[MBTI General] ISTJs - wannabe INTPs?

[jenocyde]

The problem really isn't Simulated's presentation, but that some ENTPs legitimately think that way, so you can really never be sure.

Um, most of us don't waste time thinking about other people, so that blows your theory right out of the water.

 

[Ozz]

At one point in my life, an online personality test typed me as INTJ. The description of INTJ I read appeared to fit me somewhat, but I couldn't image myself as a INTP. no insults to you INTP of course.

 

[CzeCze]

This is based basically on sightings on INTPc. According to this hypotesis, the "defining" traits of an INTP, such as highly "analytical", "logical", even "intellectually superior" in worst cases, may very well mislead an average ISTJ, who encounters the MBTI for the first time. Because it is not uncommon for an ISTJ to take pride in his "rational", "logical" thinking, the misfortunate ISTJ will assume that indeed he must be the INTP - the most logical and rational type.

At the first sight, he may appear to be one - analyzing and rationalizing everything like the world's biggest scientist, but there are definite deviations from INTP archetype once observed closely.

They are among us.

What do you think? I am not claiming anything, that's why I call it hypotesis. (Also, I do not claim that the percentage of ISTJs mistyped in this way is disproportionally big.)

On paper if you focus just one that narrow chacteristic and factor of "intelligence" et. al., I could maybe see what you're getting at.

But IRL ISTJ and INTP are just such different animals. I have a good ISTJ friend and we collectively know at least 4 other INTP women annnnnnd -

:yim_rolling_on_the_

Hahahahaah - no.

I don't think she would ever, EVER, mistake herself for an INTP using those 4 other women as templates. Nor would she aspire to be an INTP at their best. I would go more into the reasoning, but it sounds a bit like bashing a type.

Basically, an 'average' ISTJ and an 'average' INTP share a lot of the same weaknesses and obstacles. And have very different value systems. So there is no advantage or benefit to an ISTJ to aspire to be an INTP. And I don't think an ISTJ would ever mistake themselves to be an INTP if they knew what an INTP looked like. I do agree that there are some surface similarities - for instance, both can be judgemental and heavy on the haterade.

As far as intelligence et. al. - ISTJs are extremely efficient and competent and they do value intelligence, however, it's a very different skill set and ideal. ISTJs are very much about workflow efficiency and are very 'process oriented'. (INTPs are NOT 'process oriented')

While my ISTJ friend acknowledges how intelligent and tech savvy two of our INTP friends are (they work in IT) and would ask them for specialized/localized knowledge in say, fixing her computer, you can tell how she does NOT think they are overall "competent" in day to day life and she does NOT think highly of that shortcoming.

I think Ne-Monster probably has some good real life examples of XSTJs in supply chain or similar at work facing off with XNTPs in product development. Or at least, I thought she wrote something similar to that before in a thread.

Even referring to your OP, it's just a different kind of intelligence.

 

[forzen]

INTP are definately not more intelligent than any other type. With that said, some will hold "intelligent" as their most defining trait, and label other type inferior (mostly the people that complain about not interested in participating in small talks, etc). Being socially inept is a profound disability and one has to be proud of its only asset.

With that said, i find that majority of the SJ at my work below me with their useless chatter, and would like to round them up and make them watch the history/sci/discovery channel so they will have a subject to discuss with me while I'm blessing them with my presence *goes to wikipedia to look up years the Dallas Cowboy won the superbowl*. Ahem

Of course ISTJ logical thinking is geared more toward things that are built now and analytical thinking on how mechanical devices such as cars, rockets, etc works..while at the same time tinkering with them (not rockets, since the average person can't tinker with one). While the INTP are interested in pondering and analyze abstract phenomenon (useless information that can't be put in any practical application till he or she is long dead). So ISTJ being a big scientist is very possible (as possible as INTP scientist lol).

 

[Eye 'n' Teepee]

FYI, INTP's aren't the best thing since sliced bread.

An INTP invented sliced bread, you know.

 

[EcK]

An INTP invented sliced bread, you know.

yeah but an istj invented bread

 

[ed111]

I think it is much more likely that an ISTJ would be mis-typed as an INTJ. Having read through the ISTJ profile again, I can say that I recognise a lot of it in myself. For example, work ethic, family values, liking to know the facts, procedures, punctuality, not expressing feelings, organising tasks and implementing through to completion.

The biggest difference between myself and the ISTJ profile is that I have always abhored tradition. I've never blindly followed, or followed because people should be respected. In fact, much to my detriment, I often challenge authority, point out flaws in their arguments and will quite often crack a joke about a superior or just make them look stupid. I'm not religious or affiliated to a particular belief or philosophy.

