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[NT] NT Leadership

substitute

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As an ENTJ-influenced ENTP who finds himself in charge of lots of people quite often along with his ENTJ colleagues, we often seem to find ourselves being put up against the wall and shot by the 'nice squad' for daring to think that, as the boss, it might just be part of our job to tell people to do things.

Ha! No, no, no, what were we thinking! We have to ASK people, of course! I mean, what kind of moron thinks that just because he has a billion things to coordinate and dozens of deadlines, and just because he has a load of underlings who seem to prefer to scratch their arses and play WoW all day while people are waiting for them to communicate something, that he has a right to occasionally give the staff a gentle, yet well-deserved bollocking without them bursting into tears and quitting?

And what, I mean what people, kind of leader can REALLY function in an environment where people are constantly threatening to quit over the omission of a 'please' or 'thank you'?

Trouble is that leadership requires Te, and Te and democracy just don't get along. They're mutually exclusive, IMO. But it seems every damn office has to be a democratic commune these days ffs...

Can people please tell me just exactly how they expect a guy to get anything done whilst constantly stopping to consult everyone as to their job satisfaction, whether they feel they have 'ownership' of the projects they're involved in, and when you're not allowed to simply take it as read that something being part of someone's job description means they're sorta duty bound to do it, without you having to consult them to see if they mind every time before you tell them to do it?
 

substitute

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OK so this was part rant about my pointlessly crap underlings, but also largely part genuine desire for discussion as to differing expectations of leaders and preferences for styles of leadership, both from those who lead and those who work under them.

(thank you, please thankyou, if you'd be so kind... heh)
 

ygolo

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Not sure what part to respond to, so I can do a partial counter-rant.

[counter-rant]
Leaders are evil by the position they are placed in. They have to prove themselves otherwise in each decision they make.

Why do I say leaders are evil? It is because they think of human beings in terms of that are de-humanizing (how many "heads" to we have to cut? It's time to trim the "fat", etc.)

They are willing to sacrifice what their underlings values just to accomplish a mission or objective.

Underling: I need a couple of days off to help my brother move. My parents are too old to help him.
Leader: I need to think about it, we have <some inevitable, usually meaningless, deadline> coming up, not sure I can give up the "man-power" (yet another de-humanizing term)

In modern times, leaders have to convince not command. Keep in mind that the same employee who is a slacker and does the minimum to get by in your organization, may have been a top performer in another, and may again be a top performer in another to come.

Individuals have varying career goals. If their current job is impeding those goals more than they are enhancing them, they will move their efforts elsewhere. Hobbies, school, and if things get bad, a side-business, a second job, or a high-effort job hunt. If they're openly threatening to quit, then their current jobs are at odds with their career goals (whatever they may be).

It is tit-for-tat. You work for them as much as they work for you. No matter what the title is. If you suck at removing obstacles from their ability to do their job, you are unlikely to be respected as a boss, since, in their eyes, you are incompetent at your job.

[/counter-rant]
 

substitute

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Not sure what part to respond to, so I can do a partial counter-rant.

Okay... the second post was the main point actually lol but this is still good...

They are willing to sacrifice what their underlings values just to accomplish a mission or objective.

But what the underlings fail to understand is that this mission/objective is the maintenance and advancement of the company on which they all rely for their jobs and their wages, and if they have to stop to take account of every single person on an individual level all the time, the business cannot function properly or compete with others. Worst case scenario: the pub where everyone's happy and everyone loves the landlord and all the staff are appreciated and well paid and given compassionate leave and stuff all the time - but it closes down after a year because they're just not turning enough profit to cover overheads. Then all those happy employees become unhappy unemployed.

Underling: I need a couple of days off to help my brother move. My parents are too old to help him.
Leader: I need to think about it, we have <some inevitable, usually meaningless, deadline> coming up, not sure I can give up the "man-power" (yet another de-humanizing term)

Don't they realise that when they keep taking time off for lame reasons, it means that the bosses are a) less inclined to believe them when it's actually a real reason and b) it means someone else has to do the work they were supposed to do, which, if everyone's allowed to behave this way, results in chaos and the few people left being completely overworked.

In modern times, leaders have to convince not command. Keep in mind that the same employee who is a slacker and does the minimum to get by in your organization, may have been a top performer in another, and may again be a top performer in another to come.

Granted. But the ones I'm talking about above have never been great performers in anything, and I took them on to give them a break because nobody else would!

As for their career goals - if they can find anything better that'll have them, I'll pay their fucking dowry.... lol See, this is where philanthropy gets you.

It is tit-for-tat. You work for them as much as they work for you.

