[MBTI General] Provoker Takes Vacation from Ventrillo

[Provoker]

To whom it may concern,

I've decided to leave vent for a while primarily because I've been finding the experience increasingly unrewarding. Perhaps my expectations for intellectual discussion and clarity, consistency, and elegance in diction are too high, but I find myself often disappointed with marginal exceptions. The F-dominants tend to derail controversial dicussions for sake of social harmony. The Ne-dominants tend to derail good discussions due to undisciplined extroverted intuition. Given that the majority of participants constitute ENTPs and F-types, the upshot is that these constant derailings feed a bastardization of potentially high quality discussions. Adding to the problem is the difference in mental frameworks people are operating in. I myself tune into ventrillo because I see it as a potential domain for intellectual discussions. Yet others merely use it as a social service to chit chat and satiate their bordom and nothing more. Furthermore, it has become evident that certain users are trying to become some sort of carbon copy of me, stealing my intellectual property and trying to pawn it off as their own without giving me due recognition. They fail to understand that only when they've all denied me do I return to them. Merely reiterating my ideas is tantamount to herd-behavior. It's nonsense! Fiddlesticks! And thus not what I stand for.

The other reason for taking a vacation from vent is actually linked to my respect for certain users who have given back to me. It is for these people that I shall starve the beast for a while. Indeed, implicit in my logic is the assumption that if I starve myself socially, and go into metaphysical solitude in my cave, I will come back refreshed, filled with new ideas, models, and experiences to expound on and share. One must ask one's self how many people have we seen come on vent, given the users their best and brightest ideas only to be completely drained and intellectually bankrupt and depressed shortly after? At its lowest vitality there may be about 10 users on all bored to death and scavenging like animals searching for food in anything--any new person to come on with any new idea. I myself have strived to be a catelogue for theories, an infinite abyss for insights, and a surgeon with logic. But I want to leave while my stock is still high and I want to come back when it's higher.

As mentioned, some members have given back to me and thus I will mention only briefly a few things that have stood out in the vent experience and pay them due respect. First of all, despite all test results, I don't think there are as many NTs on vent as people who claim to be. There are many Ns with high intuition that's not accompanied by strict logic and clear thinking. These intuitionists often have hearts well placed but are subject to momentary impressions and as a result find themselves in logical contradictions. On the other hand, there are also some users with sound logic but whose imagination is clearly in poverty. There aren't many with both a wealthy imagination and solid logic, intuition combined with grand thinking. In my books, SolitaryWalker has earned this category and is one of the few users that has given back to me intellectually.

Second, I respect Jeffster as one of the few vent users who seems to be by and large true to himself. While many users strive to cherry pick a personality that they like at that particular moment, Jeffster has a base-personality that is consistent and particular only to himself. Jeffster is also able to laugh at himself, which makes him likeable and easy company.

Third, I respect Thatgirl for her natural aptitude and interest in philosophical affairs. I'd say the hidden link between Thatgirl and I is in metaphysical solitude.

In conclusion, I will be going on a vacation from ventrillo for a while. I will be injecting myself with Russian literature (Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Nabokov, Gogol, and so on). I will be writing lots of interesting things down and engaging in passionate creative contemplation in my solitude from time to time. I will be preparing a mental framework for my Master's program beginning in September. Once I get a new laptop and have systematized and militarized every dimension of my life to a strict regiment, I will consider descending from my side of the mountain and returning to vent.

 

[BlackCat]

You'll be missed. When there was actually a conversation happening it was very fun. I have the same issues with vent that you do, people derailing, Ne users, etc. I could always rely on you when you were in there to actually discuss something rather than fluff it up.

 

[93JC]

Boo hoo.

 

[The Decline]

Couldn't you have just said "fuck you" to them on Ventrillo instead? It's much more rewarding.

 

[Matthew_Z]

Why have you abandoned attempting to change the Ventrilo atmosphere? There is a section for "Super Serious Discussion." There is a possibility, however large or small, that this section could be reserved for the purposes of intellectually stimulating discussion instead of some random room with an arbitrary name like it has so become recently.

One thing that I have noticed with Ventrilo is that it automatically disconnects whenever a line of text is over the character limit. Perhaps it is my client or perhaps it is the server settings. Should the latter case be true, this can prove to be a hindrance to intellectual discussion as entire ideas cannot expressed fully and completely in such a small amount of space. For this reason, I choose to save my "insights" for forums rather than Ventrilo. (and, of course, because Ventrilo is much faster paced and text can be lost in the blink of an eye.)

