[MBTI General] NPD....

[tinkerbell]

Hi

Ne monster wanted to chat about NPD. Ne, my mental health experience is that I trained as a nurse, I'm RNMH qualified (Mental handicapped), haven't practiced in a long long time. Trainign included a fair bit of psyciatry and LOADs of behavioral modification - mainly skinner based.

I have some quite personal experiences with NPD, I dated a real live one - some ten years ago. I'm putting the lable on it, he didn't. This is very considered oppinion - he was in psycotherapy (his therapist felt he needed 10 years of treatment), so I'm pretty confident my labeling of what his condition was, isn't too far off the mark.

At the same time as I was seeing him, I also worked with another guy - who was odd (and yes he was an ENTP - I believe the bloke I was dating was an ExTx - more J I think). Anyways, I had an inkling back then that there was bigger issues going on with the guy I was working with. I didn't see him again for quite some time and I ran across him about 2 years ago - and he was doing some work.

By this point I was much more switched on about personality dissorders and I suspected he had issue similar to the guy I was seeing. so I read up extnsitvely on the subject (as much as I could do without forking out £100 for text book - psyc books can be so expensive). Anyway I looked at the condition not just the clinical features but at their victims too. Its a very sad condition.

I'm no expert on personality dissorders or psyciatric conditions but they all fall into the same basket of normal behavour at extreme excess.

Everyone had narcassistic tendancies - soap boxing yourself doens't = NPD make. Everyone has vanity, but NPD is not that. It's artfical vanity with sever self worth issues. It requires a proper clinical diagnosis....



I do think there are two different types (from personal views)..... The first is where the person has absorbed and is the condition, the second wears more masks, and is confused (the ENTP the latter).

Condition cause is unknown, but both of these guys had ikky relationships with their fathers... The first was in denial of paternity, the second I suspect had some form of domestic violence/agression. The second I might add probably was surrounded by family who said he was fabulous, talented and atractive, the first didnt' have that.... perhaps the reason for the masks is that they play different characters for different people.

A couple of key traits...

Naracassistic Rage = both did this the first had less of a handle on getting it out, the second boils when feeling vulnerable.

Non person = NPD sufferers don't see other people as people, they are puppets to be manipulated.

Lies = distort reality so they can function in it. The first guy, the one I was going out with, regularly broke down and admitting to lieing about everything. With NPD sufferers the good times are as much of a lie as the bad times.

It's said to be uncurable....but I don't beleive that. There is a couple in Oz who are living with changing his NDP, she is a natrual behaoral modifier and is clearly an NT, who is setting boundrys and fixing issues.

After my reading and observations of live ones (and it is a very rare condition) I have to say I'm HORRIFIED at how little we are talk by health practitioners to protect your emotional health.

Self esteme is equivelent to the skin ....physical barrier to ill health, SE is the mental barrier.

I came to the conclusion that there was three types of SE....

If you think about SE as being a drinking glass...

A normal healthy person - will have a gladd that is approximately filled with 60-70% self derived estime (possitive things they feel about themselves) and about 30% from the rest of the world.... If they are less healthy - they may only have a glass that is 90% full, but the proportions/balanced between self derived v's externally sourced is maintained.

An egostist, has about 90% of his glass filled with self derived self esteme..... 10% externally sourced. He is not NPD - typically I don't think, but I'm no expert.... Again is glass can be less full but the proportion is't changed.

The final issue with SE is when the glass is filled with mainly other peoples stuff. only about 10% of the SE is self derived and the rest is externally sourced. This makes the individual weak to the opinions of others, their physical and mental health depend on other peoples oppinions TOO much. Again thier glass can be less than full. This type of problem SE - is common esp amoung women - does my bum look big in this... but far from exclusive... I beleive almost all NPD sufferers have this issue, they struggle with a self derived self esteme....

In an NDP upbringing their self esteme was trashed, they were humiliated and they were made to feel unworthy, which they bought into... Hence they crave stability from other people saying theyare great.... they simply can not tollerate any discussion of their weakeness. They lie in order to big themselves up and to make themselve seem more important.

I don't beleive this is a strictly NT issue, but NT kids get theri self esteme in a different way from SJ's so perhaps this increases the frequency within NTs

Ok this is a start - this is my opinions, not nessesarily medical fact, although I have to say I'm horrified/pleased that there isn't much written on this. The horror is lack of information the pleased is that it's really rare.

