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[INTP] Helping a pessimistic and isolated immigrant INTP

Strawberrylover

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Jul 18, 2009
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101
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ENFP
I'd like to get some ideas on how to help this person.

The INTP in question is my father, who has been in the US for almost two decades now but who obviously hasn't adjusted very well.

My observations:

- He doesn't have any American friends.
- He's painfully shy and almost fearful of going out by himself or taking care of simple household errands.
- He has a bad attitude when it comes to learning about American culture and customs. When he's confronted with American culture through me, he usually rejects it and assumes an air of superiority.
- He spends every night on his computer reading Chinese internet forums. But he doesn't like China either and would never live there.
- His bedroom is like a cave. It stinks and he doesn't care about personal hygiene.

Basically, he's a nowhere man, neither here nor there. My father is highly intelligent, but the way he's going, I worry about his old age and how he'll be able to fend for himself if he's already so isolated in middle age.

On the Unhealthy INTP thread, SolitaryWalker's post jumped out at me as being particularly true of my father: "The [unhealthy] INTP does not fit in anywhere as he truly is good at nothing. All of his functions are defunct, including his dominant Introverted Thinking. ...

The unhealthy is characterized by a deep seated prejudice that most external world activities are not desirable, not by a mere prudent judgment that most things are not desirable."

NTs, in particular the INTPs on this board, how would you try to help him?
 

The Decline

(☞゚∀゚)☞
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
780
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?
Enneagram
5w4
Take him along to social interactions and try to enable his English language learning capabilities. Talk him up on what he's into. Share some interests that would resonate with him. He's got to get going. Just try to inject him with interesting things.
 

Willfrey

New member
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Nov 9, 2008
Messages
615
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IsTP
Find some sort of social function that would cater to his interests. For instance, if he was really into video games have him go to a LAN party or something. (just an example.)
 

Strawberrylover

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He's middle-aged. No LAN parties for him. lol!

I've tried to take him out to eat, but he's very resistant to that even when I say I'll pay. Same goes for movies, concerts, art galleries, etc.

The generation gap definitely gets in the way of my helping him too. I'm in my 20s. I don't take my dad along to parties.
 

Qre:us

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Nov 21, 2008
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4,890
Find community centers nearby that has meet-ups for like-minded folks like him - a cultural community center would aid in this greatly. In my community, there's pockets of places, like China Town, or, near our neighbourhood, at our community center's park, some meet to play backgammon and chess, etc.

Bring some aspects of the culture which he obviously still values (if not the issues with the politics of the country, etc) and place them on a platter within American life. And, slowly, lead the integration.
 

Strawberrylover

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Bring some aspects of the culture which he obviously still values (if not the issues with the politics of the country, etc) and place them on a platter within American life. And, slowly, lead the integration.

"Some aspects of the culture which he obviously still values"... hmm, this could be tough.

What do you mean by placing them on a platter within American life? He likes tea. Should I find an American store that sells great tea or something?

What I'm afraid might be true of him is that he never did develop his dominant thinking function very well. I think of all the BS that the Chinese government taught his generation and the lack of formal education he received -- as well as his truncated career in academia due to immigration -- and I wonder whether his thinking is faulty to begin with.
 

phthalocyanine

#005645
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
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679
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INFP
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sx
bring him somewhere that places little emphasis on language or speaking in general, but where a good number of people are still present .. perhaps an aquarium, public garden, or some other serene environment in which he can observe people and choose whether to interact with them or not. take it slow. he will appreciate your patience and will reject your efforts if they seem hassled. always make it clear that you are thinking of his well-being rather than your own in reaching out to him.


appeal to his sense of humor when he becomes too shy or pessimistic, and remind him that it serves a functional purpose to learn about the english language and american culture. remind him that he can pass on important information to a wider number of people if he speaks more than one language! most NTs will find merit there.. and remind him that he will have a lot more fun at museums and observatories when he can easily read the brouchures and informational placques.

i might also suggest that you try to minimize the extravagant and image-conscious aspects of our culture at first so as to ease his transition..no self respecting INTP is going to jump head first into ESFx culture without some finesse, after all. don't take him to a sporting event or concert to break the ice!

i wish you and your dad the best of luck!
 

nomadic

mountain surfing
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Messages
1,709
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enfp
Are your parents divorced?

Find him a nice white woman who will change him. Don't be resistant to America!
 

Qre:us

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Nov 21, 2008
Messages
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What I'm afraid might be true of him is that he never did develop his dominant thinking function very well. I think of all the BS that the Chinese government taught his generation and the lack of formal education he received -- as well as his truncated career in academia due to immigration -- and I wonder whether his thinking is faulty to begin with.

It's blanketed despair. It may be that he's feeling the brunt of his 'uselessness' (perceived only, of course) because this nation (USA) might not be willing to recognize his merit in academia like China did. The opportunities he was in the process of gaining, when in China, that got short-cutted due to immigration...there may be some resentment of USA due to that. Esp. cuz, he may have encountered...: yeah, for US standards, your 'academia' is not good enough. It's a slap in the face to one's pride, which may lead to despair. The subsequent strong-hold to refuse to change because the changers (US culture) cannot find merit in him, while realizing that it just makes him stagnant if such ideals stop him from joining the rat race (US society). It's a vicious mental cycle.

