[NT] NT and neutrality towards people

[substitute]

NT's don't tend to have as many feelings for most people they meet than non-NT's. This makes some people uneasy. If they are insecure, they mistake it for rejection.

Discuss.

Even the people I'd say I love the most, like my kids, my best friends, my brother etc, I still know that if they were to disappear and I never saw them again, so long as I knew they were safe and happy, I wouldn't be distraught and would be unlikely to miss them much.

It isn't that I don't love them or care... I'm not sure what it is. Maybe... I just don't need to 'own' them. You know? Like it feels to me sometimes when people tell me they're attached to me and I 'mean so much' to them, that they kind of think of me as a beloved piece of bric-a-brac that they want to maintain in the scenery of their mental garage. They don't want me going out in the garage sale... like they think of me as something they tentatively 'own'. I don't like that feeling.

I've totally lost count of the number of times that people have said to and of me that I'm their best friend, that I'm someone really special to them and they think of me as so close, like family etc etc, when I actually feel very little towards them. I think sometimes they mistake the things I do for being things done out of attachment to them, which were actually just done out of my own nature... things I'd do for anyone at all, maybe they wouldn't, so they assume I wouldn't either, and the fact that I did them for them must therefore mean that I care for them more than other people.

In other words, sometimes the 'symptoms' of love/attachment and Feeling can be confused with the symptoms of logic/reasonableness and Thinking. The same actions can come out of two very different thought processes. Like when I heard a friend complaining that he never got go to on vacation and loved camping but didn't know anyone else who wanted to go with him, and I figured at the time I didn't have a car and I wanted to go camping, so I just thought logically, if we cooperate we both get what we want and he's not bad company to boot. But he saw it as a 'gesture' of me wanting our friendship to be closer and all that sort of stuff that was nowhere in my mind at all. Which caused problems later cos he's gay... lol we live and learn eh?

 

[wildcat]

NT's don't tend to have as many feelings for most people they meet than non-NT's. This makes some people uneasy. If they are insecure, they mistake it for rejection.

Discuss.

I understand their resentment.

You lose clients.
So what?

Find other clients.

 

[Maverick]

In other words, sometimes the 'symptoms' of love/attachment and Feeling can be confused with the symptoms of logic/reasonableness and Thinking. The same actions can come out of two very different thought processes. Like when I heard a friend complaining that he never got go to on vacation and loved camping but didn't know anyone else who wanted to go with him, and I figured at the time I didn't have a car and I wanted to go camping, so I just thought logically, if we cooperate we both get what we want and he's not bad company to boot. But he saw it as a 'gesture' of me wanting our friendship to be closer and all that sort of stuff that was nowhere in my mind at all. Which caused problems later cos he's gay... lol we live and learn eh?

Don't tell me about it. I get exactly the same.

For example, I try to be objective about the criticism I provide to people. I had this great piece of work one day and told the person who did it "You did really good work on this. Congratulations". I met the person in a bar one night and he said "Hey, can I pay you a drink? It was really cool of you to say my work was good. But you didn't have to be so nice, honestly. Anyway, I always liked you and it's nice to discover a friend in you". To which I replied "If you think I'm nice then you lack objectivity about your own work and are under-estimating its quality. I am not nice, I say what I think, and your work was good so I happened to say something positive". The other person still did not believe me and thought I was being extra nice by saying that. For fuck's sake!

So? How can I know that people who do express emotions actually feel them? I can't, they could just be faking it. Even I have behaved as though I liked people I disliked because I didn't want to face the social consequences of being perceived by others to dislike this person. Expression doesn't prove anything. It's very possible that any emotion I perceive could be fake, or a reflection of my own. I just like to believe it isn't so.

Yes, exactly.

My point is, it seems to me they usually do express them in some way, it just isn't as direct as the way Feeling types do. For instance, they might try to help you understand something, or try harder to understand something you're explaining to them. The first few times, it might just be curiosity. But the more times they help you, the more interested they seem interested, the more likely it is that it might be due to an emotion towards you. You'll never know for certain, but it's easy to infer.

No, you never know and I think it's not easy to infer at all! The mistake comes from understanding others by believing they are like yourself and projecting how you would be in that situation. Fact is, you are not an NT so it would be very difficult to you to fully understand what is motivating them.