I like to look at the bigger picture, and would be quite ruthless in trying to achieve an ultimate goal (i.e. do whatever it takes regardless of the rules, ethics or morals). I have little sense of my surroundings, of "great sense of space and function, and artistic appreciation". I like things simple and plain. The art I like tends to express a meaning (such as Banksy's work) rather than being great art in itself.

My mother is an ISTJ and we are very similar in many ways (plus I've also managed to pick up some of her neurotic beliefs). We generally get along well but we also have hum-dingers of arguments. She has an aversion to technology or anything new (which may just be a generation thing). She feels like she must send birthday cards, christmas cards and cards for events that I would never have considered to every person she's ever known, otherwise the world will end.

I enjoy thinking about theories, concepts and far fetched ideas (hence my love of science fiction). I'll quite often write programming applications just to find out how a particular function or design works and never put it to any use, preferring instead to move to the next idea. Of course if I'm required to complete a project I will do, but in my own time I like to experiment.

 

[simulatedworld]

Um, most of us don't waste time thinking about other people, so that blows your theory right out of the water.

ENTPs don't waste time thinking about other people? Here we are discussing this on a typology forum...?

I assume this must be deadpan/subtle self-mockery for the self-centered attitude ENTPs are sometimes known for?

I'm frankly a little confused.

The biggest difference between myself and the ISTJ profile is that I have always abhored tradition. I've never blindly followed, or followed because people should be respected. In fact, much to my detriment, I often challenge authority, point out flaws in their arguments and will quite often crack a joke about a superior or just make them look stupid. I'm not religious or affiliated to a particular belief or philosophy.

This is a nearly ubiquitous mistake regarding ISTJs! They're just risk-averse, not mindless tradition zombies. Their Te dislikes tradition when it gets in the way of completing measurable goals just like yours does--the desire that everyone mistakes as "staunch traditionalism" in Si is actually just cautious risk-aversion. (btw, in my experience most arbitrary insistence on tradition for its own sake comes from the more emotional Fe...you'll hear a lot more arguments on purely traditionalist grounds from SFJs than you will from STJs, for sure!)

ISTJs above age 35 or so do seem to have more of a traditionalist bent, but that's because they weren't raised in the information age.

Since the dawning of the internet and the vast wealth of knowledge it provides almost instantly, Si's need to be prepared by knowing all about the standard methods and having a detailed plan gains enormous advantage and no longer has to stick to "tradition" just to be safe.

In truth, it's a big misconception that SJs are inherently traditional--they're not; they're just really cautious, and before the information age following tradition was just the only realistic option for maintaining long term stability through a cautious and measured approach.

THIS is what SJs value, not upholding stupid traditions and arbitrary rules for no reason. Most of the ISTJ profiles floating around are just outright wrong.

I highly doubt that ISTJs will confuse themselves with any NT type -- they're polar opposite temperaments.

Though I could see ISTPs confuse themselves with NTs, being utilitarian thinking types. ISTPs and INTJs could superficially resemble each other, and ISTPs and INTPs are both Ti-dom.

There's no such thing as "polar opposite" temperaments; that doesn't make sense because Keirsey's temperaments aren't linear across the same MBTI stats. Two of the SJ types share a Thinking preference with NTs, and for two of the NT types (INTJ/ENTJ) it's actually the same one (Te.)

ISTP is more likely to confuse with INTP, and ISTJ more likely with INTJ. The function that relates each of these pairs is Thinking; Ti for the former and Te for the latter.

 

[JocktheMotie]

Um, most of us don't waste time thinking about other people, so that blows your theory right out of the water.

I was more remarking on how ENTPs can have a tendency towards an inflated view of their own self importance and abilities. Which could lead to someone actually making a post like Simulated's joke post, but have it be completely serious.

 

[jenocyde]

Yes, SW and Jock - it was a joke, as silly as the one someone made about us thinking that INTPs wish they could be us. And for my next act, I shall disappear.

 

[Take Five]

ENTPs don't waste time thinking about other people? Here we are discussing this on a typology forum...?

I assume this must be deadpan/subtle self-mockery for the self-centered attitude ENTPs are sometimes known for?

I'm frankly a little confused.




This is a nearly ubiquitous mistake regarding ISTJs! They're just risk-averse, not mindless tradition zombies. Their Te dislikes tradition when it gets in the way of completing measurable goals just like yours does--the desire that everyone mistakes as "staunch traditionalism" in Si is actually just cautious risk-aversion. (btw, in my experience most arbitrary insistence on tradition for its own sake comes from the more emotional Fe...you'll hear a lot more arguments on purely traditionalist grounds from SFJs than you will from STJs, for sure!)