What do you mean by placing them on a platter within American life? He likes tea. Should I find an American store that sells great tea or something?

:laugh: A little more literal than my idea, but, sure, that's still worth a try. It can't harm any, right? I meant, showing him that the ties he values to his culture are not all gone and lost, and that, he's not alone, because there's others that share the sentiment like his (e.g., cultural community centers), WHILE living well in the USA. I.e., slowly begin to chip away at his association that USA cannot be a familiar territory (i.e. there are areas/pockets where USA can meet China and in, US soil, no less).

"Some aspects of the culture which he obviously still values"... hmm, this could be tough.

If you are willing to engage with your surly dad, and, bypass his surliness to what the man's ideas, dreams, hopes, etc. are, and, slowly get him to open up, it might not be as tough figuring out those cultural values, and, even, his interests.
 

professor goodstain

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Your OP is your perception of him. There is nothing wrong with him. If you are worried about this in his older age, don't. He will more than likely out live you. He doesn't like the politics of China but the culture he did enjoy maybe. He doesn't like the cultural politics of the US but the freedom he does enjoy maybe. His Ti is just fine. And who are you to draw conclusions about Ti. Perhaps it is you who is an unhealthy ENFP. With all of your expectations that someone should be so accepting of the decay and baggage our culture evolved, (i should write 'social culture') this may be very similar to threads that wonder why people ask "Why are you angry" or say "Smile!" or ask "are you Ok?" Get off his ass already. Let him enjoy his freedom of expression.
 

Alwar

The Architect
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Jun 19, 2009
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Is there a Chinese community nearby? Like a Chinatown?
 

Strawberrylover

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101
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It's blanketed despair. It may be that he's feeling the brunt of his 'uselessness' (perceived only, of course) because this nation (USA) might not be willing to recognize his merit in academia like China did. The opportunities he was in the process of gaining, when in China, that got short-cutted due to immigration...there may be some resentment of USA due to that. Esp. cuz, he may have encountered...: yeah, for US standards, your 'academia' is not good enough. It's a slap in the face to one's pride, which may lead to despair. The subsequent strong-hold to refuse to change because the changers (US culture) cannot find merit in him, while realizing that it just makes him stagnant if such ideals stop him from joining the rat race (US society). It's a vicious mental cycle.

This is exactly it.

So what you think is going on is: US not recognizing his credentials --> feelings of uselessness, despair and resentment --> refusing to change because the changers didn't accept him in the first place --> becoming stagnant --> US not recognizing his skills --> feelings of uselessness...

I guess my best hope of helping him would be stepping in mid-cycle at "refusing to change." Because I have assimilated into the US, I can show as his daughter that the "changers" can accept him.

There is no Chinatown nearby. We're in kind of a suburban area. There's definitely a Chinese community, but I just get frustrated even thinking of taking him to something because he's always expressed such disdain for China in general -- and not just the politics either, but also the way people think over there.

Background: His family were dissidents and he basically grew up being pummeled by other kids for being politically different. I'd hate my own country too if I had to deal with crap like that.

If you are willing to engage with your surly dad, and, bypass his surliness to what the man's ideas, dreams, hopes, etc. are, and, slowly get him to open up, it might not be as tough figuring out those cultural values, and, even, his interests.

Good advice. I'll do my best.
 

Strawberrylover

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Jul 18, 2009
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ENFP
bring him somewhere that places little emphasis on language or speaking in general, but where a good number of people are still present .. perhaps an aquarium, public garden, or some other serene environment in which he can observe people and choose whether to interact with them or not. take it slow. he will appreciate your patience and will reject your efforts if they seem hassled. always make it clear that you are thinking of his well-being rather than your own in reaching out to him.


appeal to his sense of humor when he becomes too shy or pessimistic, and remind him that it serves a functional purpose to learn about the english language and american culture. remind him that he can pass on important information to a wider number of people if he speaks more than one language! most NTs will find merit there.. and remind him that he will have a lot more fun at museums and observatories when he can easily read the brouchures and informational placques.

This is great advice as well. Thanks! :hi:

Do you think buying books for him would be a good idea? Or would that be kind of insulting to his intelligence?
 

phthalocyanine

#005645
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sx
i think i would talk to him and listen to his perspective a bit before i decided on whether or not to buy the books. if you got the books for him and presented them to him now, even as a kind gesture, he might, as you said, take it as an insult to his intelligence or competency (a terrible blow for an INTP; avoid this at all costs).
i think he will most likely tell you (or give you hints about) what his boundaries are where that stuff is concerned as soon as the floor is open between you two.

also, i think it's very nice that you would be willing to go and get books for him in the event that he wanted them but felt hesitant to get them on his own. you could end up being the support he has needed but not been able to ask for. i think INTPs, in general, are very much worth the patience.. it's glorious to watch their enthusiasm grow.
 

jenocyde

half mystic, half skeksis
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Are your parents divorced?