For example, I know I've consistently helped some people with technical problems and they thought I was doing it because I liked them, when in fact I did it because these problems were a mental challenge that I enjoyed.

This last explanation is something that the people could never have imagined because, for them, the problems were annoying and boring! So I had to be doing it because I liked them.

Even if they don't feel anything, they're certainly interesting to talk to, and offer a lot of potentially helpful advice and perspectives on things. Thinking about how they have no emotions would ruin that for me, and I see no reason to suffer from that awareness unnecessarily, especially if they can approximate the sort of responses I need to perceive well enough to satisfy my perceptions.

Of course they have emotions. They're human. But they are less likely to have strong likes/dislikes concerning people and are probably more neutral in their appraisal of others.

 

[Mycroft]

Speaking personally, I observe my perceptions of a person when I meet them the first time. I pay close attention to my iNtuition - it is seldom incorrect. My biggest problems in life have been when I have not paid attention to an 'inexplicably bad feeling' about somebody that I couldn't have explained. The other aspect is do we "speak the same language" - ie communicate well, have similar interests and approach to life. Of my small group of friends most are INTJ males, and one female.

I think we have feelings (gee, that is a real NT thing to say...) I do get passionate about things/issues/people. Geekishly so about issues/things. But when it comes to people I know I don't do the outward expression until I know them quite well. Yep, I've been called aloof, snobby or cold. But folks who take the time to get to know me know there is something much warmer under the surface. And those who know me well see my feelings in the subtle things like fleeting facial expressions/body language. NF/SF folks I know tend to wear their hearts on their sleeves and have their brains on "loud speaker".

I could shake your hand for this post.

 

[substitute]

For example, I try to be objective about the criticism I provide to people. I had this great piece of work one day and told the person who did it "You did really good work on this. Congratulations". I met the person in a bar one night and he said "Hey, can I pay you a drink? It was really cool of you to say my work was good. But you didn't have to be so nice, honestly. Anyway, I always liked you and it's nice to discover a friend in you". To which I replied "If you think I'm nice then you lack objectivity about your own work and are under-estimating its quality. I am not nice, I say what I think, and your work was good so I happened to say something positive". The other person still did not believe me and thought I was being extra nice by saying that. For fuck's sake!

*grrroooan* God yes, I know what you mean. One of the guys who works for me is like that, so I have to be reserved with compliments - if he shows me something he did and I think it's brilliant and say it's brilliant, he somehow manages, in his head, to turn "I like that painting, it's brilliant" into "I love you, you're my favourite person", which baffles me. I was talking about the PAINTING, not you, dumbass!!

It gets really stupid, like I find myself just saying "yeah I suppose it's not bad", and seeing the look on his face like he's disappointed and wanted a glowing compliment - which he deserved and I wanted to give him, but because of the way he is, don't feel 'safe' to give him otherwise next thing I know he'll be inviting himself to my house constantly and telling everyone we're best friends...

Then there's one of my old cleaning ladies. I'd get home from the office on a Friday afternoon and she'd be just finishing up cleaning my apartment, and because happy employees tend to be more productive, I'd make her a coffee and thank her for doing a good job while we sorted out her wages. While I was doing stuff, she'd start rambling on to me about her grandchildren and all the trials and tribulations in her family life, about which I was completely not in the slightest bit interested, but just to be polite I'd endure it and give the odd cursory nod and "uhuh" and "oh really?" even though I wasn't really listening. Then she'd go home, and that was that.

Then I decided to move house, and when I told her she was upset. I thought it was just over the fact that she wouldn't have the job any more, so I said to her I knew a friend who was looking for a cleaner and could sort her out with a job there. But she said it wasn't that, she didn't need the money, she did it to help me out because in the time she'd been working for me we'd "become close friends" and she was hurt that I'd "just up and move away" without telling her, and because she wouldn't see me any more. She said I was one of her best friends she'd ever had, and she didn't know anyone else who would listen to her problems and help her out like I did (I used to sometimes suggest solutions to the things she complained about, more out of a desire to make her shut up than anything else, but also just because I like solving problems).

