[NT] INTJ-ENTP mistyping

[Verfremdungseffekt]

A good example of this -- Verity give me strength -- is Doctor Who.

As a character, through all his varied incarnations, the Doctor is clearly ENTP. Yet the first Doctor, William Hartnell, is a real oddball.

Hartnell's Doctor starts off as the most cold, bitter, callous INTJ you could imagine. He's even worse in the unaired pilot episode. Yet as the show goes on, his traveling companions -- particularly Barbara and Steven -- slowly humanize him. He grows healthier, more responsible, and more affectionate. By the end, he has shifted more obviously into ENTP territory, where he has remained ever since.

I think McCoy may be showing a bit of the shadow again (which makes sense, as his portrayal was a deliberate cross between Hartnell and Troughton). And Eccleston has his flashes. Still, it's pretty clear where they sit.

 

[sculpting]

I would never describe myself as stylish unless "obliviousness" is considered a style.

My natural charm makes up for this, of course.

I think maybe it's the odd confident, tertairy Fe charmy, sexy thing too, combined with flip flops.

Do you think you can come here with your shit you steal from foreign subforums and still think you are cool ? Really man, you bring out my Karate-Monster

My Ne-Monster will so kick your karate monster's ass. He has special connective capabilities. You're screwed. Likely, literally cause you're an ENTP.

I have an uncle who is undoubtedly an NT (willing to give up his highly specialized medical doctor career to learn long-distance trucking because he is bored, if only my INFJ aunt would let him).

He's either an INTJ or an ENTP and I can't tell which. He's sort of like Night. I can't tell if he's a Te user or a Ti user; I can't tell if he's an intravert or extravert. It's very weird because there's no way he's INTP and he's not take-charge enough to be ENTJ.

INTJ or ENTP. Hmmm. You'd think you could tell. But Night gets confused about his own type a little (yes it's all bunk, but yah know).

I'd guess an ENTP. My INTJs never seem to quit anything. really, I feel bad for them about this. Just give up.... you know you want toooooo... If the rest of humanity is a herd of cattle, the INTJ walks in front of the stampeding herd, looks up, and says STOP, stupid cows. If the INTJs shift course, it seems to be a huge life changing event for them. They agonize over it. But maybe I am wrong as I only have a n=9 or so of the INTJs.

 

[thisGuy]

its true...i can be very INTJ-like sometimes, especially when im dealing with stressful situations in a healthy way...its awesome cuz i actually get shit done and Ne doesn't keep jumping backyards

the difference between Ne/Ti and Ni/Te, as i have noticed in myself, is too obvious and too awesome...especially Te, because when that bastard comes out, i can climb mount everest or send my best bud running to find a rock to cry behind...Ni/Te is soooo driven and asshole-like

now all i need to do is need to find the switch to turn intj on and off

 

[Mondo]

I'd argue that it is a misinterpretation of personality traits.

People tend to associate Introversion/Extraversion with making the difference in assertiveness and leadership.
However, it's Judging/Perceiving which creates the difference for the most part..

I know INTJ's who are infinitely more assertive than I am. I'll be the one to speak a little too much and show my dominance in a social scene but it's the INTJ who is more likely to actually take the reins of leadership..

The ENTP is sociable, assertive, but easygoing.
The INTJ is more aggressive but not that sociable at all.

For instance, I'd say that Dr. House is an INTJ.
He doesn't really show any sign of Extraversion.
House is a smart guy and knows that by acting more Extraverted- he can do more of what he wants to do.. but I think he's naturally Introverted and Judging.

To be fair, House is fictional and I think it often matters by the writers.. some make him more Introverted and others more Extraverted.
I'm an ENTP and I don't entirely identify with House..

 

[onemoretime]

Did he really wrote the entps want to have sex with you ? In the NT forums ?

I mean ok, I admit, we entps have accepted you other 3 types for a long time now in this subforum and we are utterly thankful that you did aswell. But that sentence that was so stolen from the SP forums really.

Do you think you can come here with your shit you steal from foreign subforums and still think you are cool ? Really man, you bring out my Karate-Monster

You have to admit it's true though... don't you have a running tally of the different qualities of people you've slept with, just so you can see what it's like for each?

I mean, we'll eventually get around to finding a soulmate, but damn, there are way too many interesting lovers in the world

 

[Qre:us]

They're each other's shadow.

INTJ cognitive function order:
Ni-Te-Fi-Se

ENTP cognitive function order:
Ne-Ti-Fe-Si

The two are very similar because of their function order. The introverted and extroverted forms of any given function often have a fair deal in common. And, of course, as they are shadows of each other, a person of one type can "become" a negative form of the other, given stress.

