[ENTP] You crazy ENTPs!

[stellar renegade]

I can't figure you out for the life of me!

Sorry, don't mean to be insulting. But this is actually a serious thread because I want some advice on how to deal with my ENTP best friend. The past year has been filled with arguments. I'm rather careless and flippant while he looks for reliability and logic and standing by one's word. Lately it's been alot better, though. It often depends on how his life has been going.

But I thought this exchange I just had with an ENTP on the Keirsey boards was enlightening (Inventor = ENTP):

So, do all Inventors seem to be pretty sensitive? My Inventor friend seems to be that way as well. The slightest offense to his ideas or person and he gets set off.

Yes. We are virtually all that sensitive because (1) we are extroverts who care a lot about what other people think of us and (2) we are never really certain of our own ideas and rely on external validation to feel confident. Many of us isolate ourselves from the world for this reason and are susceptible to social anxiety even on forums. It's something that I've struggled with my entire life.

WOW! I never would've guessed. That makes so much sense, though. Thank you, I really appreciate that little bit of info, it really helps me understand.

I mean, at times it just seems like he's frustrated that other people aren't being logical or reliable. But he's let me see his vulnerable side, which I know is a huge privilege. He also let me know by viewing a conversation of his with someone that his anger is a defense mechanism. Do you get angry alot, too?

He does seem susceptible to social anxiety on forums, even those he hasn't been on all that much. I am to a degree, but I always figure I can solve whatever bad image I have. He tends to give up and shut off. He also generalizes people into groups to protect himself from further hurt. It's no wonder he shuts himself in his room all the time and rarely comes out, and when he feels the slightest bit ignored he gets seemingly irrationally (at least to me) upset.

Also, about 1), he used to always say, "Does that make sense?" after every analysis of a situation he made, even if it seemed like a completely obvious conclusion. It kinda annoyed me to be honest, although I didn't say anything because it seemed like he was actually vulnerable to criticism and not just saying it. For some reason he doesn't say that anymore, but regardless he's always come off as very self-confident and rarely admits that he's wrong. If I ever prove him wrong about something (usually about details haha I have a hard time following his arguments alot) it's difficult for him to admit it.

I will say that he's the best at keeping his expression of emotions at bay considering how much emotion he has. Oftentimes I can tell he's outraged but he speaks in a logical almost monotone voice outlining solid points until the other person seems to become too unreasonable to him. It's admirable. At the same time, I can easily hear his frustration and anger and become disturbed by how many hang-ups he has.

These are the main reasons we haven't gotten along well this past year. We've had alot of good times, though, especially lately. Usually he gets into upset mode easier when things aren't going too well for him. His sensitivity wears on me, though. It's admittedly really hard for me to deal with.

So... any advice from the brilliant ENTP crowd out there for me?

Thanks very much in advance.

 

[stellar renegade]

Also... it was suggested by an INTJ friend that he may have borderline personality disorder. We read over the description and it sounded exactly like him, but when I used that as a defense in an argument, he got really upset, even eventually to the point of crying because, he said, he wanted to feel like his emotions were real and not just some chemical that had gone wrong in the brain.

I was at a loss, because personally if I had even the slightest hint that there was some chemical gone screwy in my brain I'd be breathing down the neck of whatever doctor could get me the pills. haha.

I kind of understand that, though, and it seems to go well with the Rational's need for a sense of competence. This theme was repeated again when he said though he was taking some of my St. John's Wort pills that he'd rather not have to rely on them. He actually used the same word competence though I hadn't discussed the concept with him. It was really interesting.

What do you guys think of that?

I have to say I really like you guys. You're very interesting peeps to me, and probably my favorite Rationals (the most fun and the funniest! probably even the funniest type!! ) but this is my only issue, if it's something that's inherent to the type.

Of course I know you're probably not all quite that reactive. He's had a very difficult life, that's a really big part of it as well.

 

[tinkerbell]

Also... it was suggested by an INTJ friend that he may have borderline personality disorder. We read over the description and it sounded exactly like him, but when I used that as a defense in an argument, he got really upset, even eventually to the point of crying because, he said, he wanted to feel like his emotions were real and not just some chemical that had gone wrong in the brain.

Ok BPD is almost always women, so your freind is very unlikely to have this. What type of friend are you to him when you are busy tell him he is ill? Do you have a medical background? The chances are you are just being disparaging of his character - which is a really lovely thing for a friend to do ... Ok i'm a women and don't treat my friends like that but you know... some people think that telling people they have a problem isn't a sign of thier own issues....