To this day I don't think I'll ever understand that... I mean on the surface of it yes, I "listened" to her, and I paid her a weekly wage, but surely a fool could see that I didn't think of her as a friend? I never invited her over other than when she was working, and I never told her anything about myself, I was just cheerful and generally accommodating as I usually am - the relationship on my part was entirely professional, and yet she somehow managed to find a way of thinking that she was important enough to me on a personal level that I might not move to a new town on her account...??!

 

[Totenkindly]

Even the people I'd say I love the most, like my kids, my best friends, my brother etc, I still know that if they were to disappear and I never saw them again, so long as I knew they were safe and happy, I wouldn't be distraught and would be unlikely to miss them much.

Sigh. You have much cajones in saying this.

I thought I was very open about things (and I really am), but this is one truth about myself that I have never really admitted before and realized I was avoiding revealing, because it makes me sound like... well, sewer refuse sticking to the underside of a nice beaten pair of Timberland boots, if I have to pick a nice way to say it (or perhaps the pus that infects the mucus that cruds up the fungus that feeds on the pond scum)?

I do not understand how my concern and love can still be so detached from the physical presence of people. Sometimes I feel guilty about it -- because shouldn't I love them more, enough to die and rage and wail if they were absent permanently? -- but it is what it is.

I even found myself thinking it this morning, talking with my friend at our weekly breakfast meeting: If my life continues in the direction it is currently proceeding, there could easily be a time over the next year when (simply due to differences in belief and what's "healthiest"), we might not see each other afterwards.

And even while it hurts, I was finding myself being very much okay with the idea. (Because my concern and care for him is not based on the interaction with him, it is based on an internalized feeling and attitude of goodwill for him. ) And that feeling is how I play out with everyone, even those I am related to.

It is almost like I just have this "construct" of everyone I know within me, so that I am still carrying them with me no matter what happens; and so to me things do not change, regardless of the circumstances of the outer world.

But many "Feeling" types would probably not understand this or take offense to it in some way. I don't know whether they should or not. It is just how I am.

*grrroooan* God yes, I know what you mean. One of the guys who works for me is like that, so I have to be reserved with compliments - if he shows me something he did and I think it's brilliant and say it's brilliant, he somehow manages, in his head, to turn "I like that painting, it's brilliant" into "I love you, you're my favourite person", which baffles me. I was talking about the PAINTING, not you, dumbass!!

Exactly. I can think someone is a total jerk, and yet think what they have achieved/created is amazing. The art stands alone. (And vice versa. I can really like someone but think they are a terrible artist.) Where my feelings get involved is simply feeling awkward or bad if I am put in a situation where someone is expecting me to say something I do not really mean, just to spare their feelings. I don't enjoy crushing people, but I'm not going to lie either (which leaves ME feeling terrible and having lost my integrity).

Most people IRL enjoy compliments from me because they know that if I think something is not very good, I will just avoid talking about it, but if I praise something, it means I actually think it's very good.

 

[Mycroft]

Sigh. You have much cajones in saying this.

I thought I was very open about things (and I really am), but this is one truth about myself that I have never really admitted before and realized I was avoiding revealing, because it makes me sound like... well, sewer refuse sticking to the underside of a nice beaten pair of Timberland boots, if I have to pick a nice way to say it (or perhaps the pus that infects the mucus that cruds up the fungus that feeds on the pond scum)?

I do not understand how my concern and love can still be so detached from the physical presence of people. Sometimes I feel guilty about it -- because shouldn't I love them more, enough to die and rage and wail if they were absent permanently? -- but it is what it is.

I even found myself thinking it this morning, talking with my friend at our weekly breakfast meeting: If my life continues in the direction it is currently proceeding, there could easily be a time over the next year when (simply due to differences in belief and what's "healthiest"), we might not see each other afterwards.

And even while it hurts, I was finding myself being very much okay with the idea. (Because my concern and care for him is not based on the interaction with him, it is based on an internalized feeling and attitude of goodwill for him. ) And that feeling is how I play out with everyone, even those I am related to.

Death, parting; these things are a part of life. For those of us who don't live in the moment, there comes a time where we need to confront these truths and have a comprehensive mental construct to allow us to move forward. This time comes early for us. It's not that we don't care; it's just that we're prepared.

