[ENTP] Help comprehending angry ENTP

[jenocyde]

This was hard for me to admit. Essentially it is using people to get something you haven't built inside. And since it comes only from other people it is never enough. In SolitaryWalker's book he talks about the self-effacing tendencies of ENTP's and this really hit home. This notion that orientation to the external is, in a sense, self-denying.

When ENXP's become unhappy they usually kneejerk and try to change their circumstances. I see this all the time. Externally focused people start with the outside world when they're miserable. They figure a new life will make them happy. New boyfriend, new job, new friends, new experiences. The growth comes from recognizing what the constant factor is in your unhappiness: YOU.

The thing that hurts more for the people who get used is realizing that they never really knew you. They never really stopped to consider the impact on you. In a way, you were never real. But, I wouldn't be angry at ENXP's because in the end you do not build anything by floating from flower to flower. In the end, you die alone and jaded. Untouched. Unknown.

Damn, you're right.

EDIT: But that can be said for all types though - that unhappiness stems from within... So how do you propose we change it?

 

[Synarch]

You know, the thing is that being extroverted means just that - that I look for external stimuli. But introverts do the opposite. You can make a case either way for which one causes more trouble... There is plenty of truth to what you are saying, but I've never felt this way around an INTx, for instance. So maybe I am just hanging out with all the wrong people. INTxs are so hard to find irl.

I think it's more the orientation of the subject to object.

About being idealistic. I can sympathize. I look at the world through rose colored lenses, too. And you are right about having that catalyst to creativity. I just don't get how that relates to your low self esteem. On a general level, I can understand it, but only in certain contexts. Like if I really like a guy and he doesn't call me or whatever - I can go through a (brief) period of self doubt. But other than that, I look at myself through rose colored glasses too, I guess.

Because by being idealistic I rob things of their nuances and complexity. I expect myself to be Superman instead of just a complex, yet human individual. Flawed and full of qualities at the same time.

 

[Synarch]

Damn, you're right.

EDIT: But that can be said for all types though - that unhappiness stems from within... So how do you propose we change it?

Dig deep. When you feel bad things grab that slippery snake and observe it. What hole did he come from? What is he about? Let it sit with you.

 

[jenocyde]

I see my flaws, but they just don't bother me. I accept myself the same way I do others - knowing that we are all human. I'm hopelessly head over heels over a man who feels he is flawed, but that's exactly what I like best about him. The realness, the lack of pretense. And that's actually what I like most about myself.

 

[Synarch]

I see my flaws, but they just don't bother me. I accept myself the same way I do others - knowing that we are all human. I'm hopelessly head over heels over a man who feels he is flawed, but that's exactly what I like best about him. The realness, the lack of pretense. And that's actually what I like most about myself.

I see flaws in myself, of course. It's part of being a selfish person. This tendency to focus on our own flaws. But the other flaws are harder to acknowledge and these are the ones that govern my relationships. Selfishness, fickleness, insensitivity, etc. I seem less aware of these. This why it is important for me to speak candidly with people who will be honest with me.

 

[jenocyde]

I see flaws in myself, of course. It's part of being a selfish person. This tendency to focus on our own flaws. But the other flaws are harder to acknowledge and these are the ones that govern my relationships. Selfishness, fickleness, insensitivity, etc. I seem less aware of these. This why it is important for me to speak candidly with people who will be honest with me.

I hear ya. It's good to keep yourself in check. And I can't do that alone yet. Currently, I still need people to make me aware of the level that I can affect a person. Because I am only aware of myself.

So, to bring it all back home - I rarely meet people that challenge or stimulate me, or encourage me to grow. So I withdraw and try to figure shit out. I analyze and break things apart and that causes further withdrawal. In a perfect world, I would have friends/loved ones that would encourage and be involved in my growth process, rather than me having to always be "on". I also speak candidly, but I need others around me to do the same. I rarely get it. But whatever.

