[NT] NTs being too critical.

[Jaguar]

What a strange thread.

 

[INA]

Jesus Christ you people take this shit too far. Honestly, there have only been a few posters that have actually DONE anything in regards to this topic, others have just provoked him and argued just to argue or nitpick when they KNEW the point he was getting at. "Lols he made a sweeping generalization let's jump on him!" Come on, the context was pretty obvious here, that it was just a T dominated classroom with an NT like atmosphere, there's no need for any of this.

Oh, care to name them?

Wait - I've little faith you would, but there's been help assuming they're NTs and help bundled with the point that they may not be NTs, but just brats. for example:

Maybe the ideas weren't very good to begin with and it doesn't take an NT specifically to call em out.
Questions and challenges about your thoughts force you to be more coherent and articulate and - dare I say it - more thoughtful.

Once he had hastily drawn his scapegoat, he wasted energy lambasting this creation, working himself up into a frenzy instead of stepping back to think:
1. hey, these guys are jerks, no NT ways about it. There's nothing "NT" about trashing a book you're studying without taking more than a cursory look at it, or lacking insight into the human mind :rolli:. And there's nothing NT about slinging racial slurs around. This is BS.
2. Maybe I should should prepare my thoughts so I can respond well to useful criticism. That way I can get better at this and perhaps make them think
3. Maybe the teacher needs to get in control of a class of rowdy, cocky teenagers who sideline discussion with useless criticism

What we have here is a case of misdirected anger

Seriously, that makes sense given supposed type distribution and, less so, the nature of the critique described, but I'm sure NTs don't have a lock on arrogance or a critical nature.

If the criticism is useless, chime in and say so, deliver it with that oh-so-diplomatic :rolli: NF flair: "that's kind of irrelevant to the interpretation," for example. They're giving it; they can take it, too. If the criticism is out of bounds the teacher needs to assert his/her authority and steer the discussion where it needs to go.

 

[BlackCat]

Oh, care to name them?

I don't feel like getting any offenses against me or getting on the level that the people in this thread are, and I'm sure you know who you are (whoever is reading this). But in regards to you InaF, I really didn't see anything constructive that you posted, you just seemed to have an overall negative intent in this thread.

Did you really not know what he was trying to imply (you as in, the reader)? He probably typed them as NT because there probably are some NTs in there, and there are those STJs that are excellent academically in the classroom that can appear NT.

Like you said before InaF, Nless NTs are funny.

 

[Usehername]

I don't know the MBTI ratios of the OP's class, but my AP English class was a few NFs/NTs/SJs, and a lot of SPs who shot their mouths off. IME ESxP from a "witty" high schooler can look like smartass NT, but there's little substance when they're motormouthing the whole class on a book they never even read.

 

[Haphazard]

You shouldn't, and I would question their assumptions immediately. If they are not willing to consider your arguments, then they are not worth any student's time. Isn't their purpose is to guide their students into understanding the subject? (Of course, some do not sufficiently fulfill this category.)

The point is that a lot of English teachers are spectacularly bad at considering that the literature they teach might not be held in such high esteem by everyone and fail to give adequate proof as to why it should be, and this makes students unhappy.

What I mean is that their complaints are probably knee-jerk responses to 'great literature' being crammed down their throats without explanation.

 

[INA]

I don't feel like getting any offenses against me or getting on the level that the people in this thread are, and I'm sure you know who you are (whoever is reading this)..

That or you're just a puddy cat

I But in regards to you InaF, I really didn't see anything constructive that you posted, you just seemed to have an overall negative intent in this thread..

negative intent = no coddling or free pass at stupid type-bashing?
Uh, see my last post above, much of which was accepted ONLY when the poster saying the same thing did not challenge his assumption that the class brats were NTs. How's the kid to learn to make more thoughtful statements and defend his position when he can't even learn to accept that his questionable typing was half-baked?! I see why he has trouble in class.

Did you really not know what he was trying to imply (you as in, the reader)? He probably typed them as NT because there probably are some NTs in there, and there are those STJs that are excellent academically in the classroom that can appear NT.

Well, captain obvious, I'm going out on a limb here to suggest this was plain to MOST (not all) but the OP.

Like you said before InaF, Nless NTs are funny.

Indeed they are! are you familiar with the concept of the loaded question?

 

[BlackCat]

Lol holy crap there are like 4 things going on at once in here.

 

[Jaguar]

^ No shit.

 

[SerengetiBetty]

let's not forget there's the possibility of the herd mentality that can happen in high school. some people want to fit in and if they notice a snarky vibe in their class, they'll want to imitate that vibe. no matter what, i'd take anything supposedly authoritative and definitive anyone that age says with a grain of salt.

half the time people say things to try and look cool and impress their peers, all the more reason for the OP to state his opinions in class

 

[Brendan]

The point is that a lot of English teachers are spectacularly bad at considering that the literature they teach might not be held in such high esteem by everyone and fail to give adequate proof as to why it should be, and this makes students unhappy.

What I mean is that their complaints are probably knee-jerk responses to 'great literature' being crammed down their throats without explanation.