Yes... yet strangely, the angle that I'm actually WORKING FOR THEM, that is, that the job I'm trying to do is what their jobs hinge on, and that when they don't do their jobs (without which I can't do mine) they're shooting themselves in the foot as much as they are 'defying' me - seems to pass them by.

If you suck at removing obstacles from their ability to do their job, you are unlikely to be respected as a boss, since, in their eyes, you are incompetent at your job.

[/counter-rant]

It's actually them putting obstacles in front of my ability to do my job. The only obstacle to them doing their job is that they don't actually understand that working means doing it when you don't feel like it as well as when you do, and waiting until break time before 'nipping out' for a doughnut. And then thinking they have a right to not be criticized for it.

EDIT - oh yeah and plus, I don't see it as anyone else's responsibility to deal with my mental 'obstacles' but mine. When the only obstacle is their laziness, I fail to see how it's my responsibility to see that it's removed; it's a personality flaw, it's for them to deal with and overcome.

Ah fuck it, I'm firing them. All of them. Bastards.
 

INTJMom

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I haven't had that many bosses, but I've had 2 nice bosses I enjoyed working for.
One was an ENFJ, and the other was an ISFJ.
Both of them cared about me and made me feel important and valuable.
Most importantly, they didn't ridicule me or make me feel bad when I made a mistake.

I will have a part time job next year, and the manager is definitely a T. He's young and says things he shouldn't, but I'm going to take it in stride because I know he can't help himself. I'm sure he's doing the best he can.

I was in a group led by an ENTJ once. I had a lot of respect for him. I liked him, but he was intimidating.

I know as a leader, I used to drive people as hard as I drive myself until I learned I'm not supposed to do that. People do appreciate it if you can be gracious.
 
Last edited:

creativeRhino

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substitute -

EDIT - oh yeah and plus, I don't see it as anyone else's responsibility to deal with my mental 'obstacles' but mine. When the only obstacle is their laziness, I fail to see how it's my responsibility to see that it's removed; it's a personality flaw, it's for them to deal with and overcome.

Ah fuck it, I'm firing them. All of them. Bastards.

I can relate to the last line - but in my current circumstances it just doesn't work....

Oh, I can soooooooooo relate. In my various work roles I've felt the same way many times. Now as a student again I am dealing with the FP types who don't want to do anything that doesn't feel right or to be rushed when they find something they "feel is right" - and we have to do team projects.

They don't want to own their own inability to choose under pressure and to act on something just because it needs to be done. They say "I work best under pressure at the last minute".

Yet I've still gotta deal with them in the team projects. "Taking charge" doesn't work, nor does influencing strategies that appeal to the intellect.

I recently discovered a wicked little trick that may transport to other circumstances if somebody has a pet project or role (or their ego is highly attached to some status that comes from being responsible).

One of my team mates didn't come up with a design for something. She'd opted to do the design because she "wanted to" and she got the main voice in the design because of that. So, all I did was draw up something that was quite different (in strategically chosen ways) from what she came up with.... and said "Oh, well seeing we are running out of time we can do this, of course, you'll still get the main credit - but we need to move along."

I normally don't like to manipulate - but seeing her reaction AND speed of response was quite impressive. Job done! It is now going to be part of my arsenal....

But with a big team of "losers" (ie those who self sabotage) it gets harder - it is a culture of what is acceptable that rules. One big US company I worked for said that in the dot-com era, rather than trying to make our company go "dot com", it would have been better to set up a new company and cherry pick the right staff from the old one and outside to do away with the traditional culture that didn't welcome the "new ways".
 

Park

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I recently had an interesting debate with Fineline who wrote a pretty cool post. If you havn't allready, and you feel you'r in over your head, perhaps you should consider taking a leadership course.

In a company, the overall goal is to make money but it's interesting how Fs and Ts get from A to B as leaders.
The line of reasoning of a T will often be: If we make lots of money, everybody will be happy.
The line of reasoning for an F will often be: If everybody is happy, we'll make lots of money.

Both arguments are perfectly valid and both have their strengths and weaknesses. Yet, eventhough I'm a T, the F line of reasoning makes most sense to me as a leader.
 

Maverick

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As an ENTJ-influenced ENTP who finds himself in charge of lots of people quite often along with his ENTJ colleagues, we often seem to find ourselves being put up against the wall and shot by the 'nice squad' for daring to think that, as the boss, it might just be part of our job to tell people to do things.

Ha! No, no, no, what were we thinking! We have to ASK people, of course! I mean, what kind of moron thinks that just because he has a billion things to coordinate and dozens of deadlines, and just because he has a load of underlings who seem to prefer to scratch their arses and play WoW all day while people are waiting for them to communicate something, that he has a right to occasionally give the staff a gentle, yet well-deserved bollocking without them bursting into tears and quitting?

