[ENTJ] ENTJ's: Lucky in success, Unlucky in love

[Tikka]

So funny, as an ENFJ, I have the exact opposite problem. I blurt out my feelings for a girl waaaaay too early and waaaaaay too much. Which is, for a guy, 100% success recipe to scare a girl away.

Balance, dude, balance.

 

[htb]

A few years ago I drew up a list of names dating back to junior year of high school, when the opposite sex first discovered me: nearly 20 that I judged as unsuitable and turned down or implicitly dissuaded, five or so for whom I fell head over heels but couldn't win.

I prefer achievement to romance.

 

[Venom]

A few years ago I drew up a list of names dating back to junior year of high school, when the opposite sex first discovered me: nearly 20 that I judged as unsuitable and turned down or implicitly dissuaded, five or so for whom I fell head over heels but couldn't win.

I prefer achievement to romance.

so i take it the older wiser ENTJ is kind of telling us, "get used to it"?

 

[chegra]

Yes thats pretty much it. Get used to it.

For me what works is not really counting relationships as being part of me, so I didnt take an active part into trying to form it into my ideal relationship, and things tend to work out.

I think things start to take a turn for the worst when I start to care about the relationship.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I'm interested to hear the views of other ENTJ's (and everyone else for that matter) on this.

As an ENTJ, my personal strengths have led to continued success in academia and the professional world. Despite my substantial interest in financial and professional success, I have had one complaint that has obstructed my ability to enjoy my successes. This being the difficulty I have with forming deep and long lasting romantic relationships.

I, at 23 years of age, have had only two real relationships, neither of which continued past 2 months.

The first was on and off for 2 years (more off than on), and involved my HS sweetheart. I was too young to see she wasn't right for me, but luckily she knew I wasn't right for her.

The second occurred over the summer before my senior year of college and I basically lived at this girls place, but was never into her enough to put a label on it.

I realize that much of my inability in the realm of love, is indicative of my (past) status as a social neophyte. However, I have been working on this (harder than many of my posts here would indicate).

However, social awkwardness cannot fully explain (or even mostly explain) my hangups with women.

I believe that the reason I have so much trouble with the opposite sex (and social situations in general) is that I hold, potential romantic partners, (or other social acquaintances for that matter) up to the same standards I hold myself. Thus, it becomes a situation where I either, 1) fall head over heals for the person and want to spend the rest of my life with them instantaneously because they live up to my (admittedly) ridiculous standards, or 2) I only want to have sex with them because I am physically attracted to them but some other issue prevents me from opening up myself to emotional attachment. While this issue is often justified, i.e. she makes me want to jam a #2 pencil into my temple every time she opens her mouth, I feel that I too often nip potential relationships in the bud before I give the other person time to get to know me, or time for me to really get to know them.

In the first of the two instances presented above, my snap judgment and pursuit don't really stand as a social detriment, except for the fact that I've only encountered one girl in my experience on this planet that stirred my soul in such a way as to make me want to commit to her unconditionally, and that in that situation, my undying and immediate affection combined with her having a long term BF I didn't find out about until 3 weeks after I met her led to me scaring her off or pushing her away.

In the latter of the two instances, it often happens that I end the sexual contact the instant I realize that they don't fit into my ideal view of what a SO should be, or I just continue sexual contact in the knowledge that I will never pursue anything more. This second option comes to pass mostly when I immediately know that the girl is crazy and doesn't warrant emotional attachment. The first however, has been occurring more and more often as I have aged.

I have noticed a similar dynamic in the way I formulate friendships. Either they fit into what I think they should be and I become best friends with them, or they don't fit and are either regulated to acquaintance status or are discarded all together.

Basically my main issue is this, how can I best reconcile my desire for a relationship with my inability to accept anyone who doesn't fit into what purpose they should play in my life without compromising my rigid, and often life saving system of ideals?

I know its vain to look at others solely based on what they can do for you, and I hate that I do it, but so far I haven't had too much luck with, or incentive to change my ways.

Any thoughts or perspectives would be welcome! Thanks for listening.

Wow. You and my ENTJ female friend are living parallel lives!