Not saying I disagree with you here, but from the teachers perspective, how do you teach someone to appreciate a book like, for instance, Of Mice and Men or The Jungle when their life experience can be summed up in 12 grades? I think the teachers are doing exactly what they should be. Putting books in the hands of their students and saying "this is a masterpiece, read it." The understanding comes later in life.

That being said, I hated when teachers told me a boring book was a masterpiece.

 

[BlackCat]

Well since you posted at the same time I did I'll just make another post since another one will pop up most likely and it won't be a double post.

Fact: Captain obvious = Captain obvious.

Uh, see above, much of which was accepted ONLY when the poster saying the same thing did not challenge his assumption that the class brats were NTs. How's the kid to learn to make more thoughtful statements and defend his position when he can't even learn to accept that his questionable typing was half-baked?!

ENFPs learn in a positive and forgiving atmosphere I'd say. And I think he knew his typing was half baked and was venting.

Indeed they are! are you familiar with the concept of the loaded question?

You mean like that one? Lol.

Yeah to be honest I didn't read this whole thread, I see someone getting attacked for a point that wasn't well thought out in his head (I do this all the time so I can naturally empathize with that), this happens to me a lot, so I felt like I should defend.

Whatever. Lol. You guys have your fun.

 

[JocktheMotie]

let's not forget there's the possibility of the herd mentality that can happen in high school. some people want to fit in and if they notice a snarky vibe in their class, they'll want to imitate that vibe. no matter what, i'd take anything supposedly authoritative and definitive anyone that age says with a grain of salt.

half the time people say things to try and look cool and impress their peers, all the more reason for the OP to state his opinions in class

I would say that this is what is most likely happening.

 

[INA]

The point is that a lot of English teachers are spectacularly bad at considering that the literature they teach might not be held in such high esteem by everyone and fail to give adequate proof as to why it should be, and this makes students unhappy.

What I mean is that their complaints are probably knee-jerk responses to 'great literature' being crammed down their throats without explanation.

Great point. but it also seems to me that many kids have an unwarranted high opinion of their own "literary criticism" and dismissive attitude about things that don't immediately relate to them. It takes a skilled teacher to be able to cultivate the kind of insight to appreciate stuff that can otherwise seem dry.

Well, and some masterpieces are just overrated, IMHO.

 

[INA]

Well since you posted at the same time I did I'll just make another post since another one will pop up most likely and it won't be a double post.

Fact: Captain obvious = Captain obvious.



ENFPs learn in a positive and forgiving atmosphere I'd say. And I think he knew his typing was half baked and was venting.



You mean like that one? Lol.

Yeah to be honest I didn't read this whole thread, I see someone getting attacked for a point that wasn't well thought out in his head (I do this all the time so I can naturally empathize with that), this happens to me a lot, so I felt like I should defend.

Whatever. Lol. You guys have your fun.

D'awww aren't you sweet.

 

[Haphazard]

Not saying I disagree with you here, but from the teachers perspective, how do you teach someone to appreciate a book like, for instance, Of Mice and Men or The Jungle when their life experience can be summed up in 12 grades? I think the teachers are doing exactly what they should be. Putting books in the hands of their students and saying "this is a masterpiece, read it." The understanding comes later in life.

That being said, I hated when teachers told me a boring book was a masterpiece.

Isn't that kind of like setting a kid on a bike before they even get a trikie, though?

I mean even when we were reading an essay and I criticized the essayists use of "am/was", her explanation was that it was a casual essay. So? I still think it looks bad, even when I don't have the support that it's 'not professional.' She didn't take it. It was a difference in style, and the fact that it was used once at the beginning of the essay and never again makes it look off-balance to me.

In creative writing classes we've discussed that saying 'you just don't get it' after someone doesn't understand a work is a copout. Why does 'great literature' get a free pass? If we really are too ignorant to understand, why bother?

 

[Brendan]

Isn't that kind of like setting a kid on a bike before they even get a trikie, though?

I mean even when we were reading an essay and I criticized the essayists use of "am/was", her explanation was that it was a casual essay. So? I still think it looks bad, even when I don't have the support that it's 'not professional.' She didn't take it. It was a difference in style, and the fact that it was used once at the beginning of the essay and never again makes it look off-balance to me.

In creative writing classes we've discussed that saying 'you just don't get it' after someone doesn't understand a work is a copout. Why does 'great literature' get a free pass? If we really are too ignorant to understand, why bother?

I would question someone giving The Grapes of Wrath to a 6th grader. But these are 15-18 year olds. There on the cusp of their own great awakening. Maybe it would be better to study these in a collegiate setting, Idk I'm not an education expert, but we give it to them because even if they don't get it immediately, they're still ready for it.


Btw, was your teacher's issue that it was a casual essay, therefore taking apart the grammar wasn't what she was looking for?

I'm reading The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn and Twain's use of first person on top of writing in a southern accent causes me to sometimes ask, "Wait... What?" and reread a sentence a couple of times, and it annoys me, but I'm not reading a book on grammar or creative writing, I'm reading a piece of creative writing in its own right.

