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[INTP] Rant on INTPs

SolitaryWalker

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Are you equating true compassion with Fi? Isn't there some potential danger in ascribing specific moral traits with personality functions? Fi is most certain of the internal structure of emotion and values, and can therefore be more likely to respond to external emotional scenarios with judgment, projection, and bias. It can be compassionate certainly, but i don't see how its compassionate ideal transcends any other. Its intensely subjective quality places it at risk for distorted perceptions. Inaccurate empathy can lead to sincere, but flawed compassion. Fi is just as capable of killing with kindness as any function, if not moreso. Si has some of these same preconceived notions about right and wrong. Put Si and Fi together as dominant and tertiary functions and you can have a highly motivated compassion, but one that can have very little to do with the individual or situation at hand. That's when you hope the Si-Fi or Fi-Si internal framework is in agreement with most needs in general, because it can have a great trouble adapting to new or divergent needs and scenarios with any kind of accurate empathy.


I am talking about the Feeling oriented higher/inner purpose. This is only possible with Fi, not Fe. There were no entailments of personal values to this statement, so none of what you mentioned applies.

Such Fi behavior as you describe tends to stem from a lack of a higher purpose, this leads to self-apotheosis. A parallel could be drawn to a Ti not having found a higher purpose.
 

SolitaryWalker

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So what you are saying is that in a perfect world everyone is either an INTP or INFP? How noble of you to include both types in your vision of a perfect world. :D I also love how you use the term "higher purpose" as opposed to something like "inner purpose" or "internally focused".

How foolish of me to think it arrogant to use the term "higher purpose" to refer to the natural inclinations of the INTP and INFP. :harhar:

In a perfect world everyone has achieved the higher purpose (Ti/Ne or Fi/Ne), but this doesn't mean that everyone is either INTP or INFP--has the natural defects that INPs tend to incur.
 

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I am talking about the Feeling oriented higher/inner purpose. This is only possible with Fi, not Fe. There were no entailments of personal values to this statement, so none of what you mentioned applies.

Such Fi behavior as you describe tends to stem from a lack of a higher purpose, this leads to self-apotheosis. A parallel could be drawn to a Ti not having found a higher purpose.
I was thrown off by your use of the word compassion which implies acting upon a value in the external world. I still don't understand its role in your position regarding 'higher purpose' with INPs.

Compare the following from typelogic.com
INFJ said:
Beneath the quiet exterior, INFJs hold deep convictions about the weightier matters of life. Those who are activists -- INFJs gravitate toward such a role -- are there for the cause, not for personal glory or political power.

INFJs are champions of the oppressed and downtrodden. They often are found in the wake of an emergency, rescuing those who are in acute distress. INFJs may fantasize about getting revenge on those who victimize the defenseless. The concept of 'poetic justice' is appealing to the INFJ.

INFP said:
INFPs never seem to lose their sense of wonder. One might say they see life through rose-colored glasses. It's as though they live at the edge of a looking-glass world where mundane objects come to life, where flora and fauna take on near-human qualities.

INFP children often exhibit this in a 'Calvin and Hobbes' fashion, switching from reality to fantasy and back again. With few exceptions, it is the NF child who readily develops imaginary playmates (as with Anne of Green Gables's "bookcase girlfriend"--her own reflection) and whose stuffed animals come to life like the Velveteen Rabbit and the Skin Horse:

INTP said:
INTPs are pensive, analytical folks. They may venture so deeply into thought as to seem detached, and often actually are oblivious to the world around them.

Precise about their descriptions, INTPs will often correct others (or be sorely tempted to) if the shade of meaning is a bit off. While annoying to the less concise, this fine discrimination ability gives INTPs so inclined a natural advantage as, for example, grammarians and linguists. ..

INTPs and Logic -- One of the tipoffs that a person is an INTP is her obsession with logical correctness. Errors are not often due to poor logic -- apparent faux pas in reasoning are usually a result of overlooking details or of incorrect context.