And what, I mean what people, kind of leader can REALLY function in an environment where people are constantly threatening to quit over the omission of a 'please' or 'thank you'?

Trouble is that leadership requires Te, and Te and democracy just don't get along. They're mutually exclusive, IMO. But it seems every damn office has to be a democratic commune these days ffs...

Can people please tell me just exactly how they expect a guy to get anything done whilst constantly stopping to consult everyone as to their job satisfaction, whether they feel they have 'ownership' of the projects they're involved in, and when you're not allowed to simply take it as read that something being part of someone's job description means they're sorta duty bound to do it, without you having to consult them to see if they mind every time before you tell them to do it?

Oh yeah... Excellent post.

This has been bothering me for a while too. My reasoning being "How can the ENTJ still be considered *the* leader type today when it's dominant function, Te, does not work well in a democratic environment?". Basically, in order for the ENTJ to be a good leader, s/he has to indulge in the least favorite function of all for this type... Extraverted Feeling. Using it gives incredible amounts of stress and is draining. It is exhausting to communicate in such a way. Watching what I say and censoring my thoughts is the least enjoyable part of work. It's put me off interacting with many people because I find them too insecure, self-conscious and defensive.

I think nowadays people are allowed to be so touchy it's ridiculous. It's amazing how people get uptight and angry at some things. Everything in organizations these days is being geared towards manipulating others or "How to get others to do things for you while they feel happy about it". Then they get surprised that people become cynical and distrustful of management when they realize the BS they're being fed. At least, with the straight talking bosses, you know where you stand.

You can only afford to use full blown Te and get away with it is if you're the Big Boss. The problem is Te doesn't help you in making friends. Te only works well when you have power. Maybe we're better suited for the military. But the problem is that while NT's would probably make great generals, they make pathetic soldiers, so it's real tough to get there.
 

substitute

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I recently had an interesting debate with Fineline who wrote a pretty cool post. If you havn't allready, and you feel you'r in over your head, perhaps you should consider taking a leadership course.

Thanks, I'll check that out. It's not me though, who's in over their head - I've 14 years of leadership experience and running businesses that I own, very successfully and with very few hiccups or spats with staff. I've been called a great boss by a lot of people and had people pestering me for jobs after they've done some voluntary stuff, because they just like working with me.

The problem is more that certain staff are in over their heads - not because I put them there, but because they insisted on putting themselves there, and they're too over sensitive and emotionally fragile to be able to admit it and either ask for help or let someone else take over. And they don't tell anyone this situation is going on - not because I'm not approachable (I'm the one everyone approaches with messages for the ENTJ precisely because they see me as approachable and he's not), but because their pride and ego are in the way.

In a company, the overall goal is to make money but it's interesting how Fs and Ts get from A to B as leaders.
The line of reasoning of a T will often be: If we make lots of money, everybody will be happy.
The line of reasoning for an F will often be: If everybody is happy, we'll make lots of money.

Not this company - it's a charitable organisation. The goal is to help people. People can't be helped if the organisation falls apart because certain people aren't doing their jobs.

My hole that I pick in that F line of reasoning is that in order to make everyone happy, you have to organise your priorities in such a way that means no money gets made, and in the meantime while you're waiting for everyone to decide they're happy, the company goes under due to lack of funds. And then when you try to get funds, you can't get any because nobody will invest, seeing your company now as slow and inefficient.

Besides which, staff these days seem to have extremely unreaslistic expectations of how 'happy' they have a right to be before they should have to do any work. But none of these things applies to the leaders - we have to just work our nuts off whether we like it or not, while they're supposed to be allowed an afternoon off because they're a bit out of sorts after they realised their credit card was maxed out, or because something X said made them feel "a bit tearful". No matter how 'tearful' or out of sorts I might feel, I have to just plough the fuck ahead and put it all aside.

I dunno, I just don't see how business can function like that. Whatever happened to leaving your shit at the door and getting on with your work? Especially in a charitable organisation where everyone who is there has CHOSEN to be there and professes to believe in the work and the project. It's not as if we're dealing with a bunch of school leavers who had a limited range of options for entry level jobs. We're talking here about seasoned, highly qualified professionals who could take any job they want.

Oh yeah... Excellent post.

Somehow, I had a feeling you'd sympathise ;)

I think it's one of those things where, because of the nature of hierarchies, obviously those who are leaders are in the minority, with few who understand or sympathise with the pressures they face. And part of the problem is, IMO, precisely the fact that we're not allowed to use words like 'hierarchy' any more, and have to pretend like every board meeting is some kind of hippie circle time.

I just don't get it. When I've worked under people I've been profoundly respectful of the wheels of hierarchy and chain of command, and the importance of respecting it and stuff. And if an ENTP can be with Si as my inferior function, I fail to see why others can't be as well!!