A lot of the ENTP's I've met have identification issues, they are trying to be lots of different things to lots of different people. they tend to have larger than life characters and highly adaptable so can portrait facets of themselves to the point that they may get confused over who they really are.

ENTP's are prone to being overly sensitive... they tend to be the sentitive cleaver souls are primary school so grow up knowing they are brighter than the average but likely to have some degree of personal vulnerability as knowing they are different from main stream SJ types. Sticking the knife in - not very pleasant. You're a pretty mainstream type, so fit in a lot better than he does.

ENTPs ideas can be pretty out-there and they may ahve in the past been critised for being too out there... Hence some of the sensitivity... His questionning of the solution is an attempt to gain real INSIGHT - the phrase "you can't see the wood for the trees" is the what he is likely to be challenging. Real insight lie in the Zen of things, things that are so obvious they are invisible, and therefore missing being exploited to their full potential. so don't critises if he is still questioning the obvious, the dpeth of that obvious is not seen by people.

He is likely to be very uncomfortable with emotions, lots of NT's are. This may be beause he feels things in a very profound way.

I'm not really getting what your issues are... You sound a pretty critical person..... You ought not to be trying to change him but make his life easier in ways if you are his friends..

 

[Fluffywolf]

He could also be an INTP trying to be extraverted, because he believes that is required of him in his life.

I don't think the general ENTP struggles with his/her extraverted-ness. Rather, it comes natural to them and sort of just blurts out. Struggling with extravertedness insinuates an introverted nature.

PS: I don't know him, just a thought.

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

But he's let me see his vulnerable side, which I know is a huge privilege.

If you see his vulnerabilities as defects, then you obviously don't appreciate the privilege as much as you say you do.

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

He could also be an INTP trying to be extraverted, because he believes that is required of him in his life.

I don't think the general ENTP struggles with his/her extraverted-ness. Rather, it comes natural to them and sort of just blurts out. Struggling with extravertedness insinuates an introverted nature.

PS: I don't know him, just a thought.

I didn't get the impression that he's struggling with extroversion. Extroverts are dependent on the external world ... it's what makes us extroverts. If he were an introvert, wouldn't it be easier for him to just not care?

 

[stellar renegade]

Ok BPD is almost always women, so your freind is very unlikely to have this. What type of friend are you to him when you are busy tell him he is ill? Do you have a medical background? The chances are you are just being disparaging of his character - which is a really lovely thing for a friend to do ... Ok i'm a women and don't treat my friends like that but you know... some people think that telling people they have a problem isn't a sign of thier own issues....

I didn't mean to offend him, I was just trying to say, "See, here's an example of why you might have this disorder," so he could step back and honestly reflect on it. But it only made it worse cuz he exploded and I realized either I was completely wrong or he really did need those meds.

I'm thinking now maybe I was just wrong.

A lot of the ENTP's I've met have identification issues, they are trying to be lots of different things to lots of different people. they tend to have larger than life characters and highly adaptable so can portrait facets of themselves to the point that they may get confused over who they really are.

He doesn't seem to do that, he focuses on being very honest and himself no matter what. The same person through and through.

ENTP's are prone to being overly sensitive... they tend to be the sentitive cleaver souls are primary school so grow up knowing they are brighter than the average but likely to have some degree of personal vulnerability as knowing they are different from main stream SJ types.

"primary school"? Yes, he's said that he always identified himself as a smarter person esp. since teachers identified him that way as a kid. I hadn't thought about being vulnerable because of not measuring up to the SJ standard. Makes sense, I guess.

Sticking the knife in - not very pleasant. You're a pretty mainstream type, so fit in a lot better than he does.

He seems to constantly be sticking the knife into me. I was only trying to give him some sort of reality check. I realize it was wrong now, of course. You don't have to tell me it isn't pleasant.

ENTPs ideas can be pretty out-there and they may ahve in the past been critised for being too out there... Hence some of the sensitivity...

He really enjoys his eccentricity and seems to be proud of it. Do you think he could be sensitive about it even if he doesn't seem to show it?

His questionning of the solution is an attempt to gain real INSIGHT - the phrase "you can't see the wood for the trees" is the what he is likely to be challenging. Real insight lie in the Zen of things, things that are so obvious they are invisible, and therefore missing being exploited to their full potential. so don't critises if he is still questioning the obvious, the dpeth of that obvious is not seen by people.