Of these three the INFJ is described as being defined by a 'higher purpose' in terms more aligned with that phrase. "Higher purpose' can be redefined to mean something else, but until it is, then your argument doesn't fit with this information here. I can see that the INFP's and INTP's sense of purpose is not as concerned with impacting the external world. The INFP is more willing to distort their impression to fit their inner context, the rose-colored glasses. That is what i was describing in the earlier post. Of course these are all MBTI classifications. In Socionics the Ps and Js are flipped with INs, so that INFJ is actually an INFp and so forth.
 

SolitaryWalker

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I was thrown off by your use of the word compassion which implies acting upon a value in the external world. I still don't understand its role in your position regarding 'higher purpose' with INPs.

Compare the following from typelogic.com






Of these three the INFJ is described as being defined by a 'higher purpose' in terms more aligned with that phrase. "Higher purpose' can be redefined to mean something else, but until it is, then your argument doesn't fit with this information here. I can see that the INFP's and INTP's sense of purpose is not as concerned with impacting the external world. The INFP is more willing to distort their impression to fit their inner context, the rose-colored glasses. That is what i was describing in the earlier post. Of course these are all MBTI classifications. In Socionics the Ps and Js are flipped with INs, so that INFJ is actually an INFp and so forth.

INFJs are led by Introverted Intuition. Yes, there is introverted aim, here though not introverted judgment like we have with INPs.

INJs follow an internal vision, INPs follow an internal ethic. That is the difference between having internal perception and internal judgment, internal aim and a clear-cut sense of internal direction.


Compassion is more closely aligned with Fi than Fe because Introverted Feeling is sees feeling as an end itself, yet Extroverted Feeling tends to think that Feelings need to be applied to the external world. One could easily argue that Fi needs depth of feeling in order to be authentic, yet Fe does not, it only needs for feelings to be deep enough to reach this or that external agenda. Analogously to how Ti sees problem solving as an end in itself, whilst Te is more concerned with applying solutions to the real world.

I am using higher purpose synonymously as an internal purpose, one that underlies a purpose that could be prescribed conventionally--by the external world.

Introverted Intuition does not have a purpose, it only has a vision, it relies on extroverted judgment in order to give the vision a purpose. Therefore it does not have a higher purpose in the same sense that Introverted Judgment tends to.
 

SolitaryWalker

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LL,

I think this will settle our contention.

I am not saying that everyone must be like INPs to find inner purpose, but merely learn to use introverted judgment well. An ESFJ would not be any less of an ESFJ had she become highly in tune with the introverted judgment. She'd still be external focused and concrete, yet would have an inner sense of direction to all of her external activities as opposed to be blown around hither and thither by influences that befall her.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

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LL,

I think this will settle our contention.

I am not saying that everyone must be like INPs to find inner purpose, but merely learn to use introverted judgment well. An ESFJ would not be any less of an ESFJ had she become highly in tune with the introverted judgment. She'd still be external focused and concrete, yet would have an inner sense of direction to all of her external activities as opposed to be blown around hither and thither by influences that befall her.

No, that does not settle our contention, because the issue I have is that you consider introverted judgement to be superior functions to all of the others. I would never refer to inner purpose as a higher purpose. It is merely a different way of interacting with the world (or one's self in this case). The notion that a purpose derived from internal judgement is somehow higher than all of the others simply comes from type bigotry.

Once you have decided that no type is intrinsically better than any of the others, then we will be able to see eye to eye.
 

SolitaryWalker

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No, that does not settle our contention, because the issue I have is that you consider introverted judgement to be superior functions to all of the others. I would never refer to inner purpose as a higher purpose. It is merely a different way of interacting with the world (or one's self in this case). The notion that a purpose derived from internal judgement is somehow higher than all of the others simply comes from type bigotry.

Once you have decided that no type is intrinsically better than any of the others, then we will be able to see eye to eye.

Introverted purpose underlies external morality. Introverted Judgment is about how you can become the best person possible (much like what Socrates and Confucius taught), Extroverted Judgment is about how you can best contribute to society.