You can only afford to use full blown Te and get away with it is if you're the Big Boss. The problem is Te doesn't help you in making friends.

Yes, it means you have to maintain a certain level of distance from the staff and not try to make friends with them. Sorta like Captain Picard does. The minute you start going to their poker games and stuff like that, they begin to see you in more personal terms, and therefore take the things you say in a professional context, more personally. And that's where the troubles begin...
 

substitute

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by the way I realise I might've caused some confusion by mentioning employees who would be lucky to get any other job, and then also talking about seasoned professionals - just to clarify, these are two separate sets of people and they're both giving me grief!!

I've decided to fire the noobs and have already written the letters of doom and verbally given one of them their notice in person. The pro's I'm going to give one more chance, but if they play up I shall ditch them too. I was running the show with just one other colleague, quite happily, for several months before I took on these other people - the noobs purely out of philanthropic kindness and the pro's in the mistaken belief that they'd help the place run more smoothly.

If I end up losing them all, things might actually improve. Perhaps when I point that out to the pro's, they might realise that i'm not dealing with them for my own damn benefit. In the end I can't afford to keep risking letting down the vulnerable people who rely on our service, just to humour the egos of people who could go elsewhere if that's what they want.

The double standard is just unacceptable. If I were to "just forget" or "have too many personal problems" to sort out the wages one week, they'd all soon be lining up to tell me I should take care of my responsibilities when others are relying on me. Yet when their laziness literally meant that my wages were cut - since theirs were fixed salaries and what I got to live on was whatever was left of the takings once their wages and the overheads were taken out - well, that was just tough shit for me wasn't it?
 

proteanmix

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As an ENTJ-influenced ENTP who finds himself in charge of lots of people quite often along with his ENTJ colleagues, we often seem to find ourselves being put up against the wall and shot by the 'nice squad' for daring to think that, as the boss, it might just be part of our job to tell people to do things.

Ha! No, no, no, what were we thinking! We have to ASK people, of course! I mean, what kind of moron thinks that just because he has a billion things to coordinate and dozens of deadlines, and just because he has a load of underlings who seem to prefer to scratch their arses and play WoW all day while people are waiting for them to communicate something, that he has a right to occasionally give the staff a gentle, yet well-deserved bollocking without them bursting into tears and quitting?

And what, I mean what people, kind of leader can REALLY function in an environment where people are constantly threatening to quit over the omission of a 'please' or 'thank you'?

Trouble is that leadership requires Te, and Te and democracy just don't get along. They're mutually exclusive, IMO. But it seems every damn office has to be a democratic commune these days ffs...

Can people please tell me just exactly how they expect a guy to get anything done whilst constantly stopping to consult everyone as to their job satisfaction, whether they feel they have 'ownership' of the projects they're involved in, and when you're not allowed to simply take it as read that something being part of someone's job description means they're sorta duty bound to do it, without you having to consult them to see if they mind every time before you tell them to do it?

In hardcore Te-lead environments, people tend to experience burnout because of their relentless Te overseers (this is from experience). I've noticed in these environments people are afraid to take time off, are stressed out, don't feel comfortable criticizing The Management, and cutthroat competitiveness is encouraged as a means to success. Wow, that sounds like most of the American workforce.

Examples include, people coming in when they're sick spreading their pestilence to others because their NTJ boss came in to work a when he had the flu himself to finalize projects and he fully expects you to do the same thing, or coming to work following after his father's funeral, OR when another coworker suddenly dies of a heart attack telling his subordinates that it happened two days ago and they need to start refocusing (!!!), ignoring/unaware of the interpersonal conflicts between employees which contributes to lagging morale, not taking into consideration the mental health of employees (sometimes people just want to take a day off, no they're not sick, they just want to enjoy the weather or hang out with their kids), and a myriad of others.

When employees are asked about the direction of the business, they begin to take ownership and feel more responsible for and loyal towards their employer. Why is ownership important to people? Well, 1) they don't feel like the cog in the wheel they really are because they're been given a measure of control in the decision-making process, 2) leadership is transparent and this may assure them that no shady dealings are happening at the top, 3) sometimes people just like to vent and voice their opinions because they feel powerless over their lives. You can get fired without two weeks notice, lose your health insurance, be laid off or outsourced, strike because the union says so, so many things are out of workers control so what's so hard about soliciting feedback? Considering that most of the American workforce are SJs who value security and belonging, and another large chunk are SPs who value freedom, which having a steady income provides both of, I'm not very surprised that the NT (esp. NTJ) is meet with resistance.