Ah, yeah. He gets frustrated when others don't see what's so obvious to him, especially me. I usually don't get what he's talking about. I focus on the details of a situation and wonder where he's coming from. That's one of the major difficulties. It makes him feel like I'm not listening to him sometimes, but it's just hard for me to follow.

He is likely to be very uncomfortable with emotions, lots of NT's are. This may be beause he feels things in a very profound way.

Yes. I appreciate that very much.

I'm not really getting what your issues are... You sound a pretty critical person..... You ought not to be trying to change him but make his life easier in ways if you are his friends..

I'm just asking for help, I'm not necessarily trying to change him, I'm just trying to figure out how to relate to him without conflict. I'm sincerely looking for help in how to be diplomatic and meet him halfway.

If you see his vulnerabilities as defects, then you obviously don't appreciate the privilege as much as you say you do.

Good point. His vulnerability is just an opportunity for a better relationship. That's brilliant, thank you.

But... how do I become vulnerable enough to relate? How do I find that same desire to be that intimate of a companion?

I'm honestly not trying to be difficult, this is obviously a difference in temperament...

thank you all for your help so far.

 

[Fluffywolf]

I didn't get the impression that he's struggling with extroversion. Extroverts are dependent on the external world ... it's what makes us extroverts. If he were an introvert, wouldn't it be easier for him to just not care?

Well, your arguement doesn't really work though.

An extrovert having or not having trouble with extroversion or an introverted caring or not caring about extroversian. It all comes down to what principles and values the person has. What he believes to be important and what not. And when someone doesn't have a good grip on this, they struggle.

 

[stellar renegade]

It's interesting, he's very expressive, not quiet at all, always doing something or talking. In the past at least he liked being in public places or making an impression on people. He seems more withdrawn now, though. More uncomfortable in real life, but just as expressive as before, and just as extroverted online for the most part. He's made statements in a transition period of his life that he was becoming more introverted, though, and saw the value of a few more intimate friends over a large crowd. At the same time he has a fairly wide circle of friends/acquaintances whom he seems really comfortable with, and has gotten hugely disappointed when almost none of them have kept up communication with him. His face lights up whenever an old friend/acquaintance from the Navy contacts him or responds to him.

 

[tinkerbell]

It's interesting, he's very expressive, not quiet at all, always doing something or talking. In the past at least he liked being in public places or making an impression on people. He seems more withdrawn now, though. More uncomfortable in real life, but just as expressive as before, and just as extroverted online for the most part. He's made statements in a transition period of his life that he was becoming more introverted, though, and saw the value of a few more intimate friends over a large crowd. At the same time he has a fairly wide circle of friends/acquaintances whom he seems really comfortable with, and has gotten hugely disappointed when almost none of them have kept up communication with him. His face lights up whenever an old friend/acquaintance from the Navy contacts him or responds to him.

I don't see what is the issue here... He may be mnoving from a far flung extrovert towards maturing and becoming less extrovert. As people move through life stages you do loose people some of which are less easy to give up. Most people who went to collage were freindly with loads of people, then 10 years later they are lucky if they see 5 of them each year... its life nothing strange in that....

Neither is there anything strange in feeling delight to hear from an old friend....

What is the issue here?

 

[Qre:us]

I can't figure you out for the life of me!

Are you mentally ill?

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Crazy ENTPs?

 

[stellar renegade]

I don't see what is the issue here... He may be mnoving from a far flung extrovert towards maturing and becoming less extrovert. As people move through life stages you do loose people some of which are less easy to give up. Most people who went to collage were freindly with loads of people, then 10 years later they are lucky if they see 5 of them each year... its life nothing strange in that....

Neither is there anything strange in feeling delight to hear from an old friend....

What is the issue here?

There isn't an issue, I was just letting fluffy know what was going on with my friend's extroversion vs. introversion and I thought it was interesting because it's not totally clear cut.

I get the impression you think I'm trying to make an issue out of everything about him. I'm not. It's just that our temperaments clash and I'm trying to figure out how to get along peacefully.

Are you mentally ill?

no...? Why do you ask that?

You guys' perceptions are usually over my head, and thus your reasoning and therefore where you are coming from are usually over my head, too. It's frustrating and I want to figure out a way to solve it.

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

Crazy ENTPs?

 

[tinkerbell]

Stellar,

You have the issue here, this guy sounds really normal. VERY different from you - absolutely, but he sound like other ENTPs... I loved the bit about not measuring up to SJ standards... Trust me, he looks down on SJ's as not being the smartest tools in the box... so he wont feel vulnerable about that... he probably feels vulnerable about being brighter than the average and conceptually different... I believe most NTs can take till their late 30 early 40s to grow into the capacity of their brain.