In my eyes, the best way to create the environment Provoker has long tried to experience on Ventrilo is via a TypeC IRC server. Rather than the one chatroom setup (a very possibly negative feature of Vent) for the entire community, rooms can be created and devoted to certain topics. Users choosing not to stick to the topic of the room may be kicked(and possibly banned) by the ChanOPs.

All of this being said, you will be missed, Provoker. Of course, I do encourage you to not fully "give up" on Ventrilo. I hope that one day your grievances will be attended to in a way that propels this community forward.

 

[JocktheMotie]

If intellectual discussion is something you want, I'd encourage you to outline a schedule or plan that covers what topics will be discussed and when. Open it up to the community, and announce the schedule to see if anyone would like to participate. I enjoy a good discussion as much as the next guy, and if others know something will be discussed beforehand, it could revitalize that aspect of the ventrilo community that has disappeared. Just a thought.

 

[Ivy]

Why have you abandoned attempting to change the Ventrilo atmosphere? There is a section for "Super Serious Discussion." There is a possibility, however large or small, that this section could be reserved for the purposes of intellectually stimulating discussion instead of some random room with an arbitrary name like it has so become recently.

I agree, and this might be fixable by making multiple text chats to go with each voice chat rather than a single one for the entire server. Do weigh in here if you have an opinion on this.

 

[Colors]

I'll miss you Provoker.

 

[Jeffster]

Second, I respect Jeffster as one of the few vent users who seems to be by and large true to himself. While many users strive to cherry pick a personality that they like at that particular moment, Jeffster has a base-personality that is consistent and particular only to himself. Jeffster is also able to laugh at himself, which makes him likeable and easy company.

Thanks, man. I respect you too. And I still think you're the best on-point ranter we've had in Vent. The times when you really got going in voice were usually really fun.

I will be injecting myself with Russian literature

Damn, that sounds painful.

All of this being said, you will be missed, Provoker. Of course, I do encourage you to not fully "give up" on Ventrilo. I hope that one day your grievances will be attended to in a way that propels this community forward.

If intellectual discussion is something you want, I'd encourage you to outline a schedule or plan that covers what topics will be discussed and when. Open it up to the community, and announce the schedule to see if anyone would like to participate. I enjoy a good discussion as much as the next guy, and if others know something will be discussed beforehand, it could revitalize that aspect of the ventrilo community that has disappeared. Just a thought.

I agree with these suggestions. I think one reason I enjoyed hearing your perspective is, like you said, it's not well-represented in Vent, so it was always good to mix things up a bit. I've been the only ISFP who has regularly participated, so that's one reason I feel like I've brought a unique perspective to things too. I think it benefits almost any discussion to have a greater variety of people. Sure, discussions among the same type can be fun sometimes, but it's cool to get different takes on subjects and sort of see where the "battle lines" are drawn.

So, anyway, I wish you well in whatever you do, good luck with your literature injections and regiments and stuff, and hopefully we can talk again in the not-too-distant future.

 

[Athenian200]

To whom it may concern,

I've decided to leave vent for a while primarily because I've been finding the experience increasingly unrewarding. Perhaps my expectations for intellectual discussion and clarity, consistency, and elegance in diction are too high, but I find myself often disappointed with marginal exceptions. The F-dominants tend to derail controversial dicussions for sake of social harmony. The Ne-dominants tend to derail good discussions due to undisciplined extroverted intuition. Given that the majority of participants constitute ENTPs and F-types, the upshot is that these constant derailings feed a bastardization of potentially high quality discussions. Adding to the problem is the difference in mental frameworks people are operating in. I myself tune into ventrillo because I see it as a potential domain for intellectual discussions. Yet others merely use it as a social service to chit chat and satiate their bordom and nothing more. Furthermore, it has become evident that certain users are trying to become some sort of carbon copy of me, stealing my intellectual property and trying to pawn it off as their own without giving me due recognition. They fail to understand that only when they've all denied me do I return to them. Merely reiterating my ideas is tantamount to herd-behavior. It's nonsense! Fiddlesticks! And thus not what I stand for.

[...]

As mentioned, some members have given back to me and thus I will mention only briefly a few things that have stood out in the vent experience and pay them due respect. First of all, despite all test results, I don't think there are as many NTs on vent as people who claim to be. There are many Ns with high intuition that's not accompanied by strict logic and clear thinking. These intuitionists often have hearts well placed but are subject to momentary impressions and as a result find themselves in logical contradictions. On the other hand, there are also some users with sound logic but whose imagination is clearly in poverty. There aren't many with both a wealthy imagination and solid logic, intuition combined with grand thinking. In my books, SolitaryWalker has earned this category and is one of the few users that has given back to me intellectually.