Find him a nice white woman who will change him. Don't be resistant to America!

no. :rolli:

Your OP is your perception of him. There is nothing wrong with him. If you are worried about this in his older age, don't. He will more than likely out live you. He doesn't like the politics of China but the culture he did enjoy maybe. He doesn't like the cultural politics of the US but the freedom he does enjoy maybe. His Ti is just fine. And who are you to draw conclusions about Ti. Perhaps it is you who is an unhealthy ENFP. With all of your expectations that someone should be so accepting of the decay and baggage our culture evolved, (i should write 'social culture') this may be very similar to threads that wonder why people ask "Why are you angry" or say "Smile!" or ask "are you Ok?" Get off his ass already. Let him enjoy his freedom of expression.

yes. this is more than likely.
 

Qre:us

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This is exactly it.

So what you think is going on is: US not recognizing his credentials --> feelings of uselessness, despair and resentment --> refusing to change because the changers didn't accept him in the first place --> becoming stagnant --> US not recognizing his skills --> feelings of uselessness...

I guess my best hope of helping him would be stepping in mid-cycle at "refusing to change." Because I have assimilated into the US, I can show as his daughter that the "changers" can accept him.

I know because I faced this with my parents, hence, I could pick up on what the underlying issue likely is. It's harder to acclimatize to a different culture when you're middle-aged.

And, you accurately picked up where the 'intervention' will need to be: the 'refusing to change' mentality.

There is no Chinatown nearby. We're in kind of a suburban area. There's definitely a Chinese community, but I just get frustrated even thinking of taking him to something because he's always expressed such disdain for China in general -- and not just the politics either, but also the way people think over there.

You can't know if everyone in that Chinese community has herd-mentality that your dad will reject. There may be just that one who shares his pov, and that one may be enough. It's taking a chance - 50-50. Not taking a chance is 0-100, not in your favour. And, that's what you have to get into his head: take a chance, give it a try.

I'll do my best.

And, that's all you can do, given that you are not projecting your assumptions on him, and you truly see him to be unfulfilled and unhappy with his state of being. Only then intervene. Good luck!
 

Strawberrylover

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You can't know if everyone in that Chinese community has herd-mentality that your dad will reject. There may be just that one who shares his pov, and that one may be enough. It's taking a chance - 50-50. Not taking a chance is 0-100, not in your favour. And, that's what you have to get into his head: take a chance, give it a try.

Right. The difficulty has been that I know that not everyone in the Chinese community is the same, but I don't know if he knows that. If he does, why hasn't he himself reached out to them all these years? You see where the problem is? He doesn't really like the US, but he hates China as well. Like I said in the OP, he's a nowhere man, neither here nor there.

I see that everyone's focusing on connecting him with Chinese culture and people, assuming that he still wants this. I'm just not sure he does.

And, that's all you can do, given that you are not projecting your assumptions on him, and you truly see him to be unfulfilled and unhappy with his state of being. Only then intervene. Good luck!

Thanks. I don't think I'm projecting. I've seen this isolating behavior from him for too long and I've seen him when he's been happy and fulfilled -- he just hasn't been that way in a long time.
 

jenocyde

half mystic, half skeksis
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Right, because an inability to connect with people, growing resentment and alienation for almost 20 years should be taken as a sign of health and "freedom of expression." Wow. :doh:

And who is this "professor goodstain" to say that his Ti is just fine anyway? Because he knows my father so well from a description (one that left out many details) that I put on an internet forum? NTs, I expected better from you.

You shouldn't have asked for ideas or opinions if you only wanted those that matched yours. You know this man more than we do, but you didn't address the points that Prof brought up. I expected exactly that from an NF... (see how that argument makes no sense?)

You are very quick to dismiss, but not as quick to explain. So don't get upset if we jump to conclusions based on the limited facts you posted. And if someone does give advice that resonates with you, I don't see you dismissing them based on limited facts... it's hypocritical. We all saw the same facts and came to different conclusions, but only ours were dismissed.

While the Prof isn't exactly eloquent in his approach, is there any truth to what he says? Is your father truly unhappy or do you just think that is what you would be like if you were unhappy?

You mentioned that his dominant Ti may be defunct. How are you judging that? His lack of socialization does not equate to his lack of Ti. In addition, it's not as if you presented him as someone who became this way recently (e.g. sank into depression), but as someone who has exhibited the same behavior for at least 20 years. So why is he now all of a sudden a concern? His personality may just be his personality.

Is it that you are concerned about his well being or is the real fear that you may have to take care of him in his old age?

Maybe taking him to Chinatown will help, but if you were really concerned about his mental state, wouldn't it be more helpful to seek the help of a professional? If he never wanted to do activities, why would he do them now?

Yeah, this is what you should expect from an NT.
 

yenom

Alexander the Terrible
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
1,755
Does he have money or not? That can make alot of difference.

Does he have a job there? The best way to mingle in with the culture is get a job.
 

onemoretime

Dreaming the life
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Messages
4,455
MBTI Type
3h50
Start exploring. Get the Ne muscle flexing, seeking out the infinite connections. Maybe a long road trip is in order for him?

What does he know about the US, other than a country he emigrated to? Maybe he should discover this country for himself.
 
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