and from this viewpoint, the world transforms. Suddenly you realize that there are a hundred, a million, a thousand different paths you can take. Life forbids nothing; only you do.

So why would you convince yourself that you're a lump of molecules with no free will? That viewpoint might earn you a degree in physics, but it won't make life a pleasant experience.

*Consider this a focal device, not something you can actually attain. The purpose of this focal device is not to eliminate ideas, since ideas constitute awareness, but rather to know that these ideas are flux and flexible.

 

[Totenkindly]

Your problem, and this may be the hardest thing for an INTP to accept, is that you're over-intellectualizing life. Life does not fit inside an equation; an equation fits inside life. The moment you reverse this rule and reduce your existence to a string of numbers, you lose touch with reality and lock yourself in a prison of your own making.

You need to experience life in its purest essence, and to do that, you turn off your brain and take things at face value. In real life--not the explanations in your head--you experience yourself as free; and in real life--not the explanations in your head--you are a being, not a collection of cells. You bring yourself down to the purest mode of consciousness and strip everything else away*; and from this viewpoint, the world transforms. Suddenly you realize that there are a hundred, a million, a thousand different paths you can take. Life forbids nothing; only you do.

So why would you convince yourself that you're a lump of molecules with no free will? That viewpoint might earn you a degree in physics, but it won't make life a pleasant experience.

*Consider this a focal device, not something you can actually attain. The purpose of this focal device is not to eliminate ideas, since ideas constitute awareness, but rather to know that these ideas are flux and flexible.

Wow. I'm impressed.
(Honestly.)

Let's see what he does with it.

 

[EcK]

Alright proof:
- Your mind is not part of matter
- Your emotions are not part of matter
- Your senses are not part of matter
It's impossible to show someone a 'mind', 'emotion' and 'sense' in solid form.
So what are they if they are not matter?

That's fucking stupid.
The good old argument of 'green is in your head' doesn't connect with dualism. And dualism is more similar to comedy than philosophy to begin with.

 

[Habba]

blah blah blah

This was exactly what I was thinking with my post, except better expressed by far.

 

[Oaky]

That's fucking stupid.
The good old argument of 'green is in your head' doesn't connect with dualism. And dualism is more similar to comedy than philosophy to begin with.

He wanted proof. I gave proof. If he doesn't want to believe it, it's his choice. Same goes for anyone else. Also, if your going to quote me you might at least try and answer the question.

 

[Two Point Two]

There's a difference between recognising that everything is evolved, determined, random and meaningless, and attaching value to the fact that everything is evolved, determined, random and meaningless. And if you're attaching value, you're doing so from within the framework of things having meaning and purpose. If objective reality is the way you think it is, this is neither good nor bad - it just is. Valuing it only exists within the illusion.

Of course, the illusion is part of the objective reality, too - it's chemichal, electrical, subatomic, etc., but it is real, as what it is. So the valuing that humans do is real, if physical, and it's a part of objective reality. If humans attribute purpose to something, then even if this act is determined and physical, that doesn't make it any less a purpose-attribution.

Personally, the way I deal with these thoughts is by recognising that it doesn't matter if all of experiential existence is determined or random, evolved, purposeless, etc. The fact remains that there is experience, there is something it is like to value things and attribute meaning to them, and whatever that actually is, it can be nice. If reality allows happiness to exist by chance and not because there are immortal souls or what have you, then so be it - happiness still exists. And that seems to me to be enough.