No offense, but it seems to me that you're trying to cultivate an intellectual discourse from the wrong starting material. MBTI is a theory that tends to attract NFs and NF-leaning NTs slightly more than extreme NTs, in my experience. Especially in a discussion format. It's my personal belief that Jung and Isabel Myers were NF types themselves.

The reason you find so many NF and ST types that think of themselves as NT is because, ironically, independent-mindedness and creativity are overt cultural values in certain cultures and subcultures, and thus a person might very well idealize NTs and wish to rationalize that they're misunderstood because they're more intelligent and creative than everyone else. Lastly, out of actual NTs, there are probably several who simply don't enjoy using their N and T in as rigorous a fashion as yourself and SolitaryWalker. I believe you're at an extreme, focused end of the NT spectrum.

Essentially, the people you're interacting with do not actually wish to engage in an intellectually intense discussion. That is your goal, and it isn't shared by the others, who simply want to interact on a much simpler mental level. It's somewhat unfair for you to demand that they contribute to a goal that only you and a few others have.

So, it seems to me that what you should do, is gather up SolitaryWalker, and a few other philosophical types (perhaps from philosophy or high-level mathematical forums) that want to create the kind of environment you desire, and create a new Vent channel oriented towards that purpose. The current forum population, and Vent channel, is more general purpose and quite simply not suited to fulfilling the intellectual demands you're making on it.

Basically, create something specifically geared towards your purposes, rather than attempting to appropriate something that wasn't designed for them in the first place.

This forum does have quite a few intellectual personalities, but this is mostly spillover from INTPc. An accident, not representative of the direction the forum was intended to go in the first place. And the concentration is diluting as we gain more members, so you will only find less and less of what you seek here over time. I stay here mostly for social reasons. If I were seeking genuine intellectual stimulation, I would seek it elsewhere. I'd advise you to do the same... and hopefully, to return here for the human element eventually.

 

[BlackCat]

No offense, but it seems to me that you're trying to cultivate an intellectual discourse from the wrong starting material. MBTI is a theory that tends to attract NFs slightly more than NTs, in my experience. Especially in a discussion format. It's my personal belief that Jung and Isabel Myers were NF types themselves.

So what? I'm an NF and I really enjoy intellectual and theoretical discussion.

Essentially, the people you're interacting with do not actually wish to engage in an intellectually intense discussion. That is your goal, and it isn't shared by the others, who simply want to interact on a much simpler mental level. It's somewhat unfair for you to demand that they contribute to a goal that only you and a few others have.

How do you know ANY of this? I've never seen you in ventrilo and I've been a regular in there for many many months. Separate rooms and separate chats would solve this issue, but we don't have that for vent.

There are free chat services that we could you, you get a temporary room and you just simply enter in and enter in your name. I've used them before for talking to people.

So, it seems to me that what you should do, is gather up SolitaryWalker, and a few other philosophical types (perhaps from philosophy or high-level mathematical forums) that want to create the kind of environment you desire, and create a new Vent channel oriented towards that purpose. The current forum population, and Vent channel, is more general purpose and quite simply not suited to fulfilling the intellectual demands you're making on it.

There is already the super serious discussion room. Since I've never seen you in there, ever, I'm not sure how you would know otherwise. There isn't just one vent channel... where are you getting this information? Super serious discussion IS for this kind of talk, but as we've said before the chat just basically ruins it.

Basically, create something specifically geared towards your purposes, rather than attempting to appropriate something that wasn't designed for them in the first place.

I've already answered this, but I'll say it again. We already have rooms designed for this kind of thing and I'm not sure how you're getting any of this information having not been in vent to witness any of this. Ventrilo is designed for communication, so saying ventrilo isn't designed for what Provoker wants to use it for is ridiculous.

 

[Athenian200]

So what? I'm an NF and I really enjoy intellectual and theoretical discussion.

Well, yes. Who doesn't, once in a while? But Provoker pointed out that he believed that there were more NFs and STs than NTs (which he was bothered by), and I was explaining that that this shouldn't be surprising to him for several reasons.

I don't hold a prejudice that NT thoughts and perspectives are more valuable than NF thoughts and perspectives on philosophical topics, if that's your concern. I just assume that he's more interested in NT perspectives than other perspectives from the way he presented the situation.

How do you know ANY of this? I've never seen you in ventrilo and I've been a regular in there for many many months. Separate rooms and separate chats would solve this issue, but we don't have that for vent.

There are free chat services that we could you, you get a temporary room and you just simply enter in and enter in your name. I've used them before for talking to people.

I was on there once. And I don't need to be a participant to understand the underlying situation. Besides, you illustrated the known problem with your own solution.

There is already the super serious discussion room. Since I've never seen you in there, ever, I'm not sure how you would know otherwise. There isn't just one vent channel... where are you getting this information? Super serious discussion IS for this kind of talk, but as we've said before the chat just basically ruins it.