 

[substitute]

Death, parting; these things are a part of life. For those of us who don't live in the moment, there comes a time where we need to confront these truths and have a comprehensive mental construct to allow us to move forward. This time comes early for us. It's not that we don't care; it's just that we're prepared.

I think there's something in that. It definately ties in with my feelings (or lack thereof) when my dad died. Everyone kept telling me that my grief was 'delayed' and that sooner or later I'd start feeling things, but I still don't and I really can't imagine I ever will. It just wasn't really a big deal to me, in a way... I mean of course, in theory it's supposed to be a big deal when your father dies, but it's not like I wasn't expecting him to die sometime anyway, and especially since he was old and not too healthy, I knew it was coming by and by.

People tell me I'm in denial, but I find that quite insulting - it's quite simple to me: I've accepted it, plain and simple. Within 24 hours of getting the news, I'd completely accepted that he was gone, wasn't coming back, and all the sorrow in the world wouldn't bring him back or help anything, and besides, I didn't feel that much sorrow anyway since I hadn't seen him in years, precisely because I found life better without him around. I wasn't going to suddenly start pretending to be distraught over his death just because people might call me callous otherwise.

 

[Maverick]

To this day I don't think I'll ever understand that... I mean on the surface of it yes, I "listened" to her, and I paid her a weekly wage, but surely a fool could see that I didn't think of her as a friend? I never invited her over other than when she was working, and I never told her anything about myself, I was just cheerful and generally accommodating as I usually am - the relationship on my part was entirely professional, and yet she somehow managed to find a way of thinking that she was important enough to me on a personal level that I might not move to a new town on her account...??!

LOL I think these unrealistic beliefs that people have help them in being happier. Some people like to live in la-la land.

Human nature is so fascinating sometimes. People can become blinded by their beliefs.

For example, I slightly bumped into a car by accident one evening at 1:00 am. It was dark and I wasn't sure if there was any damage or not. So I left a note, as a matter of principle, on the windscreen. I didn't do this to be nice, I did it because it's the fair thing to do and I would expect someone else to do it for me. The owner of the car phoned me and couldn't believe it. He was astonished that someone would actually put a note and not just leave without saying anything. So he became very stressed over the phone and he asked "OK, what to you want from me?"

 

[Totenkindly]

For example, I slightly bumped into a car by accident one evening at 1:00 am. It was dark and I wasn't sure if there was any damage or not. So I left a note, as a matter of principle, on the windscreen. I didn't do this to be nice, I did it because it's the fair thing to do and I would expect someone else to do it for me. The owner of the car phoned me and couldn't believe it. He was astonished that someone would actually put a note and not just leave without saying anything. So he became very stressed over the phone and he asked "OK, what to you want from me?"

Oh gee, that's rich!

You're right -- it was a matter of principle, and then he's free to pursue matters as he wishes. You are just giving him options and retaining responsibility for your actions, but it's up to him to decide what happens next.

I think there's something in that. It definately ties in with my feelings (or lack thereof) when my dad died. Everyone kept telling me that my grief was 'delayed' and that sooner or later I'd start feeling things, but I still don't and I really can't imagine I ever will. It just wasn't really a big deal to me, in a way... I mean of course, in theory it's supposed to be a big deal when your father dies, but it's not like I wasn't expecting him to die sometime anyway, and especially since he was old and not too healthy, I knew it was coming by and by.

People tell me I'm in denial, but I find that quite insulting - it's quite simple to me: I've accepted it, plain and simple. Within 24 hours of getting the news, I'd completely accepted that he was gone, wasn't coming back, and all the sorrow in the world wouldn't bring him back or help anything, and besides, I didn't feel that much sorrow anyway since I hadn't seen him in years, precisely because I found life better without him around. I wasn't going to suddenly start pretending to be distraught over his death just because people might call me callous otherwise.

Uh huh. I remember our conversation about this when it happened, and what Mycroft suggests is often how it is with me as well.

I usually deal with things in my head long before they actually occur, and as you said, the practical realities of the death of your father was that not much in your life was actually changing because you had not been close.