ISTJs above age 35 or so do seem to have more of a traditionalist bent, but that's because they weren't raised in the information age.

Since the dawning of the internet and the vast wealth of knowledge it provides almost instantly, Si's need to be prepared by knowing all about the standard methods and having a detailed plan gains enormous advantage and no longer has to stick to "tradition" just to be safe.

In truth, it's a big misconception that SJs are inherently traditional--they're not; they're just really cautious, and before the information age following tradition was just the only realistic option for maintaining long term stability through a cautious and measured approach.

THIS is what SJs value, not upholding stupid traditions and arbitrary rules for no reason. Most of the ISTJ profiles floating around are just outright wrong.




There's no such thing as "polar opposite" temperaments; that doesn't make sense because Keirsey's temperaments aren't linear across the same MBTI stats. Two of the SJ types share a Thinking preference with NTs, and for two of the NT types (INTJ/ENTJ) it's actually the same one (Te.)

ISTP is more likely to confuse with INTP, and ISTJ more likely with INTJ. The function that relates each of these pairs is Thinking; Ti for the former and Te for the latter.

I think this is right on the money.

 

[IZthe411]

I read the INTP description. Sounds nothing like me, and I have no desire to be one. Not saying they are inferior, but I'm content with who I am.

 

[IZthe411]

I am not tradition based. I've read that too in my descriptions, and I can't reconcile it. Most traditions are inconveniences, have no feeling behind them, and are done to satisfy some touchy feely aspect.

Like Valentines Day- dumb tradition. I'll never buy my girl something on February 14 because it's expected. It's just a chance to get in my pockets. I'll get my girl something when the feeling hits.

 

[ed111]

I am not tradition based. I've read that too in my descriptions, and I can't reconcile it. Most traditions are inconveniences, have no feeling behind them, and are done to satisfy some touchy feely aspect.

Like Valentines Day- dumb tradition. I'll never buy my girl something on February 14 because it's expected. It's just a chance to get in my pockets. I'll get my girl something when the feeling hits.

I've read through all of the ISTJ type descriptions and a lot of them do mention following tradition.

However, now I come to think about it, I think you're right. My ISTJ mother is not religious, never goes to church and didn't have me christened despite being brought up as a catholic.

I would say though that I think ISTJ are generally conservative ( in the best sense ), like things to be ordered and predictable, tend to respect authority and like to follow social norms.

 

[IZthe411]

I've read through all of the ISTJ type descriptions and a lot of them do mention following tradition.

However, now I come to think about it, I think you're right. My ISTJ mother is not religious, never goes to church and didn't have me christened despite being brought up as a catholic.

I would say thought that I think ISTJ are generally conservative ( in the best sense ), like things to be ordered and predictable, tend to respect authority and like to follow social norms.

I'd qualify 'like to follow social norms'. Personally I accept them if it makes sense and is indicative of good manners and consideration. If it's something that is expected but makes no sense- then no. I can't think of one here at work, but I will and put it here.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

The bullshit about ISTJs all being tradition lackeys mostly if not entirely comes from David Keirsey.

 

[Ozz]

I've read through all of the ISTJ type descriptions and a lot of them do mention following tradition.

Exactly. On the surface, ISTJ may look like they follow traditions because they are traditions, but internally, we follow them because they make sense to us and have a more certain outcome.

 

[ajblaise]

The bullshit about ISTJs all being tradition lackeys mostly if not entirely comes from David Keirsey.

When you have a cautious and conservative temperament, as many ISTJs do, adherence to tradition is often what naturally follows. It's an obvious connection to make.

Not all SJs are rigid traditionalists, but if you're a rigid traditionalist, you're probably an SJ.

 

[Mondo]

INTP's and ISTJ's are remarkably different... I can see how it's difficult for the personality typing layman to differentiate between the two since they both can seem 'cold', 'aloof', and 'quiet'.

However... INTP's are abstract in communication, pragmatic when dealing with people, and prefer informing over directing.
ISTJ's are concrete in communication, cooperative when dealing with people, and prefer directing over informing.

Many of the INTP's on INTPCentral could very well not be INTP's though.. I'll give you that.

 

[CzeCze]

Many of the INTP's on INTPCentral could very well not be INTP's though.. I'll give you that.

New thread, new thread, new thread!



I will say though, I've met 5 typed INTPs (not on this forum) compared to the 1 ISTJ irl. I think it may have to do with the fact that intuitives are drawn more to typology/testing than SJ's? My ISTJ friend only took the test at my request.