Go look at Fortune's Best Companies to Work For. They're the type of businesses that provide on site day care or don't start threatening a woman that she's going to lose her job if she wants to stay with her newborn for more than 12 weeks, let's employees chose their health insurance provides, has flex work schedules or telecommuting, gives employees at least two weeks vacation each year including holidays, frequent company outings (picnics, luncheons, games, etc.), salary increases or bonuses, have tuition reimbursement if employees want to increase their skill sets, encourages room for growth, employees don't feel like they'll be fired at the drop of a hat, and basically taking into consideration THE HUMAN ELEMENT. It's possible for a business to actually be productive, make profit, and run efficiently and still treat their employees with respect and not as batteries.

From Fortune magazine:

Best benefits
Health care
Fourteen companies on this year's list pay 100% of their employees' health-care premiums.

Child care
Almost one-third of the Best Companies (33) offer an onsite child-care center. Here are the 5 with the least expensive, average monthly rates
.
Work-life balance
The top 10 Best Companies where employees feel "encouraged to balance their work and personal life."

Telecommuting
Of the 79 Best Companies that allow employees to telecommute or work at home at least 20% of the time, these five have the highest percentage of telecommuters.

Sabbaticals
25 companies on this year's list offer fully paid sabbaticals.

Unusual perks
These seven companies found unusual ways to keep their workers happy. Yes, we're jealous.
 

Maverick

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In hardcore Te-lead environments, people tend to experience burnout because of their relentless Te overseers (this is from experience). I've noticed in these environments people are afraid to take time off, are stressed out, don't feel comfortable criticizing The Management, and cutthroat competitiveness is encouraged as a means to success. Wow, that sounds like most of the American workforce.

Examples include, people coming in when they're sick spreading their pestilence to others because their NTJ boss came in to work a when he had the flu himself to finalize projects and he fully expects you to do the same thing, or coming to work following after his father's funeral, OR when another coworker suddenly dies of a heart attack telling his subordinates that it happened two days ago and they need to start refocusing (!!!), ignoring/unaware of the interpersonal conflicts between employees which contributes to lagging morale, not taking into consideration the mental health of employees (sometimes people just want to take a day off, no they're not sick, they just want to enjoy the weather or hang out with their kids), and a myriad of others.

When employees are asked about the direction of the business, they begin to take ownership and feel more responsible for and loyal towards their employer. Why is ownership important to people? Well, 1) they don't feel like the cog in the wheel they really are because they're been given a measure of control in the decision-making process, 2) leadership is transparent and this may assure them that no shady dealings are happening at the top, 3) sometimes people just like to vent and voice their opinions because they feel powerless over their lives. You can get fired without two weeks notice, lose your health insurance, be laid off or outsourced, strike because the union says so, so many things are out of workers control so what's so hard about soliciting feedback? Considering that most of the American workforce are SJs who value security and belonging, and another large chunk are SPs who value freedom, which having a steady income provides both of, I'm not very surprised that the NT (esp. NTJ) is meet with resistance.

Go look at Fortune's Best Companies to Work For. They're the type of businesses that provide on site day care or don't start threatening a woman that she's going to lose her job if she wants to stay with her newborn for more than 12 weeks, let's employees chose their health insurance provides, has flex work schedules or telecommuting, gives employees at least two weeks vacation each year including holidays, frequent company outings (picnics, luncheons, games, etc.), salary increases or bonuses, have tuition reimbursement if employees want to increase their skill sets, encourages room for growth, employees don't feel like they'll be fired at the drop of a hat, and basically taking into consideration THE HUMAN ELEMENT. It's possible for a business to actually be productive, make profit, and run efficiently and still treat their employees with respect and not as batteries.

From Fortune magazine:

Your perception of a Te environment is biased. Te is certainly not about being cut-throat. It's about truth and justice, which is just the opposite. Everyone gets what he deserves based on competence. The only cut-throats are the ones who lack moral integrity and that has nothing to do with psychological type. You are demonizing a function and it is a pity because that defeats the purpose of the MBTI.

What we need is leadership that rewards people based on their competence, results and enforces the same rules for everyone. We've got enough of the politically correct crap of catering to the feelings of employer A if you say you like red and he likes blue, who sucks up the best to the boss and who plays nice with who. While it's all good in ideal, practically speaking the "HUMAN ELEMENT" becomes a world of stinking interpersonal politics, where you have to watch for your every word and behavior and where people can't be themselves and have to conform to ridiculous social norms such as talking at 11am in front of the coffee machine when you should be working. We need to get out of a world where we blame others for giving their opinion and where we reinforce adults to continue behaving like kids that need to be babysitted or else they'll pull a temper tantrum if they don't get the "positivity" they think they deserve.