'Somewhere in the 1600s a man who could not see, sat down to write what he thought would be the greatest poem in human history. He said it would include, in his words, ''things yet unattempted in prose or rhyme.'' It is the view of the modern world that he achieved just that. His poem, the paradise Lost, is considered the greatest epic in human history. Few poems take on such an enormous theme as Paradise Lost, a theme that is not less than the origin of evil in itself. The man who took on this ambitious challenge, and created a classic in the process, is a man who led a life of immense struggle, loss and sacrifice. In a sense, John Milton's life was a search for paradise-a life in which the poet became the poem.

Spinoza lived an uneventful life…Outwardly he was a poor lensgrinder supporting himself by his labors and indulging in much study. It has been the fashion to indulge in sentimentality over the man whom Unamo called the tragic, sorrowful Jew of Amsterdam, cut off from his own people and leading a lonely and frustrated life..,For under a rather drab exterior there burned the inward glory, the clam clear light of mind that has looked upon the very face of God, and in the knowledge and in the intellectual love of God found peace and blessedness.

I wonder what character we'd have to represent a strong external purpose? Frugal, conscientious, wins approbation of powerful people, reliable.

After this, could there still be any serious argument against the claim that the introverted purpose is closer in tune with the higher purpose than the extroverted?

The purpose of Extroverted Morality is to bring order to society, the purpose of Introverted Morality is to perfect your nature. You tell me which of the two pertains to higher virtue.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

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Introverted purpose underlies external morality. Introverted Judgment is about how you can become the best person possible (much like what Socrates and Confucius taught), Extroverted Judgment is about how you can best contribute to society.
It is arbitrary to say that one is better than the other. The notion that one is better comes from your own personal prefernce rather than by any objective means.

I wonder what character we'd have to represent a strong external purpose?
How about Winston Churchill as an extraverted thinker, and Dr. Martin Luther King as an extraverted feeler? Both can definitely be viewed as having a higher purpose. In fact I believe the public at large appreciates the contributions of these two individuals over Milton and Spinoza. :harhar: But I prefer not to say that one way is better than other. The world needs both introverted judgers and extraverted judgers, so there is no objective way to say that one way is "higher" than the other.

EDIT: In fact both types would be quite clueless if they didn't occasionally listen to the perceiving oriented types. ;)
 

SolitaryWalker

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It is arbitrary to say that one is better than the other. The notion that one is better comes from your own personal prefernce rather than by any objective means.


How about Winston Churchill as an extraverted thinker, and Dr. Martin Luther King as an extraverted feeler? Both can definitely be viewed as having a higher purpose. In fact I believe the public at large appreciates the contributions of these two individuals over Milton and Spinoza. :harhar: But I prefer not to say that one way is better than other. The world needs both introverted judgers and extraverted judgers, so there is no objective way to say that one way is "higher" than the other.

EDIT: In fact both types would be quite clueless if they didn't occasionally listen to the perceiving oriented types. ;)


I am thinking Winston Churchill was an ENTP. Not exactly an extroverted thinker, though close enoguh as I see your point.

I dont think good is what the public appreciates, that notion is rather extroverted and is what opens the gate to moral relativism. I think good is an essence that dwells within one's character and could be recognized only from within. An external standard of what good is (whether or not public appreciates it) is not reliable because people are evil and stupid by their nature and are highly likely to wander into error attempting to figure out what good really is.

INPs are more likely to know what is really good because good comes from the inside and they are the types who do the best job of applying judgment to the inner world. (Hence introverted judgment)

People like Milton and Spinoza are the ones who came up with the best ideas to make the world a better place, extroverted thinkers were only implementors.

Yes, the world needs both introverted judgers and extroverted judgers. One to come up with ideas, the other to carry them out to the external world? Hmm, aren't we kind of getting the notion here that the cook is to be thought to be more important than the waiter?
 

The_Liquid_Laser

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I am thinking Winston Churchill was an ENTP. Not exactly an extroverted thinker, though close enoguh as I see your point.

I dont think good is what the public appreciates, that notion is rather extroverted and is what opens the gate to moral relativism. I think good is an essence that dwells within one's character and could be recognized only from within. An external standard of what good is (whether or not public appreciates it) is not reliable because people are evil and stupid by their nature and are highly likely to wander into error attempting to figure out what good really is.