The genral conclusion with NPD sufferers - LEAVE NO FUTURE CONTACT.... I have to say that is the only way I got out that relationship.....

PS Last Christmas I ran both these guys astrology charts side by side, they both had a similar astrological aspect... a T square with Mars/Saturn and moon..... at some poit I'll explain that, but as astrology goes, it's preatty damn tough....

 

[entropie]

NPD is the modern neonazi political party in Germany.

You think there maybe a connection here ?

 

[tinkerbell]

love the new avatar....

LOL very possibly.

I think it's one of those conditions that is bandied about/is fasionable...

 

[tinkerbell]

I think the easiest way to see how extreme an NPD sufferer actually is - in comparision to just people who are vain, self opinionated etc...

I'll post a few links and some quotes....

Quotes from our Members....
"I mourn the loss of what could have been and what should have been and the realization that he will never be any different. It's quite shocking to realize you wasted a whole year of love and time and money on someone who never really cared about you because they can't. It hurts! I hate it too. I'm still spending alot of time trying to understand and deal with the pain"


"Even now I find it difficult to fathom how you can give so much of yourself to a person and have them so totally wipe it all away as if it never happened with no remorse and go on their merry way leaving a path of destruction behind them."


"I didn't know another human being could be so cruel, manipulative, deceptive and twist reality so much and just walk away like nothing ever happened. It has left me questioning myself, who I am as a person, fundamental laws of reality and life itself."


"I'm mourning the myth of what I thought was reality. I wanted it to go back to like when we first met. He was so charming,humorous and complimentary---unlike any guy I ever met. He found me at a vulnerable time. My ego needed a boost. But even in the midst of this charm, there was also this gut feeling that something was not right..."


"I lived a decade with an N. Anything he did was only done if he reaped some recognition/attention reward for his own popularity with our friends. Behind closed doors the craziness continued until I thought I was going to loose my mind. He would twist and turn my words, his logic made no sense but that never stopped him. My point is some people are culls, dont bother trying to change them, dont change yourself to suit them. If you're in a relatioinship with one. GET OUT -- RUN HARD RUN FAST and never look back because that face you once cared for is only a farce, its a ploy to keep you as a plaything."


"Eventually, you will come to the painful realization that you were nothing more than an instrument of their self gratification, then we're as easily discarded as a piece of gum that's lost its flavor."


"You are dealing with a totally delusional human being, who builds his own fantasies about his reality and believes his own pathological lies. How can you possibly hope to have a healthy relationship with someone who bases his whole existence on deceit? IMPOSSIBLE! And don't kid yourself - They know exactly what they are doing - They prey, victimize, and devastate."


"I spent 7 years with my N, trying to recapture the first 3 months, and yet it’s only today that it occurred to me that the first 3 months were NOT who he was; the rest of the time was!"


"As human beings, we cannot grasp evil so cold. We just cannot imagine this whole part of our lives that was so important, was a big nothing. A big sick lie. When it's over, we will be forgotten like yesterdays trash."


"If you want genuine heartfelt advice from one of the many on this forum who have had their entire lives destroyed on every level - emotionally, financially, or psychologically: BE AFRAID, BE VERY AFRAID!!!! RUN LIKE HELL AND NEVER LOOK BACK!!!!"


"I had no idea there were others going through this very same thing."

"If some man were to say to your daughter: 'Here's the deal, sweetie. For several months or so, I'm going to pretend to be everything you ever wanted. I'll shower you with attention, affection and all manner of stuff to make you feel special. Then, once I know you're depending on me as your significant other, and have made a commitment, I'm going to quit pretending and be who I really am. I'm going to start treating you really badly, I'll say insensitive things, I'll lie, I'll cheat, I'll be really cruel, possibly humiliate you in public. Hey, I might even beat you. Your job will be to figure out what happened and do everything in your power to restore the relationship to what it was, until you either die, try to kill yourself, or collapse and get sent to hospital, which will be pretty funny because there's no chance whatsoever I'll ever pretend to be that 'nice guy' again - and by the way, it WAS a pretence. So what do you say, sweetie? Do we have a deal? Several years of hell in exchange for a few months of fantasy?'
If your daughter whipped out the pen to ink the deal, you'd smack her and say, 'What are you, NUTS? This guy's a lunatic!!!' Right? But that IS the deal. That is the contract. If that contract wouldn't be nearly good enough for your daughter, why would it be good enough for "



Narcissism Book of Quotes

 

[BlueScreen]

My thoughts on it are don't get too involved and you are safe. Once you are involved the best way is to offer nothing, because getting angry at them, trying to change them, or anything like that are forms of narcissistic supply. Just pack up and go. It seems totally insane, but is often the best choice.