 

[Lethe]

The point is that a lot of English teachers are spectacularly bad at considering that the literature they teach might not be held in such high esteem by everyone and fail to give adequate proof as to why it should be, and this makes students unhappy.

What I mean is that their complaints are probably knee-jerk responses to 'great literature' being crammed down their throats without explanation.

This has not been my experience, though it does not deny yours or anyone else's. Perhaps it accurately describes their reactions -- regardless, our interpretation is at the mercy of the OP's views. I'd recommend them seeking out a teacher who invites such challenges.

Not saying I disagree with you here, but from the teachers perspective, how do you teach someone to appreciate a book like, for instance, Of Mice and Men or The Jungle when their life experience can be summed up in 12 grades? I think the teachers are doing exactly what they should be. Putting books in the hands of their students and saying "this is a masterpiece, read it." The understanding comes later in life.

That being said, I hated when teachers told me a boring book was a masterpiece.

The teachers should acknowledge that it will be impossible to get every student, stemming from diverse backgrounds and personalities, to appreciate a specific work of literature as a masterpiece. They can at least highlight the reasons as to why many would regard the novel as one. The rest is up to each student to determine for themselves.

 

[Orangey]

Isn't that kind of like setting a kid on a bike before they even get a trikie, though?

I mean even when we were reading an essay and I criticized the essayists use of "am/was", her explanation was that it was a casual essay. So? I still think it looks bad, even when I don't have the support that it's 'not professional.' She didn't take it. It was a difference in style, and the fact that it was used once at the beginning of the essay and never again makes it look off-balance to me.

In creative writing classes we've discussed that saying 'you just don't get it' after someone doesn't understand a work is a copout. Why does 'great literature' get a free pass? If we really are too ignorant to understand, why bother?

I don't understand what you're asking for. Do you want high school's to take into account the student's collective preferences (and their obviously very well cultivated literary tastes) when making curriculum decisions like what books to teach? Because I can see how that would be pretty disastrous. Or are you saying that teachers should have a more open attitude towards criticism aimed at the "great books?"

If it's the latter, I agree. During discussions, teachers should always be open to fielding such criticisms in a fair manner, and not simply relying on the "you're too stupid to understand" defense. That whole idea of levels of hermeneutic sophistication (with the teacher assumed to be at a higher level than you) pisses me off. If we're going to read a book, we should be able to discuss it like equals.

But that's a function of the teacher's attitude, not the books themselves. I wouldn't argue that some books shouldn't be taught, or that I shouldn't have had to read a book simply because I didn't like it or thought it was stupid. The only time I would think a book shouldn't be taught is when it's reading level is below what students are capable of handling, and when it could be replaced with literature that would be more useful in preparation for college (the "canon" stuff).

 

[Haphazard]

I would question someone giving The Grapes of Wrath to a 6th grader. But these are 15-18 year olds. There on the cusp of their own great awakening. Maybe it would be better to study these in a collegiate setting, Idk I'm not an education expert, but we give it to them because even if they don't get it immediately, they're still ready for it.


Btw, was your teacher's issue that it was a casual essay, therefore taking apart the grammar wasn't what she was looking for?

I'm reading The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn and Twain's use of first person on top of writing in a southern accent causes me to sometimes ask, "Wait... What?" and reread a sentence a couple of times, and it annoys me, but I'm not reading a book on grammar or creative writing, I'm reading a piece of creative writing in its own right.

What I meant about the "am/was" was that it takes the essay a step down from 'causal' and more come out 'something I jotted down on the back of a cocktail napkin'. It was especially strange because this was never used again and the "/" stuck out on the page like a sore thumb.

At least the Missouri dialect in The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn was consistent. You got it after a while -- a bit like A Clockwork Orange, only that one takes even longer.

 

[Haphazard]

I don't understand what you're asking for. Do you want high school's to take into account the student's collective preferences (and their obviously very well cultivated literary tastes) when making curriculum decisions like what books to teach? Because I can see how that would be pretty disastrous. Or are you saying that teachers should have a more open attitude towards criticism aimed at the "great books?"

If it's the latter, I agree. During discussions, teachers should always be open to fielding such criticisms in a fair manner, and not simply relying on the "you're too stupid to understand" defense. That whole idea of levels of hermeneutic sophistication (with the teacher assumed to be at a higher level than you) pisses me off. If we're going to read a book, we should be able to discuss it like equals.

But that's a function of the teacher's attitude, not the books themselves. I wouldn't argue that some books shouldn't be taught, or that I shouldn't have had to read a book simply because I didn't like it or thought it was stupid. The only time I would think a book shouldn't be taught is when it's reading level is below what students are capable of handling, and when it could be replaced with literature that would be more useful in preparation for college (the "canon" stuff).

I'm thinking that the teachers should be more open to criticisms of the literature they teach they teach, that students should have the right to disagree, and that teachers should realize that when they present 'great literature' like this they can't be surprised when there's a knee-jerk response like what the students here have.