I've seen people-friendly environments filled with social workers and they were the worst in terms of interpersonal harassment. You think burnout happens the most in "Te" type companies... you should work in a hospital or in education. The levels of burnout there are much higher than in corporations and also the politics are far dirtier and cut-throat.
 

proteanmix

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Your perception of a Te environment is biased. Te is certainly not about being cut-throat. It's about truth and justice, which is just the opposite. Everyone gets what he deserves based on competence. The only cut-throats are the ones who lack moral integrity and that has nothing to do with psychological type. You are demonizing a function and it is a pity because that defeats the purpose of the MBTI.

Dude, didn't you just say something about fake Fe types? I'm not demonizing Te, I'm just stating unfortunate circumstances of bad Te. It's amazing to me how people think they can just bash Fe (and Si), and everyone jumps on the bandwagon with their horror stories. Let me add mine to the mythology. ;)

What we need is leadership that rewards people based on their competence, results and enforces the same rules for everyone.

I'm all for this. I agree with you. But you know this doesn't happen. Why isn't it happening?

While it's all good in ideal, practically speaking the "HUMAN ELEMENT" becomes a world of stinking interpersonal politics, where you have to watch for your every word and behavior and where people can't be themselves and have to conform to ridiculous social norms such as talking at 11am in front of the coffee machine when you should be working. We need to get out of a world where we blame others for giving their opinion and where we reinforce adults to continue behaving like kids that need to be babysitted or else they'll pull a temper tantrum if they don't get the "positivity" they think they deserve.

I don't deny that it's a slippery slope from respect for employees and employees milking the system because management is lax. Those environments are just as bad because there's no structure. It's amazing to me why I as a Fe dominant, don't really feel the need to conform to ridiculous social norms that I agree are a waste of time, yet I still manage not have people clamoring to put a knife between my ribs. You know what I do when I see people gathered around the coffeemaker in the morning? I :), wave, say good morning, and keep walking. That's it. It's not complicated! You know what I do when I don't want to have lunch with my coworkers? "Hey I think I'm going to have lunch at my cube today. :)" Not a problem. What happens when I don't feel like going to happy hour? "I'm feeling tired, I think I'm going to go home. :)" I'm convinced people build up resentment towards these "rituals" because they don't realize how unimportant they are. I think it's performance anxiety, which can he conquered with deep breathing and medication. :hug:

I've seen people-friendly environments filled with social workers and they were the worst in terms of interpersonal harassment. You think burnout happens the most in "Te" type companies... you should work in a hospital or in education. The levels of burnout there are much higher than in corporations and also the politics are far dirtier and cut-throat.

Hospitals, schools, and social workers are extremely high stress environments but it's not because of too little Te. The jobs are demanding because they have the most contact with people, exemplifying the complexity of the situation that office environments try to distill.
 

substitute

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In hardcore Te-lead environments, people tend to experience burnout because of their relentless Te overseers (this is from experience). I've noticed in these environments people are afraid to take time off, are stressed out, don't feel comfortable criticizing The Management, and cutthroat competitiveness is encouraged as a means to success.

Yeah I know what you mean, I've seen places where people are treated that way. However the case I was ranting about, the people in question have no excuse to feel that way and I know they don't feel that way.

But yeah, I get what you're saying and I sorta agree that it's kind of the only realistic choice, even though I hate it. It's just frustrating for me because I find it slightly retarded that someone likes and values the DELUSION that they MATTER, as if they simply can't handle the harsh reality that they're just there for the money, I only want them there for the money they make me, so if we cut the crap and just all get on with our jobs and seek our 'personal validation' in our PERSONAL worlds, we might be able to get something done!!

What we need is leadership that rewards people based on their competence, results and enforces the same rules for everyone. We've got enough of the politically correct crap of catering to the feelings of employer A if you say you like red and he likes blue, who sucks up the best to the boss and who plays nice with who. While it's all good in ideal, practically speaking the "HUMAN ELEMENT" becomes a world of stinking interpersonal politics, where you have to watch for your every word and behavior and where people can't be themselves and have to conform to ridiculous social norms such as talking at 11am in front of the coffee machine when you should be working. We need to get out of a world where we blame others for giving their opinion and where we reinforce adults to continue behaving like kids that need to be babysitted or else they'll pull a temper tantrum if they don't get the "positivity" they think they deserve.

:thumbup: OMG I fucking love ENTJ's! Did anyone get that part where I mentioned how much I love ENTJ's? :worthy: :wubbie:

Oh and by the way, my personal leadership style isn't hardcore Te at all. It's hardcore Ne - I'm very easy going and flexible as to who does what and when, and very accommodating. Sometimes a bit of Ti comes out when people ask for my opinions, but by far the majority of what people see function-wise from me is an overwhelming flurry of Ne.