I do bleive you think you are trying to do him good... he is different from you, he doens't nessesarily have a big problem. However if you suggest that he has a problem he will consider it, and you may be damaging his sense of self and he may end uop getting a complex because you are saying he isn't like you.... (FYI I'd have been SO ticked off with you if you had suggested that to me). Imagine if I suggested your behaviour was mentally ill because it was different from mine...

Try reading Keirsey's ENTP and Rationalist section and then ponder on it for a long while...

I may start a thread on mental illenss.... It's come up about 4 times in 2 weeks - mainly people saying NT's are barking...

 

[stellar renegade]

Crazy ENTPs?

It was tongue-in-cheek, I hope nobody takes that seriously.

At least I'm sure he's an ENTP now. You guys are responding the exact same way as he would to what I'm saying.

I don't think I can keep doing this if you're going to keep assuming that I'm just trying to be difficult. I don't know how to make it any clearer that I'm trying to find some way to be diplomatic and workable.

 

[stellar renegade]

Stellar,

You have the issue here, this guy sounds really normal. VERY different from you - absolutely, but he sound like other ENTPs... I loved the bit about not measuring up to SJ standards... Trust me, he looks down on SJ's as not being the smartest tools in the box... so he wont feel vulnerable about that... he probably feels vulnerable about being brighter than the average and conceptually different... I believe most NTs can take till their late 30 early 40s to grow into the capacity of their brain.

I do bleive you think you are trying to do him good... he is different from you, he doens't nessesarily have a big problem. However if you suggest that he has a problem he will consider it, and you may be damaging his sense of self and he may end uop getting a complex because you are saying he isn't like you.... (FYI I'd have been SO ticked off with you if you had suggested that to me). Imagine if I suggested your behaviour was mentally ill because it was different from mine...

Try reading Keirsey's ENTP and Rationalist section and then ponder on it for a long while...

I may start a thread on mental illenss.... It's come up about 4 times in 2 weeks - mainly people saying NT's are barking...

When did I ever say he has a complex just because he's not like me? I don't understand where we transitioned from talking about his ability to fly off the handle to his not being "like me"...

I'll read Keirsey's descriptions a little more thoroughly.

I do wonder why I'm getting along so well with the ENTP on the Keirsey board but not with any ENTPs here on this subject...

 

[tinkerbell]

It was tongue-in-cheek, I hope nobody takes that seriously.

At least I'm sure he's an ENTP now. You guys are responding the exact same way as he would to what I'm saying.

I don't think I can keep doing this if you're going to keep assuming that I'm just trying to be difficult. I don't know how to make it any clearer that I'm trying to find some way to be diplomatic and workable.

Ok challegning your first point - having a laugh and saying to someone they are a bit nuts is one thing... suggesting that they have Borderline Personality Dissorder - is increadibly insulting....

Secondly you are coming across as trying to do good here so don't be too concerned about the reaction you are getting... As you can probably tell - I'm guessing quite a few ENTP's/NT's generally have people trying to FIX them...

Stick around and see what people say, it will be good for you....

You are getting on fine, you are just hearing what some other ENTPs are hearing when you talk about your friend...

PS - I'm not personally ticked off with you - I'm just trying to understand what your issues are...

 

[stellar renegade]

Ok challegning your first point - having a laugh and saying to someone they are a bit nuts is one thing... suggesting that they have Borderline Personality Dissorder - is increadibly insulting....

Yeah, I get that now.

Secondly you are coming across as trying to do good here so don't be too concerned about the reaction you are getting... As you can probably tell - I'm guessing quite a few ENTP's/NT's generally have people trying to FIX them...

Stick around and see what people say, it will be good for you....

You are getting on fine, you are just hearing what some other ENTPs are hearing when you talk about your friend...

Oh ok, thanks. I misinterpret the Rational's tendency to be blunt with being just plain angry. I always find a more subtle way to put things unless I'm driven to anger. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[The Decline]

He does seem susceptible to social anxiety on forums, even those he hasn't been on all that much. I am to a degree, but I always figure I can solve whatever bad image I have. He tends to give up and shut off. He also generalizes people into groups to protect himself from further hurt. It's no wonder he shuts himself in his room all the time and rarely comes out, and when he feels the slightest bit ignored he gets seemingly irrationally (at least to me) upset.

You're sure he's ENTP?