^ This is very accurate from my personal experience. I don't know about my shadow ISFJ ever coming out, but, I can definitely recall my inner-INTJ. It's not pretty. At. All. But, it's ruthless in how it gets shit done, which is why it comes out when I have no other options but to revert to this high-stress form of myself.

 

[Edgar]

I have an uncle who is undoubtedly an NT (willing to give up his highly specialized medical doctor career to learn long-distance trucking because he is bored, if only my INFJ aunt would let him).

He's either an INTJ or an ENTP and I can't tell which. He's sort of like Night. I can't tell if he's a Te user or a Ti user; I can't tell if he's an intravert or extravert. It's very weird because there's no way he's INTP and he's not take-charge enough to be ENTJ.

INTJ or ENTP. Hmmm. You'd think you could tell. But Night gets confused about his own type a little (yes it's all bunk, but yah know).

If an NT does something seemingly ludicrous because he is "bored" (i.e. driving a cab with a PhD or learning trucking with an MD), chances are he is an INTP.

 

[Verfremdungseffekt]

That's probably right, at least in terms of the lack of reasonable direction.

It'll be an NTP, anyway.

 

[Mondo]

Sometimes ENTP are odd for me to understand.
They can be the life of the party (and if they are, it's uncommon to mistype them for intj), but they are also descripted often as the most introvert of extravert...

Yes, we can seem like that.
If you look at it from the Keirseyan perspective, ENTP's are still very much NT. They dislike many of the social customs which keep so many people comfortable. An ENTP's energy is directed to the outside world. They can seem Introverted, since they won't deal with everyone.

I know I have the tendency to be very outgoing around some and more reserved around others...some people would type me as an Extravert and others would type me as an Introvert- even though I'm naturally Extraverted.

Sometimes, it's because the other person is much more talkative and assertive than I am and I'm simply genuinely interested in what he or she has to say- so I don't say much. However, I make up by being an eager listener and joining in on conversation- even if the other person dominates it.

For most people though I'm not a chatterbox with, it's because I'm not interested in them at all...I do a pretty good job of clarifying the difference between, "I'm not saying much because I'm interested in what you're saying." and "I'm not saying much because you're boring me or are an asshole."

You have to look at how the person thinks. I'm often tempted to think aloud. I find that it helps me come to a clearer answer to 'hear my thoughts'.

 

[sculpting]

its true...i can be very INTJ-like sometimes, especially when im dealing with stressful situations in a healthy way...its awesome cuz i actually get shit done and Ne doesn't keep jumping backyards

the difference between Ne/Ti and Ni/Te, as i have noticed in myself, is too obvious and too awesome...especially Te, because when that bastard comes out, i can climb mount everest or send my best bud running to find a rock to cry behind...Ni/Te is soooo driven and asshole-like

I have a tertiary Te. When someone hurts my feelings they get an immediate lash of Te, which I am working to gain a better control on. When someone offends puts my idealistic mission at risk, they get an ENTJ. I will hand them thier ass on a platter.

I was having a conversation with jeno awhile back.
ENFPs will feel profoundly rejected if we open up, offer an emotion to someone we find worthy and they dismiss it without consideration. This can result in a Te bitch slap or a Te induced drive to prove that person wrong. "Fuck them, I'll show them style" attitude in response to the pain of rejection. It has served me well.

ENTPs feel equally rejected if they open up, offer an idea to someone they find worthy and it is dismissed without consideration. It feels like rejection as well-however what do you guys slap back with? Fe? Do you charm/insult them to death? Doesn't seem so effective. Maybe this could trigger the psuedoINTJ to come out?

I mean, we'll eventually get around to finding a soulmate, but damn, there are way too many interesting lovers in the world

You guys are adorable. There is merit in honesty. and variety

 

[thisGuy]

ENTPs feel equally rejected if they open up, offer an idea to someone they find worthy and it is dismissed without consideration. It feels like rejection as well-however what do you guys slap back with? Fe? Do you charm/insult them to death? Doesn't seem so effective. Maybe this could trigger the psuedoINTJ to come out?

depends on the person...if i think they are worthy to locks horns with or not

i can be fairly fairly passive aggressive in the sense that im gonna keep doing whatever i do leaving them to react however they will...usually throws NFs into a whirlwind and way off base...but takes a while to accomplish

INTJ usually comes out when i tell myself that i need to sit my ass down and finish this project or sometimes when people mistake Fe for flattery and need Te directness


the above does NOT cover romantic relationships...completely different in those sits

 

[onemoretime]

You guys are adorable. There is merit in honesty. and variety

Much appreciated. I try.