But just occasionally, when people let me down and seriously piss me off, or when they're slacking and trying to weedle out with excuses, they see a bit of Te that I sorta 'borrow', and THAT is when they start whining like hell. In reality they'd been working under Te-generated plans and stuff the whole time (coming from my partner), only they were presented to them in the Ne-Ti way. I haven't found any great need to exercise F type stuff in the business environment with any but the most unreasonable and whiny employees - who haven't lasted long.

Basically, you shouldn't have to persuade someone to just do their job - that's what the salary is for. And you shouldn't have to bribe and reward someone simply to do what's no more than their duty. Now, if they go ABOVE their duty - fine, I'm the first one in with the medals and thankyou cakes. But I'll echo Maverick's thoughts on how people do often seem like a bunch of whining, spoilt children who believe they shouldn't have to refrain from hitting their sisters unless there's a bag of candy in it for them.
 

Park

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Thanks, I'll check that out. It's not me though, who's in over their head - I've 14 years of leadership experience and running businesses that I own, very successfully and with very few hiccups or spats with staff. I've been called a great boss by a lot of people and had people pestering me for jobs after they've done some voluntary stuff, because they just like working with me.

The problem is more that certain staff are in over their heads - not because I put them there, but because they insisted on putting themselves there, and they're too over sensitive and emotionally fragile to be able to admit it and either ask for help or let someone else take over. And they don't tell anyone this situation is going on - not because I'm not approachable (I'm the one everyone approaches with messages for the ENTJ precisely because they see me as approachable and he's not), but because their pride and ego are in the way.

Ah I see but if you've been running a company for 14 years you must know that by the end of the day, the problem you describe above falls back on the leadership - right? If the workload an employee takes on is more than the person can handle, the danger of errors caused stress or lack of carry though encreases. As leaders, we have the overall responsorbility when it comes to making sure our companies or organizations runs smoothly and a part of this job is stepping in if our employees displays a behaviour which can endanger our business.

Not this company - it's a charitable organisation. The goal is to help people. People can't be helped if the organisation falls apart because certain people aren't doing their jobs.

My point exactly!

My hole that I pick in that F line of reasoning is that in order to make everyone happy, you have to organise your priorities in such a way that means no money gets made, and in the meantime while you're waiting for everyone to decide they're happy, the company goes under due to lack of funds. And then when you try to get funds, you can't get any because nobody will invest, seeing your company now as slow and inefficient.

Oh yes, I've seen inefficient F dominated organizations where people lost focus of the part about earning money. Both lines or reasoning really do have their strengths and weaknesses. However, a focus on creating a healthy company culture where people thrive does not equal inefficiency. It's about making sure people deliver their best performance over a longer period of time (hiering and fiering people is a costly affair).

Besides which, staff these days seem to have extremely unreaslistic expectations of how 'happy' they have a right to be before they should have to do any work. But none of these things applies to the leaders - we have to just work our nuts off whether we like it or not, while they're supposed to be allowed an afternoon off because they're a bit out of sorts after they realised their credit card was maxed out, or because something X said made them feel "a bit tearful". No matter how 'tearful' or out of sorts I might feel, I have to just plough the fuck ahead and put it all aside.

Ofcourse, with leadership we obtain a larger power/influence (plus a higher salery) than our employees and with that comes a larger responsorbility.

I dunno, I just don't see how business can function like that. Whatever happened to leaving your shit at the door and getting on with your work? Especially in a charitable organisation where everyone who is there has CHOSEN to be there and professes to believe in the work and the project. It's not as if we're dealing with a bunch of school leavers who had a limited range of options for entry level jobs. We're talking here about seasoned, highly qualified professionals who could take any job they want.

Can function in what way?
 

Park

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In hardcore Te-lead environments, people tend to experience burnout because of their relentless Te overseers (this is from experience). I've noticed in these environments people are afraid to take time off, are stressed out, don't feel comfortable criticizing The Management, and cutthroat competitiveness is encouraged as a means to success. Wow, that sounds like most of the American workforce.

You seem to ascribe things into Te which aren't really there. It's ironic though that dominant Te's often place such little value in displaying Fe. About half of the working force are Fs (at least in Denmark)

Te: Contingency planning, scheduling, and quantifying utilize the process of extraverted Thinking. Extraverted Thinking helps us organize our environment and ideas through charts, tables, graphs, flow charts, outlines, and so on. At its most sophisticated, this process is about organizing and monitoring people and things to work efficiently and productively. Empirical thinking is at the core of extraverted Thinking when we challenge someone someone’s ideas based on the logic of the facts in front of us or lay out reasonable explanations for decisions or conclusions made, often trying to establish order in someone else’s thought process. In written or verbal communication, extraverted Thinking helps us easily follow someone else’s logic, sequence, or organization. It also helps us notice when something is missing, like when someone says he or she is going to talk about four topics and talks about only three. In general, it allows us to compartmentalize many aspects of our lives so we can do what is necessary to accomplish our objectives.
 

substitute

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As leaders, we have the overall responsorbility when it comes to making sure our companies or organizations runs smoothly and a part of this job is stepping in if our employees displays a behaviour which can endanger our business.