 

[Synarch]

I hear ya. It's good to keep yourself in check. And I can't do that alone yet. Currently, I still need people to make me aware. So, to bring it all back home - I rarely meet people that challenge or stimulate me, or encourage me to grow. So I withdraw and try to figure shit out. I analyze and break things apart and that causes further withdrawal. In a perfect world, I would have friends/loved ones that would encourage and be involved in my growth process, rather than me having to always be "on". I also speak candidly, but I need others to do the same. I rarely get it. But whatever.

Do you give them enough time and attention to get to know you? Most people are not going to shoot their mouth off and risk giving the wrong idea. I am sure you might intimidate people who might be really good for you because they might be so different and take time to get comfy.

 

[jenocyde]

Do you give them enough time and attention to get to know you? Most people are not going to shoot their mouth off and risk giving the wrong idea. I am sure you might intimidate people who might be really good for you because they might be so different and take time to get comfy.

Possibly. Most likely.

Like I said, I don't know how I affect people - especially if they don't tell me. I can only assume that someone will just tell me whatever needs to be said, since I am not a mind reader.

 

[Synarch]

Possibly. Most likely.

Like I said, I don't know how I affect people - especially if they don't tell me. I can only assume that someone will just tell me whatever needs to be said, since I am not a mind reader.

Hmmmmmmm... I think it might be hard to do that for a lot of people. For me, it seems to take a few years before my friends are comfortable calling me out on things maybe because I am so defensive at first until I trust them.

 

[jenocyde]

Hmmmmmmm... I think it might be hard to do that for a lot of people. For me, it seems to take a few years before my friends are comfortable calling me out on things maybe because I am so defensive at first until I trust them.

I'm not defensive at all. But I will ask follow up questions which people get terrified of answering. No one ever wants to offend anyone... It's kind of ridiculous. But I get it, in principle.

Maybe they read my follow up questions as defensiveness? I don't know because they haven't told me. I can't figure out the world, but I will keep withdrawing/trying until I can gain some stable footing.

 

[jenocyde]

Synarch, I'm going to (withdraw) and think about what you said. I feel like something is resonating. Thanks once again, my brother.

 

[thisGuy]

I think there is this tendency in ENXP's to draw what they need internally from the world around them. This makes them prone to chasing highs, getting bored, and generally getting into trouble because that which makes you not bored, I think, has to come from within.

I don't know where my low self-esteem comes from. Maybe from a feeling of perfectionism and being too idealistic (aka unrealistic) about myself and the world. Ironically, it's also what drives me to do neat things and be creative. I create my best stuff when I at war with myself and the world. So, go figure.

bolded part? that has to be the truest shit i have ever heard, especailly for extroverts and probably one of the more difficult things for ENTPs to admit as brings them down in relation to everyone else around them

why would being idealistic bring your self-esteem down? thats the only thing in the above post that doesn't make sense to me (or resonate with me)...shouldn't it be empowering to be doing the 'right thing'? especially as an ENTP who is probably prone to one-up-manship and values one-upping unconventionalism (in self) more

i am pretty idealistic too...and as recently as two weeks ago, i have had to admit that the problem with ideals is that they are not ideal AT ALL

 

[Synarch]

why would being idealistic bring your self-esteem down? thats the only thing in the above post that doesn't make sense to me (or resonate with me)...shouldn't it be empowering to be doing the 'right thing'? especially as an ENTP who is probably prone to one-up-manship and values one-upping unconventionalism (in self) more

Because since I focus on my idealized self, I can't be happy with my real self. When you are too idealistic it makes it difficult to be happy with the way things really are.

 

[Synarch]

Synarch, I'm going to (withdraw) and think about what you said. I feel like something is resonating. Thanks once again, my brother.

You're welcome. Good luck.

In the end, it's just life. To get what we want, we have to look inside no matter how unnatural that is.