To me, the real pain occurs usually just in the sheer finality of it: "Okay, I've now passed that milemarker and the option to talk to them/relate to them IS finally a done deal, and I no longer have that choice," and this can sometimes feel like a deprivation -- not the actual loss of the relationship itself but the future potential that has now been made impossible.

 

[Athenian200]

I think there's something in that. It definately ties in with my feelings (or lack thereof) when my dad died. Everyone kept telling me that my grief was 'delayed' and that sooner or later I'd start feeling things, but I still don't and I really can't imagine I ever will. It just wasn't really a big deal to me, in a way... I mean of course, in theory it's supposed to be a big deal when your father dies, but it's not like I wasn't expecting him to die sometime anyway, and especially since he was old and not too healthy, I knew it was coming by and by.

People tell me I'm in denial, but I find that quite insulting - it's quite simple to me: I've accepted it, plain and simple. Within 24 hours of getting the news, I'd completely accepted that he was gone, wasn't coming back, and all the sorrow in the world wouldn't bring him back or help anything, and besides, I didn't feel that much sorrow anyway since I hadn't seen him in years, precisely because I found life better without him around. I wasn't going to suddenly start pretending to be distraught over his death just because people might call me callous otherwise.

To offer an NF contrast:

Well, even I don't feel much if a distant relative or anyone I don't really know or care about very deeply dies. That's not abnormal. The difference is, I might act out a negative emotion, and try to look grudgingly accepting of the fact so that people wouldn't freak out as they did in your case, because I wouldn't want them to think less of me. I would feel a deep sense of loss if a person close to me died, and would come to always cherish their memory and past friendship, perhaps thinking of them periodically, wondering what they might say in a particular situation, remembering their previous ideas, opinions, and words. But I would probably keep on focusing on what I needed to do, and the people who were still here. After all, I know they wouldn't have wanted me to spend the rest of my life in sorrow over them, and that what matters and requires my attention at this point are the people I can still deal with, who are still part of my life. I might very well focus my attentions on comforting others.

 

[INTJMom]

Even the people I'd say I love the most, like my kids, my best friends, my brother etc, I still know that if they were to disappear and I never saw them again, so long as I knew they were safe and happy, I wouldn't be distraught and would be unlikely to miss them much.

Sigh. You have much cajones in saying this.....

I have been this way, too to a great extent, and it scared me.

I got the idea that I was getting better at bonding, when my cat (who we had only had for about 4 years) got sick and I had to take her to the vet.
For goodness' sake, I bawled my head off most of the way there!
I couldn't believe myself - all that over a cat!
But I was happy too, because bonding is hard for me.

I think I am more bonded to my family than I "think" I am.
My husband passed out at work a few years ago and the emergency room personnel called me to let me know.
He asked me if I wanted to speak to my husband, and I suddenly realized, Yes, that would give me great comfort. I NEED to speak to my husband, and hear his voice for myself, even though you told me he's okay.

Maybe our thinking doesn't allow us to feel the depth of our attachment?

 

[INTJMom]

*grrroooan* God yes, I know what you mean. One of the guys who works for me is like that, so I have to be reserved with compliments - if he shows me something he did and I think it's brilliant and say it's brilliant, he somehow manages, in his head, to turn "I like that painting, it's brilliant" into "I love you, you're my favourite person", which baffles me. I was talking about the PAINTING, not you...

What type does this?
Because I think I want to avoid making that mistake also.

 

[INTJMom]

...People tell me I'm in denial, but I find that quite insulting - it's quite simple to me: I've accepted it, plain and simple. ....

Since Acceptance is the goal of grieving, I would say you are right.

 

[Totenkindly]

I think I am more bonded to my family than I "think" I am. My husband passed out at work a few years ago and the emergency room personnel called me to let me know. He asked me if I wanted to speak to my husband, and I suddenly realized, Yes, that would give me great comfort. I NEED to speak to my husband, and hear his voice for myself, even though you told me he's okay. Maybe our thinking doesn't allow us to feel the depth of our attachment?

I do think that's possible.

I know I usually feel the indifference until something unexpected happens (as with your husband) and I need reassurance, or my family goes out and no one left a note, and suddenly I feel a bit empty and anxious and worry about them and just want to know what happened and if they're okay and so forth and feel much better when I hear them walk in the front door.