INPs are more likely to know what is really good because good comes from the inside and they are the types who do the best job of applying judgment to the inner world. (Hence introverted judgment)

This conclusion is not logical. If you assume that people are evil and stupid by their nature then good cannot come from the inside. Making this assumption it is only logical to conclude that good must come from outside of man.

People like Milton and Spinoza are the ones who came up with the best ideas to make the world a better place, extroverted thinkers were only implementors.

Yes, the world needs both introverted judgers and extroverted judgers. One to come up with ideas, the other to carry them out to the external world? Hmm, aren't we kind of getting the notion here that the cook is to be thought to be more important than the waiter?

I think you are saying that the planter is more important than the harvester. :tongue10: I would say they are both equally important. :)
 

SolitaryWalker

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This conclusion is not logical. If you assume that people are evil and stupid by their nature then good cannot come from the inside. Making this assumption it is only logical to conclude that good must come from outside of man. :)

I am saying that people tend to be evil and stupid because their nature is to be externally focused. This would change if they turned inwards more. Here is my theory of evil in a nutshell: we cant find inner peace so we impose our presence on the external world, demanding that it appeases our whims. When we dont get out way we force the external world to conform to our whims without knowing exactly what we want. We dont know what we want because we dont know what we need in order for our inner being to be satisfied. And the reason why we dont know what our inner being needs in order to be satisfied is because we are not internally focused enough.

Socrates once said that ethics, in condensed form, is no more than the expansion of the 'know thyself' maxim. So, if you truly understand yourself and know all that you can be, you'll come to terms with your nature and therefore will be devoid of inner conflict. Then you will necessarily be good. So, this is more akin to saying that man is actually good by nature if he really is in tune with his nature. The more out of tune he is, the more evil he will be, as the greater the dissonance, the more negative energy he will exude onto the outer world.


I think you are saying that the planter is more important than the harvester. :tongue10: I would say they are both equally important. :)


From an extroverted perspective, yes, seems like you're thinking that important is tantamount to what benefits society. Ok, in that case, I agree that they are both important, but what good could implementors be if noone came up with ideas to be implemented to begin with? Spinoza and Milton may have influenced millions indirectly, through authorship and second hand authorship. They changed many lives because people have understood their ideas and incorporated them into their lifestyles. Implementors, at best could provide you with an external environment where it would be easier for you to access and implement those ideas. Indeed, the men of ideas are more instrumental at pushing the human race forward than men of affairs.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

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We are simply going back and forth saying the same thing in different ways. Whether you say it in several paragraphs or in two sentences you are essentially saying, "INP's are not arrogant. We are simply better than everyone else." :rolli:
 

Recluse

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We are simply going back and forth saying the same thing in different ways. Whether you say it in several paragraphs or in two sentences you are essentially saying, "INP's are not arrogant. We are simply better than everyone else." :rolli:

And your point is . . . ?

The world would be a much better place if everyone were an INTP. Nothing would get done, but nobody would care.

Imagine: No more wars. Granted, plenty of concepts and inventions that could be used for devious purposes. But nobody who would be inclined to put them to use. Peace, peace at last! How can you possibly argue with the logic of that? ;)
 

INTJMom

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Obligations are such nuicances. Do any types not avoid or postpone obligatory tasks? My favorite method of avoidance is automation. Hooray for automation :party2: I want all my obligations to be automatically met, with no effort or attention from me.
The SJ type is the most likely to meet their responsibilities in a timely manner.
They tend to love responsibility.
They are usually the stalwarts of society.
 

INTJMom

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...this fine discrimination ability gives INTPs so inclined a natural advantage as, for example, grammarians and linguists.
This part of the INTP description made me think of Henry Higgins in My Fair Lady.
I was wondering what his type was.
INTP would fit him quite well.
 

INTJMom

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We are simply going back and forth saying the same thing in different ways. Whether you say it in several paragraphs or in two sentences you are essentially saying, "INP's are not arrogant. We are simply better than everyone else." :rolli:
Hmm..
Is that what he's saying?
Then I definitely disagree.