Re: that conversation with jeno in the same post -

Yeah, I think you're right about the difference in emotions and ideas being the key triggers for that response. I think you're right about Fe being the primary retaliator in those situations; the sequence tends to be something like "oh my god, people are going to think I'm a moron. you've got to retaliate to defend your position, and do it smoothly", which seems to be a Ti-Fe tag team there, usually leading to a sarcastic remark about a weak point (thank you Ne) to reduce the person's social standing, though often I'll say nothing at all, then badmouth him behind his back (because direct confrontation would just lead to scorched earth tactics - and that's bad for everyone).

I think the key distinction is in your phrase - "fuck them, I'll prove them wrong". I find that the operating theme for me and perhaps for ENTPs in general is "how dare that asshole... he's going down". One's on a more operative level, the other on a more personal level.

 

[sculpting]

Much appreciated. I try.

Re: that conversation with jeno in the same post -

Yeah, I think you're right about the difference in emotions and ideas being the key triggers for that response. I think you're right about Fe being the primary retaliator in those situations; the sequence tends to be something like "oh my god, people are going to think I'm a moron. you've got to retaliate to defend your position, and do it smoothly", which seems to be a Ti-Fe tag team there, usually leading to a sarcastic remark about a weak point (thank you Ne) to reduce the person's social standing, though often I'll say nothing at all, then badmouth him behind his back (because direct confrontation would just lead to scorched earth tactics - and that's bad for everyone).

I think the key distinction is in your phrase - "fuck them, I'll prove them wrong". I find that the operating theme for me and perhaps for ENTPs in general is "how dare that asshole... he's going down". One's on a more operative level, the other on a more personal level.

That's funny. My ENTP and I tag team the groups on the projects we are leading at work. We will both become very frustrated at push back or laziness. I will turn up Te to drive people and inspire them. They quickly go into retreat and run to her, thinking "she is so motherly and calm". She is actually using Fe to plot thier downfall. She then traps them in all of the systems they helped create and gives them no option but to move forward.

It took us awhile to figure this out and I would get so mad at her for being so "nice", when I was so upset. I cant see through the Fe facade.

 

[sculpting]

It took us awhile to figure this out and I would get so mad at her for being so "nice", when I was so upset. I cant see through the Fe facade.

Actually if I may quote myself...

This has been a point really bugging me as of late with you guys-entps.

When an ESTP uses tertiary Fe, I can "feel" it. I can tell when they are playing me, when they are really trying to be nice or when they truley feel some level of short term emo connectivity. My brain sees it, perceives it, and has all the proper "warning tags" associated with it to let me know it isn't Fi in any way. Enjoy it but understand it for what it is. It's just play. I could sleep with one of these guys ands walk away with no confusion. It is very easy to catagorize.

I dont know why, but with ENTPs I can't "feel" the difference. I can sort of feel when I am getting played or manipulated, but it has to be really overt with you guys. I also take your overtures of friendship at face value.

In the past month i have gotten burned several times by different entps-not so much by the results of the interaction-but just by being in awe that I couldnt recoginize they were not sincere. Even with my best friend above. I couldnt see the insincerity. She had to actually explain she wasnt being nice, as to me it looked perfectly nice.

Am I missing a piece of brain? Are there signs to watch out for that I havent been paying attention to? I am sort of lacking Fe.

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

Actually if I may quote myself...

This has been a point really bugging me as of late with you guys-entps.

When an ESTP uses tertiary Fe, I can "feel" it. I can tell when they are playing me, when they are really trying to be nice or when they truley feel some level of short term emo connectivity. My brain sees it, perceives it, and has all the proper "warning tags" associated with it to let me know it isn't Fi in any way. Enjoy it but understand it for what it is. It's just play. I could sleep with one of these guys ands walk away with no confusion. It is very easy to catagorize.

I dont know why, but with ENTPs I can't "feel" the difference. I can sort of feel when I am getting played or manipulated, but it has to be really overt with you guys. I also take your overtures of friendship at face value.

In the past month i have gotten burned several times by different entps-not so much by the results of the interaction-but just by being in awe that I couldnt recoginize they were not sincere. Even with my best friend above. I couldnt see the insincerity. She had to actually explain she wasnt being nice, as to me it looked perfectly nice.

Am I missing a piece of brain? Are there signs to watch out for that I havent been paying attention to? I am sort of lacking Fe.

I'm not sure what answer to give. What's the difference between nice and "nice"?

 

[thisGuy]

I dont know why, but with ENTPs I can't "feel" the difference. I can sort of feel when I am getting played or manipulated, but it has to be really overt with you guys. I also take your overtures of friendship at face value.

In the past month i have gotten burned several times by different entps-not so much by the results of the interaction-but just by being in awe that I couldnt recoginize they were not sincere. Even with my best friend above. I couldnt see the insincerity. She had to actually explain she wasnt being nice, as to me it looked perfectly nice.