I think you shouldn't have to compromise your shared sense of ideals. Absolutely not. However, let me give you an example of my ENTJ friend:

Ok. There's this guy she was acquaintances with. He's a very good guy. You can tell. However, he was married and cheated on his wife. They were high school sweethearts and honestly, I've met his wife and she was one of the coldest women I've met. This is known. Now, what he did was wrong. No doubt. But I think you can tell someone's character and I don't think he's some womanizer cheater. I'm pretty good judge of character and I got the impression that it was an all around bad situation and he didn't know how to get out of it and made a bad choice.

Anyway, they get along great. Great physical relationship too. So, I asked her if she'd eve date this guy because I think he's a good guy. Well, she says, "I could never date someone who cheated on their spouse. You made a promise to someone, walked down the aisle and then cheated? How can I ever trust someone like that?"

Ok. Fair enough. But I know my ENTJ friend has cheated on a relationship in her past too. This is where I think she would do well to judge subjectively in a situation instead of painting everyone with the same brush. Also, look at your own behavior. If someone was watching this ENTJ they might think it was a bit hypocritical to not apply the rules to themselves. When I brought up the fact that she in fact cheated herself she said, "That's different. We weren't married." To me that's splitting hairs. But whatever. If you're doing this kind of thing, it could also mean that you're just not ready for a relationship.

I don't know. But here's my advice. Be a little more subjective. Keep your guard up but give yourself and the other person a little more time to express who they are before YOU decide who they are

 

[Salt n' pepper]

For me what works is not really counting relationships as being part of me, so I didnt take an active part into trying to form it into my ideal relationship, and things tend to work out.

I think things start to take a turn for the worst when I start to care about the relationship.

WTF is wrong with ENTJs? What you said is the story of my life. As soon as I care, I fuck it up. I'm a mess! Some things I do subconsciously, some things I know I'm doing but I have no control over them - and I end up feeling completely wrong. I can't ever just go with the flow and enjoy the moment when I'm with someone I care about! I have goals, visions, standards that I push towards and live up to. Usually, they are pretty unrealistic and not always fair. When I don't care, when I have written that person off as "won't work" - that relationship usually takes care of itself just fine. It's like as soon as I know I care about someone, I know I'm fucked and I run. Cause I know I'll end up being the one that gets hurt, by myself and my own stupid standards.

EDIT: At the moment, I'm where htb stands. I've decided I won't be successful in love. And even if I do get success in love, I know I'm gonna fail sooner or later, cause naturally, I want to be successful in my work life too. And I've never, never, had a relationship or a partner that has accepted my work ethics. So I'm pretty much doomed. Unless I meet another ENTJ with the same high standards as mine and won't mind me working a lot. I want it all, and I know I can't have it, so I'm gonna focus my attention on achievements. Cause when I put my all into my work, it always pays off.

EDIT 2: You know what it is? It's like I'm in constant competition with myself when I'm in a relationship. Trying to please myself, thinking I was pleasing him, cause I had projected my own standards onto him. I remember, when my last relationship ended - although I loved him like madness, I was relieved that I could finally take a breath.

 

[murkrow]

Hoof, egg, fucked.

 

[tinkerbell]

Guys

Thought I'd chuck this in - I really don't think it's an ENTJ issue, but an NT issue... it's just worst for ENTJ - who are more structured than other in the criteria...

On the MBTI bit of the site I ran a poll last weekend on testing T ness (NT's that is).

Jennifer gave a great sound bite.....

"well, like I said, my INSTINCTIVE response is to dump.
Why invest in something doomed to fail? It doesn't make sense to me.

The point I raised here is something I learned within the last two years of my life, though, and I'm forty now. ... and I thought it worth mentioning just to challenge the question."

I'd say there is no such thing as Mr's or Miss Perfect and their parents haven't been born yet. Have standards for long term relationships/perminant relationships but don't depreive yourself of emotional company in favour of an ideal.

It's important to develop your F abilities.

 

[Salt n' pepper]

It's important to develop your F abilities.

Lets say I do, what would be different?

 

[tinkerbell]

Lets say I do, what would be different?

Ok you are a work goddess, if you allow your F to flourish you get to take things in your stride at work than you would normally do (get stressed by situations).