The INTPs I know are manipulative sociopaths.
and the INFPs deny truth and live in a world of lies and denial.
 
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ygolo

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Hmm..
Is that what he's saying?
Then I definitely disagree.
INTPs are the most likely type to be serial killers,
and INFPs deny truth and live in a world of lies and deceit.
(The ones I've studied anyway.)

I don't think BlueWing ought to be used as a representative for what INTPs are like or believe.

I would really like to understand where this visceral dislike of INPs in general comes from. Is it just a rebuttal to BlueWing's comments or something deeper? Please be honest.

Since you have been on this forum for a short time and have already made the "INTPs are the most likely type to be serial killers" comment as well as the "INFPs deny truth and live in a world of lies and deceit" and make it fairly easy to infer a great many are like that with the comment "The ones I've studied anyway", I consider you a great candidate to ask:

What makes you say that? I would genuinely like to know. Although it hurts, it confuses me even more.
 

SolitaryWalker

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I would really like to understand where this visceral dislike of INPs in general comes from. Is it just a rebuttal to BlueWing's comments or something deeper? Please be honest.


.

Why does it matter?

They dont support their arguments with sound reasoning, they obviously know not what they do or what they say.
 

INTJMom

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I don't think BlueWing ought to be used as a representative for what INTPs are like or believe.

I would really like to understand where this visceral dislike of INPs in general comes from. Is it just a rebuttal to BlueWing's comments or something deeper? Please be honest.

Since you have been on this forum for a short time and have already made the "INTPs are the most likely type to be serial killers" comment as well as the "INFPs deny truth and live in a world of lies and deceit" and make it fairly easy to infer a great many are like that with the comment "The ones I've studied anyway", I consider you a great candidate to ask:

What makes you say that? I would genuinely like to know. Although it hurts, it confuses me even more.
I'm terribly sorry to have hurt your feelings.
Obviously, my comment was not aimed at you personally.
Surely you have seen all the bad things people say about INTJs, as well.

What made me say that is because someone was trying to say that INTPs are the best humans available on the planet,
and I disagree based on my own personal experience.
The INTPs I know are manipulative sociopaths.
The ones I have met here since yesterday are rude.
I hardly think that a type so easily given to those behaviors could be rated across the board as the best type of human being there is -
I know that's not an exact quote.
He said: "INPs are more likely to know what is really good".
Well, okay, they may know it, but you can't prove to me that they act it out.

My visceral dislike of INTPs is that I hate being manipulated.

INFPs are fine people, but not when they lie and are dishonest with themselves and everyone around them because they don't want to be honest.
I don't understand why people would rather live a lie.

Since everyone here is sharing their points of view and opinions,
I figured I was entitled to mine as well.
I guess I'm running a little low on estrogen today.
 

SolitaryWalker

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I'm terribly sorry to have hurt your feelings.
Obviously, my comment was not aimed at you personally.
Surely you have seen all the bad things people say about INTJs, as well.

What made me say that is because someone was trying to say that INTPs are the best humans available on the planet,
and I disagree based on my own personal experience.
The INTPs I know are manipulative sociopaths.
The ones I have met here since yesterday are rude.
I hardly think that a type so easily given to those behaviors could be rated across the board as the best type of human being there is -
I know that's not an exact quote.
He said: "INPs are more likely to know what is really good".
Well, okay, they may know it, but you can't prove to me that they act it out.

My visceral dislike of INTPs is that I hate being manipulated.

INFPs are fine people, but not when they lie and are dishonest with themselves and everyone around them because they don't want to be honest.
I don't understand why people would rather live a lie.

Since everyone here is sharing their points of view and opinions,
I figured I was entitled to mine as well.
I guess I'm running a little low on estrogen today.


INTPs tend not to be manipulative, you must have had an inadequate sample. Either not large enough, or INTPs who are not representative of the archetypal quiddity of this temperament. Dominant Ti with a big picture view (Ne), should make you value honesty a great deal.
 
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