 

[thisGuy]

Because since I focus on my idealized self, I can't be happy with my real self. When you are too idealistic it makes it difficult to be happy with the way things really are.

right...that would be your perfectionist self re-enforcing the idealism...for some reason, that is empowering to me. to me, its about improving and not totally about reprimand (and as a consequence, succumbing to pity?). reprimand is required to make yourself realize what you can be...but why should that bring you down when your not-so-perfect self is still way better than most things around you

only way i can see one as having low self-esteem while being an idealist is when you DON'T WORK towards improving yourself when you know you can and you should. that would give you a low sense of self-worth since you are indulging yourself in a behavior that does not sit well with your sense of self, but is still what you are displaying to the world; and therefore what you are defined by...consequently defined as your 'real' self. 'real' is a relative term.

also, i found that i'm better at coming to terms with depressing situations if i am with people. i can do it by myself but it takes way longer. i need external input and different viewpoints

 

[onemoretime]

bolded part? that has to be the truest shit i have ever heard, especailly for extroverts and probably one of the more difficult things for ENTPs to admit as brings them down in relation to everyone else around them

The big problem with that is that this problem, while perhaps temporarily sating you, will not bring contentment or joy. To make a strange video game analogy (I tend to be good at those), it's like on the game Chrono Trigger, when you're in the future and use one of the machines to reenergize yourself, but it always brings the text "but you're still hungry..." (as an apocalypse has destroyed the ability of the earth to produce food).

I think this is where the "inventor" part is - you'll only be happy when forced to introvert when you manipulate the interior world in a similar sense as you naturally do the outside world. This is where I think writing and drawing does well for us - it allows us to take those internal concepts and extend it to the extraverted world, where Ne can go to work and find its satisfaction. It's also why, even though we do not immediately like it and can think it a waste of time, revising and editing things we've already worked on ('tinkering' with it) can be a great source of satisfaction.

Because since I focus on my idealized self, I can't be happy with my real self. When you are too idealistic it makes it difficult to be happy with the way things really are.

Hah, I know what you're talking about. I think I got myself into a six-year funk at the start of college/university, when it was easy to indulge Ne and the Si coping mechanism for getting through childhood/adolescence had a big problem with that. I can see where people came up with the idea of total depravity of mankind - it was a representation of their realization of their disillusionment with their self-concept.

It's true, we're all a bunch of babbling sacks of shit. The difference is when you come to realize that you're a babbling sack of shit that happens to be good at a few things. That'll bring you relief, but not necessarily happiness.

In my estimation, happiness comes when you realize that even for all these flaws, people do genuinely love you, and more importantly, you do genuinely (and seemingly irrationally) love other people, and it's in this that we establish significance in life. Look at the older ENTPs that we've been able to come in contact with - the content ones have a love affair with the whole world, while the curmudgeonly ones are not angry - just disappointed that what they care about so much still can't seem to get its act together. That doesn't mean that there isn't a sense of great joy when it does happen.

 

[iwakar]

Completely productive derail. These are the best kinds.

 

[jenocyde]

The big problem with that is that this problem, while perhaps temporarily sating you, will not bring contentment or joy.

You are under the assumption that happiness = longevity. Or that people are constant. All emotions are temporary.

It's true, we're all a bunch of babbling sacks of shit. The difference is when you come to realize that you're a babbling sack of shit that happens to be good at a few things. That'll bring you relief, but not necessarily happiness.

Sometimes relief is better than happiness. Happiness is volatile while relief seems to be comforting.

In my estimation, happiness relief comes when you realize that even for all these flaws, people do genuinely love you, and more importantly, you do genuinely (and seemingly irrationally) love other people, and it's in this that we establish significance in life. Look at the older ENTPs that we've been able to come in contact with - the content ones have a love affair with the whole world, while the curmudgeonly ones are not angry - just disappointed that what they care about so much still can't seem to get its act together. That doesn't mean that there isn't a sense of great joy relief when it does happen.

fixed.


Iwak - I knew you would appreciate this!