You'll learn a variety of ways to navagate through people issues because you are engaging in relating to a SO. Being able to work with people in any feild is important, having a relationship helps you grow that side of you. NT's can be unempathetic... at it's more extreme if you allow an imbalance to develope you can end up developing personality disorders and a variety of different issue.

You also have intimate company and less periods of being on your own learning bad habits

What you loose is some of your time to pet hobbies.

Snuggling is good even if you are an NT

Not getting your own way all the time - a good thing to get to grips with.



An example of how this can work in practice... my boss (ENTJ) hired a guy who I thought would be awful (I was leaving it was no big deal to me). I teased him about it - he said he thought he wouldn't be his favorite member of staff but he needed to learn to be more tollerant - ie is the person anoying or are you unadapatable/intollerent of others...

As it was - I was kind of right, he really isn't fitting in so I hear (but the intention o growing personal accpetance of more people was good I thought). Which I can say I spotted within 5 minutes of talking to him. But the point is developing tollerances to help you deal with a variety of people rather than perfect people.... not many people fit well with NT's so getting along is a good thing to tackle before you get bad habits...

ENTJs can be very dissmissive of people and having an improved F would help be less dissmissive.

Keirsey goes on about ENTJ's needing to have someone to balance their work eithic - drag them out for some degree of normal life.... which is also true I think

Sorry this feels a bit of a long rambling response/probably too much detail

 

[Venom]

WTF is wrong with ENTJs? What you said is the story of my life. As soon as I care, I fuck it up. I'm a mess!

EDIT: At the moment, I'm where htb stands. I've decided I won't be successful in love. And even if I do get success in love, I know I'm gonna fail sooner or later, cause naturally, I want to be successful in my work life too. And I've never, never, had a relationship or a partner that has accepted my work ethics. So I'm pretty much doomed. Unless I meet another ENTJ with the same high standards as mine and won't mind me working a lot.

AH! creepiest thread of the year! this has to be the most specific overlap of a type group Ive ever seen! we are all even using the same phrases!

my adopted solution: make a shit load of money until some ISJF suddenly realizes she HAS to have me...

...sadly its...the only way.

 

[FDG]

That's a stupid plan. I've had 3 ISFJ girlfriends in my life so far (and the one I'm with right now, I've been for 3 years), without having much money. They never complained about that (I'm 23, and still in college, thus not expected to be rich. Maybe that plays a part, but I doubt it). Sure, I'm not poor and I can afford to bring them out for dinner and/or travel, but that's far from being filthy rich.

If you try to attract gold-diggers, you will always live with the doubt about their intentions, which on the long run means absolutely certain divorce.

 

[Venom]

That's a stupid plan. I've had 3 ISFJ girlfriends in my life so far (and the one I'm with right now, I've been for 3 years), without having much money. They never complained about that (I'm 23, and still in college, thus not expected to be rich. Maybe that plays a part, but I doubt it). Sure, I'm not poor and I can afford to bring them out for dinner and/or travel, but that's far from being filthy rich.

If you try to attract gold-diggers, you will always live with the doubt about their intentions, which on the long run means absolutely certain divorce.

well mr ESTP--I mean ENTJ newwink, what better solution do you propose? As you can see from this thread, ENTJs dont really do the conventional way of romantic success. I need a better solution rather than a simple cheap shot at mine :steam:

 

[FDG]

Just ask her out and it'll work out from that? Easier done than written. I've never seen an ISFJ complaining if you can't go out b/c you have to work. If anything, they find it somehow admirable.

 

[Venom]

Just ask her out and it'll work out from that? Easier done than written. I've never seen an ISFJ complaining if you can't go out b/c you have to work. If anything, they find it somehow admirable.

thats assuming we ENTJs have agreeable ISFJs to woo. It seems that every ENTJ here except you was not designed for love :steam:. Thats why i had to insert the "buy" and ISFJ line. Its not that im scared to ask a girl out (ok thats only partially true), its that literally I have no other options.

Im also considering an INFJ, INTP, or INFP slave in addition to ISFJ slaves.

 

[FDG]

C'mon now, the world is chock-full of ISFJs. I can't really understand what it means "not designed for love" - that's mostly some overthinking stuff, if you find a girl you like and you're happy when you're toghether, that's enough, no need for deep psychological complexities if you're not tailored for them (and I'm not, for example, so I have to try to avoid that).