I've already answered this, but I'll say it again. We already have rooms designed for this kind of thing and I'm not sure how you're getting any of this information having not been in vent to witness any of this. Ventrilo is designed for communication, so saying ventrilo isn't designed for what Provoker wants to use it for is ridiculous.

Ventrillo itself isn't "designed" for any particular purpose. I certainly agree that it, as a protocol, could be used for that. You misunderstood my point. I was saying that the goal of the PEOPLE who interact in that particular Ventrillo "room" or community (which I presume is the same group that posts on the forums) obviously doesn't align well with Provoker's goals given his description of the situation.

I'm aware of the other room. I'm also aware that the room is basically an appendage on the "normal" part of the Vent server only used by a few people, and that there's a only single text chat room that would be distracting if he were trying to use it for that purpose.

My entire point was that there are more appropriate places to look for intense intellectual discussion than the Typology Central Ventrillo Server (which is going to attract mostly, guess what, Typology Central members). And he is looking for something other than what most Typology Central members are seeking.

 

[Ivy]

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...bout-ventrilo-voice-text-chat.html#post756921

So, now we can have our banter and our rigorous discussions as well.

 

[Athenian200]

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...bout-ventrilo-voice-text-chat.html#post756921

So, now we can have our banter and our rigorous discussions as well.

Well, that guarantees that forum rules will be enforced. That doesn't really seem related to the problems Provoker was having with Vent from the way he described it (seemed more related to the casual atmosphere), but maybe he was talking about something other than what he seemed to be talking about (like people breaking rules), and you knew about it? Seems like the only solution to actually create what you described would have been dividing the chat into channels so that it only showed text from the people on the channel you were on.

This doesn't make any sense. I have a feeling Vent itself doesn't tend to make much sense in general. Probably a good thing I don't go there, I'd probably get confused.

 

[Ivy]

Well, that guarantees that forum rules will be enforced. That doesn't really seem related to the problems Provoker was having with Vent from the way he described it (seemed more related to the casual atmosphere), but maybe he was talking about something other than what he seemed to be talking about, and you knew about it? Who knows.

I'm not sure what you're talking about, but that link right there went to a post that said we're now using text chat filtering which effectively means each voice chat has its own associated text chat. Which means, if Provoker doesn't want to be a part of the banter, he can have his serious discussion in one of the sub rooms and not be assaulted by NFs and Ss blowing off steam.

 

[Athenian200]

I'm not sure what you're talking about, but that link right there went to a post that said we're now using text chat filtering which effectively means each voice chat has its own associated text chat. Which means, if Provoker doesn't want to be a part of the banter, he can have his serious discussion in one of the sub rooms and not be assaulted by NFs and Ss blowing off steam.

Oh!

That would solve the problem.

The link took me to the first post in the thread. You must have said that on a different post. Yep, just looked at the last post in the thread... you did indeed say that.

 

[Little Linguist]

Provoker, that's really too bad that you're leaving. Actually, I find it quite interesting to have you in there, as you are one of the few people who actually increases the level of conversation in there.

I admit that sometimes I can be a little crazy and silly on there, and I do apologize if I ever unintentionally derailed your conversations. But I thought you and I had a great deal of interesting conversations on there, didn't we? (Politics, economy, etc.) And surely there are other people you enjoy conversing with, even if I did not match your ideal representative of intellectual sparring.

Personally, I find it easier to have intelligent conversations on a one-to-one level. I'll admit that as an Ne-dominant, I often get distracted, and so discussing on an eye-to-eye basis often means that I can focus better and stay on track. Even that is difficult for me, but if I'm engaged, I can sometimes shut off everything else, close chat, etc.

Hopefully I'm not one of the ones who made you disgruntled, but I hope you remember that I always stood up for you in there, and I think you made great contributions. But that's just me.

However, in the end, you need to decide what is the most fruitful for you. If you have determined that sparring in the Ventrilo chat does not provide you with the intellectual stimulus you need, I completely think you have every right to find something more suitable. Nonetheless, if you change your mind, I would love to pick your brain and engage in some interesting topics, even if it is more me listening to you and asking you challenging questions.

What do you say?

 

[jenocyde]

What intellectual property have you given that you haven't been credited for, in people's attempt to copy you?

 

[Little Linguist]

Yeah, that's what I was wondering, too. Damn! I would be pissed off about that as well.

 

[Night]

It seems to me that you're trying to cultivate an intellectual discourse from the wrong starting material.

Agreed.

A big part of being intelligent is recognizing when to expect it in others.

...

That said, this is exactly the type of response I'd expect from you, Provoker.