 

[Intricate Mystic]

It doesn't always work that way. We are not all just hopping from one adventure to the next. We are capable of deeply loving and committed relationships. We can also be pricks, like any person when they are immature. Sorry that you got hurt by an immature prick.

Thanks, Jenocyde. I realize that my ENTP was a bad one. They had a lot of major issues. That was part of the fascination for me, actually. INFJ's and messed up people.... I should have just run as fast as possible in the other direction when I first met them!

This was hard for me to admit. Essentially it is using people to get something you haven't built inside. And since it comes only from other people it is never enough. In SolitaryWalker's book he talks about the self-effacing tendencies of ENTP's and this really hit home. This notion that orientation to the external is, in a sense, self-denying.

I actually relate to the external focus and self-denying, because of Fe.

When ENXP's become unhappy they usually kneejerk and try to change their circumstances. I see this all the time. Externally focused people start with the outside world when they're miserable.They figure a new life will make them happy. New boyfriend, new job, new friends, new experiences. The growth comes from recognizing what the constant factor is in your unhappiness: YOU.

I just realized you said ENXP here... my mother is an ENFP. You have just explained yet another major issue in my life... my mother's constant need to move to a new place! I lived in multiple states growing up, and being a shy INFJ, having to make friends all over again at a new school every 2 years (on average) made my childhood and teenage years really awful.

The idea that happiness comes from within is something I need to really contemplate and pound into my head.

You've got lots of wisdom. I'm going to start calling you YODA.

The thing that hurts more for the people who get used is realizing that they never really knew you. They never really stopped to consider the impact on you. In a way, you were never real. But, I wouldn't be angry at ENXP's because in the end you do not build anything by floating from flower to flower. In the end, you die alone and jaded. Untouched. Unknown.

In my case, I made sure the ENTP knew about some of their impact on me.

Jenocyde mentioned your INFJ girlfriend... I would think she could get to your inner self, so you wouldn't be untouched and unknown. We have skillz.

 

[onemoretime]

You are under the assumption that happiness = longevity. Or that people are constant. All emotions are temporary.

This is very true. At the same time, you'd agree that it's rather resigned to not being workable, wouldn't you? That simply accepting that emotions are transient may preclude a greater understanding of them? It's somewhat like quanta - yes, their transience is completely characteristic of them. There may not be any constancy, but there are trends - and it's in those trends that the bigger picture can be seen. Someone I'd qualify as "happy" or "content" may be sad from time to time, but can always appreciate the things in life that make it worthwhile.

Sometimes relief is better than happiness. Happiness is volatile while relief seems to be comforting.

I'm not so sure about that. Once again, in our particular circumstances, we're dealing with a relationship between the extraverted and introverted worlds that can be often confusing. I'd say that while relief is comforting, it's rarely satisfying, as we're not primarily oriented toward our own inner world, and we still find someway of extraverting the process (such as how even though we move on from things quickly, we still analyze them to see how things could have worked differently).

I'd also say relief is transient as well - there's always some new disaster to rear its ugly head. Not only that, but I don't know if relief and comfort are always concurrent - giving up on a difficult task due to small roadblocks can be relieving, but rarely is comforting, possibly due to FeSi implications (which leads me to another thought - are the tert and inf the seat of comfort, while the aux and tert the seat of actualization? If so, this makes the tert way more important than its place may suggest).

fixed

.

I guess that this once again is a fine distinction of different terminology. The point I guess I was making was that "happiness" (which you can define as contentment, satisfaction or comfortable acceptance) comes from the reconciliation of your tert Fe - that you're not complete as a person without loving others and enjoying good relationships with them, and that this requires work.

Likewise, I wouldn't characterize it as solely a sense of relief when we watch a kid finally get something - there may be a sense of relief at the beginning when we realize our work is finished, but I find in my experience it quickly gives way to the joy of recognition of one's own pleasures in another's experience. I'm elated to watch a child learn something because I remember how much pleasure it brought me to learn things at their age, and am overjoyed that I helped bring that to someone else.