Yeah sure, I step in alright at these points - I give them a warning and then, if they do it again, fire them. My problem is when I give them a warning and instead of take it like a man (or whatever), they throw a hissy fit, burst into tears and threaten to quit if you don't apologise in front of everyone - for simply telling them off for not doing the job that THEY applied for, that THEY wanted and THEY get paid for.

However, a focus on creating a healthy company culture where people thrive does not equal inefficiency.

Agreed. But I think what a lot of people think about how much responsibility for this healthy culture rests on the boss to create, and how much on the employees themselves in a give-and-take fashion, is way out of line with reality.

It's about making sure people deliver their best performance over a longer period of time (hiering and fiering people is a costly affair).

It is? I'd hardly call the equivalent of US$10 for an advert in the local paper 'costly' :D And besides, there's never been a shortage yet when I've fired someone, of people behind them wanting to step into their place.

And btw, I've only fired 1 person in all these years and only 2 have quit - one because she emmigrated and the other because he was about to be sprung for trying to forge cheques. Apart from that, 6 of the people with me have been for years, 2 since the beginning (there were only 3 of us in the beginning), and are perfectly happy. Given that I so rarely have any trouble with staff, but yet have consistently had trouble with these three current individuals (and am not the only one), I'm afraid that this time it really is their fault and they've gotta go.

Sometimes I think people have to draw the line with how far you're going to keep saying everything's the boss' fault. Sometimes the boss can do everything in their power, everything they're supposed to do, and yet things still come falling down because of some useless minion that simply doesn't pull their weight and lets everyone else down.

Can function in what way?

With bosses having to be both businessmen and counsellors/morale officers.
 

FDG

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Te is about efficiency. Which means, either doing the most work in a given amount of time, or given an amount of work, finding the way to execute it in the shortest amount of time.

If work is not unlimited, by usage of Te people actually gain leisure time.
 

substitute

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Te is about efficiency. Which means, either doing the most work in a given amount of time, or given an amount of work, finding the way to execute it in the shortest amount of time.

If work is not unlimited, by usage of Te people actually gain leisure time.

That's what I don't get that other people don't get! lol

Dammit, where's the TRUST? Y'know, sometimes it's people who've been with me years, and they know that me and ENTJ over there together have never once led them astray, and yet still there doesn't seem to be an awful lot of simple trust that if they just bite their lips and do as they're fucking told, all will become clear and everyone will be better off. All the work will be done better, quicker, people will be paid more and have more time to chill out. But no, everyone wants to be a critic, everyone's gotta "contribute".

After all, I don't pay by the hour - I pay fixed salaries. My staff don't have contracted hours, they just have to get their work done, and as long as they get it done and I don't have any more for them, they can go home or anything they like. I'll even sign their little billet from the state welfare people to say they worked whatever hours they're supposed to for entitlement to state childcare, even if they only worked half that time in reality, I don't care, I'm not legalistic - I just want the work done. I'd say that was more than reasonable. So it really is in their interests to show a little respect to the Te and y'know, big it up a bit heheh, instead of always knocking it every time it means they have to - gasp! - grit their teeth to get through something less than ideal! (oh, the trauma!!)
 

Lookin4theBestNU

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I think it's truly amazing that NTs fail to see what as an NF I see as an extraordinarily simple equation: Low morale=low productivity=low bottom line.

It's bullshit to assume that F's do not see the bottom line. I know the goal and people are my tools to get there. Performance and effectiveness are primary goals even for someone Fe dominant like me. I take care of my tools even if it would be simpler to say "I need this and this done now...it's your job". I motivate people to work their asses off for less then $10 an hour every single day. It's amazing how easy it is to do and takes so little time. The funny thing is they are actually smiling (most of the time) while doing so. Fire everyone substitute, it's for the greater good.

Maverick said:
I've seen people-friendly environments filled with social workers and they were the worst in terms of interpersonal harassment. You think burnout happens the most in "Te" type companies... you should work in a hospital or in education. The levels of burnout there are much higher than in corporations and also the politics are far dirtier and cut-throat.
I worked for a company like this once too and it was horrible. Competency was not rewarded. You were at the whim of the social hierarchy. I have not returned to a 'helping' career since.
 
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