I'm sort of against the popular labelling of people as NPD though. It seems it has seeped into popular culture more recently, and is often used by people who are emotionally hurt by others. Humans aren't a wealth of unlimited caring and sharing, they don't have to adapt for you, and all relationships get strained sometimes. If I had to live with someone who wanted it their way always and thought I was a pushover, I wouldn't really be showing much respect by the end of it. It is expected that people do what they can to fix it, but they don't always want to. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with them, just that you aren't really compatible.

My biggest annoyance with NPD sufferers was that I didn't feel socially safe. Friendships with others get distant. Others start seeing them more and you less. You all move into your own little bubbles, and have a close relationship only with them. You discuss the problems you are having with them. One thing I found though, is that real friendship is always stronger. So it actually works to be genuine, go about your thing, and ignore them. Don't weigh into the games, don't worry about the undermining that is happening behind your back. Don't give them any information to work on, so they have no clues about what to use for leverage. Anything that is not true and is not confirmed by reality eventually backfires on them. And that is probably the most important thing I have learnt about NPD. The person they do the most destruction to is themselves. They are playing the constant bluff and firing blanks. They under-perform at everything, they are tied to this constant addiction to narcissistic supply, in a way they are only anything in their heads, and that is the only place they are ever a real threat, unless they have violent tendencies too.

 

[tinkerbell]

My thoughts on it are don't get too involved and you are safe. Once you are involved the best way is to offer nothing, because getting angry at them, trying to change them, or anything like that are forms of narcissistic supply. Just pack up and go. It seems totally insane, but is often the best choice.

I'm sort of against the popular labelling of people as NPD though. It seems it has seeped into popular culture more recently, and is often used by people who are emotionally hurt by others. Humans aren't a wealth of unlimited caring and sharing, they don't have to adapt for you, and all relationships get strained sometimes.

My biggest annoyance with NPD sufferers was that I didn't feel socially safe. Friendships with others get distant. Others start seeing them more and you less. You all move into your own little bubbles, and have a close relationship only with them. You discuss the problems you are having with them. One thing I found though, is that real friendship is always stronger. So it actually works to be genuine, go about your thing, and ignore them. Don't weigh into the games, don't worry about the undermining that is happening behind your back. Don't give them any information to work on, so they have no clues about what to use for leverage. Anything that is not true and is not confirmed by reality eventually backfires on them. And that is probably the most important thing I have learnt about NPD. The person they do the most destruction to is themselves. They are playing the constant bluff and firing blanks. They under-perform at everything, they are tied to this constant addiction to narcissistic supply, in a way they are only anything in their heads, and that is the only place they are ever a real threat, unless they have violent tendencies too.

Hi

You sound like you have live experience, which I an relate too. I so agree on the pop culture of finger pointing/lablelling people.

I'm totally sure the guy I was seeing was one, but the ENTP was questionnable (even now), but I worked on the "tell him nothing", because then he couldn't use it.. funny because doing that ment he actually had to open up more to me than he would have other wise... very strange...

The socal isolation and the rules about who you can talk to about what drove me insane.....


Lis

 

[BlueScreen]

The social is the only one that is still a problem. Because I tend to keep a decent emotional distance from most people who are still linked closely to him. I just don't really want him messing around with much stuff, or knowing where to strike. There was some pretty crazy moves and attempts at it after I broke friendship off. Some totally shameless ones. ie. completely dumping the friendship group he had been developing and linking as closely into the one that someone I really liked was in instead. Actually trying to be as close as he could. I gave up on the liking and cut and ran. Figured it was more important.

 

[tinkerbell]

yes that all sounds typically, the whole move - leave no forwarding address. The trouble is they are monsters to get out your head... Less amo means they have less power....