And I seem to be having more and more of those moments where intellectually I feel fine in a potentially stressful situation... but suddenly these emotions seem to just well up out of nowhere and threaten to swallow me whole, and find that I feel much better if I deal with them rather than ignoring them like before. (But it only happens when I am actually immersed in the situation, rather than just imagining it.)

 

[fiona]

Lots of stuff that resonates here. I have trouble bonding, and my brother (prob also INTJ like me) and I tacitly admit that if the other died we would go on without much grieving.

Going back to the original question, what hasn't come up is the way I feel when I meet someone - that I don't have the right to shove my feelings in their face. OK, so my instinct says not to trust them or that I don't like them...fine, but that doesn't give me the right to make that plain. If their behaviour subsequently proves me right, I might feel more comfortable with making my feelings clear, but until I have objective proof of what someone is like what right have I to alter my behaviour towards them?

I think this is where some of the more 'feeling' types bewilder me - they seem to believe they have a perfect right to go off at someone simply because they don't like the look of them, and then, having made a complete balls-up of the situation they tell a thinking type that they're cold and withdrawn.

We're neither - we're just waiting for proof!

 

[INTJMom]

I do think that's possible.

I know I usually feel the indifference until something unexpected happens (as with your husband) and I need reassurance, or my family goes out and no one left a note, and suddenly I feel a bit empty and anxious and worry about them and just want to know what happened and if they're okay and so forth and feel much better when I hear them walk in the front door.

And I seem to be having more and more of those moments where intellectually I feel fine in a potentially stressful situation... but suddenly these emotions seem to just well up out of nowhere and threaten to swallow me whole, and find that I feel much better if I deal with them rather than ignoring them like before. (But it only happens when I am actually immersed in the situation, rather than just imagining it.)

Thanks for validating my feelings.
I appreciate you.

 

[INTJMom]

Lots of stuff that resonates here. I have trouble bonding, and my brother (prob also INTJ like me) and I tacitly admit that if the other died we would go on without much grieving.

Going back to the original question, what hasn't come up is the way I feel when I meet someone - that I don't have the right to shove my feelings in their face. OK, so my instinct says not to trust them or that I don't like them...fine, but that doesn't give me the right to make that plain. If their behaviour subsequently proves me right, I might feel more comfortable with making my feelings clear, but until I have objective proof of what someone is like what right have I to alter my behaviour towards them?

I think this is where some of the more 'feeling' types bewilder me - they seem to believe they have a perfect right to go off at someone simply because they don't like the look of them, and then, having made a complete balls-up of the situation they tell a thinking type that they're cold and withdrawn.

We're neither - we're just waiting for proof!

I do that too every now and then where I just don't "like" somebody.
But I certainly would still be civil to them if that's what was required of me.
I wouldn't dare be mean and nasty to them for such a petty reason as not "liking" them.
That can be caused by something as basic as personality differences.
I'm with you.

 

[warick]

Even the people I'd say I love the most, like my kids, my best friends, my brother etc, I still know that if they were to disappear and I never saw them again, so long as I knew they were safe and happy, I wouldn't be distraught and would be unlikely to miss them much.

I agree with this completely. Occasionally when I come home and the house is empty, I don't know what to do, I'm not used to being home alone. I used to mistake that feeling for missing them, but then I later realized that it was because my routine was disrupted and I'm not used to having free time so I have to reacquaint myself with doing things alone.
I sometimes daydream, thinking "so if my whole family died, how long could I live off the life insurance if I quit my job". I calculated a way to keep myself unemployed for 20 years before I realized the implications of my musings. Somehow, this didn't really bother me.

 

[MX5]

I've lurked in this forum for several days now and pondered where I would jump in and contribute. This thread seems like as good a place as any as so much that has been said here strikes a chord with me.

My personal experience has been that I place people into two categories; those I care for and those I don't. For those that fall into the former category I tend to have deep and strong feelings for. I am not a demonstrative type, but I do let those people know that I will do (just about) anything for them. People that fall into the latter category I tend to treat as "appliances". That is, they are useful and necessary but I attach no emotional significance to them. That DOES NOT mean that there is no moral imperative to treat them with dignity and respect, but I don't necessarily like, or dislike them.

My particular issue is that