BTW, I have 4 ENTJ friends that have an ISFJ girlfriend. To me, this topic seems more an exception to the rule than the reverse.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

Someone who values me as a person in my own right, rather than an addition to their lives when they need companionship. I wonder if some of these considerations are things that can change, or if they are just the flip sides to the wonderful qualities tha ENTJs possess. In my experience, trying to bring up these issues results in complaints of oversensitivity or nitpicking and I hate to make a person feel that way.

What you wrote resonated with me - I have the threat (negative possibility) of considering life from my own perspective, and others as additions. I still think the best situation to strive for is something where both person's wants are being taken in. It might be that the other doesn't plan and execute as much of external things as the other, but their wills and wants are valuable nevertheless. It might be unreasonable to expect that people of different extraversion would have the same amount stuff to do and talk about. My ideal of ENTJ in this scenario would involve the ENTJ appreciating the other person's life with their goals valuable in their own right. At least, that is my gold standard. A standard I might fall short of, sometimes.

 

[tinkerbell]

thats assuming we ENTJs have agreeable ISFJs to woo. It seems that every ENTJ here except you was not designed for love :steam:. Thats why i had to insert the "buy" and ISFJ line. Its not that im scared to ask a girl out (ok thats only partially true), its that literally I have no other options.

Im also considering an INFJ, INTP, or INFP slave in addition to ISFJ slaves.

Guys

That is so sad...and not nessesarily true... yes it's hard but hey you lot are still out there - thinking of this stuff...

1. Why would you go out with an ISFJ - try N types it's easier on you....

2. I'm begning to be aware of the Idlyic thinkg..... NF's are pretty idealistic, but NT's are really, really idealistic.

Relationships are all about compormise, learnign to be flexible to deal with others foybles - try dating people who don't tick all your boxes but say the top 3 or 4 and see how it goes.

 

[Salt n' pepper]

BTW, I have 4 ENTJ friends that have an ISFJ girlfriend. To me, this topic seems more an exception to the rule than the reverse.

I dunno about that. Seems like a lot of ENTJs struggle with the balance of either all in and overdoing it, or all out and dismiss people before they even given them a chance to "prove themselves". I do that all the time. I'm very quick to value their existence in my life.

Basically I get the sense that it's all because of our high and rarely met standards and expectations. At least that's my problem. When someone meets my idea of "perfect" (for lack of a better word) I basically go into hunting-mode and so the race begins. I go into full speed, with the car still in a low gear and eventually the whole thing breaks down and I end up scaring them away, pushing too hard too fast. I'm too much in a hurry to "get there".

Then there's the work balance. Sheesh. I'll say this much, I expect a lot from my partner in that area. I expect them to understand a lot, and I expect them to be very patient. If the tables were turned, I'd expect the same thing from myself. Which becomes a double edge sword, cause unless my partner thinks like I do, they'll still feel unloved.

I either need someone submissive, that won't say boh, or someone similar-minded that understands.

I've only met one person in my 23 years of life that's even come close to "perfect" and I think that's the only time I've felt love, at least I felt very committed to him. But I made him feel pressured to love me more. I made him feel like he had to live up to standards that I had set up for the relationship. I made him feel like he was the worse part of our relationship, cause I kept trying to top myself and he couldn't keep up. I think I had a pretty clear vision of where I wanted this thing to go, and I was unable to see or enjoy the moment. Anyway, there are the things he told me.

After my last relationship, I've written off relationships and men. Not cause I'm bitter, it just took too much energy and focus and it's not worth it in the end cause everything ends.

And someone said they were gonna make an INTP their slave. How you can possibly think that, I'll never know. In two words, you can't. They will flip that shit back to you, so fast - you don't know what hit ya.

 

[Salt n' pepper]

1. Why would you go out with an ISFJ - try N types it's easier on you....

2. I'm begning to be aware of the Idlyic thinkg..... NF's are pretty idealistic, but NT's are really, really idealistic.

Tink, I think you're on to something. I get the sense, after reading a lot about NT's in love, they are even more idealistic than NFs. But in a very different way. Not what I'd call the general idea of idealism, and maybe that's why, they are so hard to live up to. ?