Am I missing a piece of brain? Are there signs to watch out for that I havent been paying attention to? I am sort of lacking Fe.

maybe everything you cant figure, you label as ENTP? or everything ENTP is satan with a halo hiding his face?

OR

you can't pick up on it because it appeals to your N? would make sense to me...i can relate to what you said about being able to see right through the fluff with certain types...my INTP and ENTJ buddies are the only people who can tell when im being sincere but with an agenda...even the INTP has that confused look on his face sometimes

 

[jenocyde]

Much appreciated. I try.

Re: that conversation with jeno in the same post -

Yeah, I think you're right about the difference in emotions and ideas being the key triggers for that response. I think you're right about Fe being the primary retaliator in those situations; the sequence tends to be something like "oh my god, people are going to think I'm a moron. you've got to retaliate to defend your position, and do it smoothly", which seems to be a Ti-Fe tag team there, usually leading to a sarcastic remark about a weak point (thank you Ne) to reduce the person's social standing, though often I'll say nothing at all, then badmouth him behind his back (because direct confrontation would just lead to scorched earth tactics - and that's bad for everyone).

I think the key distinction is in your phrase - "fuck them, I'll prove them wrong". I find that the operating theme for me and perhaps for ENTPs in general is "how dare that asshole... he's going down". One's on a more operative level, the other on a more personal level.

My Fe payback is all about manipulation and assassination, I won't waste my time arguing with someone. It's like playing chess.

My ESTJ friend and I met these guys who were fun at first, but turned creepy. One guy got too weird and creepy for my taste and for some reason, I got less assertive and more introverted around him. I used Fe to give him a chance to "get the hint" without directly offending him. Well, he didn't get the hint and pushed even further and greatly offended us. I then used my Fe to smile sweetly in his face while plotting the most elaborate payback scheme known to man in order to burn his stupid ass to the ground. I didn't lie or steal - but I knew his weak spots and took advantage of every situation that presented itself. By the end of the day, his whole community had shunned him and he was a broken mess, but he never knew that it was my doing. The worst part is that the ESTJ had no idea that this was a huge manipulation scheme, either. She saw what I allowed her to see and I left the final piece laying out in the open, waiting for her to pick it up. Which she did, and she was entirely convinced that it was her own idea. To this day, she still laughs about how clever she was, and I laugh along with her. I can be really sick sometimes.

 

[sculpting]

My Fe payback is all about manipulation and assassination, I won't waste my time arguing with someone. It's like playing chess.

My ESTJ friend and I met these guys who were fun at first, but turned creepy. One guy got too weird and creepy for my taste and for some reason, I got less assertive and more introverted around him. I used Fe to give him a chance to "get the hint" without directly offending him. Well, he didn't get the hint and pushed even further and greatly offended us. I then used my Fe to smile sweetly in his face while plotting the most elaborate payback scheme known to man in order to burn his stupid ass to the ground. I didn't lie or steal - but I knew his weak spots and took advantage of every situation that presented itself. By the end of the day, his whole community had shunned him and he was a broken mess, but he never knew that it was my doing. The worst part is that the ESTJ had no idea that this was a huge manipulation scheme, either. She saw what I allowed her to see and I left the final piece laying out in the open, waiting for her to pick it up. Which she did, and she was entirely convinced that it was her own idea. To this day, she still laughs about how clever she was, and I laugh along with her. I can be really sick sometimes.

So why not just tell him to go fuck off? Why destroy him covertly? (I mean he may have of course deserved it so no judgement, more a question of operational tactics)

 

[jenocyde]

So why not just tell him to go fuck off? Why destroy him covertly? (I mean he may have of course deserved it so no judgement, more a question of operational tactics)

I can't explain it. I tell someone to fuck off if I was offended personally. But if someone does something to someone I care about, it's on. It happened to us, not just to me. At that point, he must suffer and she must feel empowered, hence the manipulation of both parties.

 

[Synarch]

I dont know why, but with ENTPs I can't "feel" the difference. I can sort of feel when I am getting played or manipulated, but it has to be really overt with you guys. I also take your overtures of friendship at face value.

Maybe they're not disingenuous. The best way to lie is to convince yourself of whatever you want someone else to believe. But, then it ceases to become a lie and becomes more of a willed disillusion. The ENTP reality distortion field. Usually, it's used for good, but I can see it being used for bad, especially if judged in retrospect.

Also, maybe you haven't considered that feelings can change very quickly and capriciously and some people can move on very quickly.

So why not just tell him to go fuck off? Why destroy him covertly? (I mean he may have of course deserved it so no judgement, more a question of operational tactics)

I react to true danger in a covert way whenever possible. The best revenge is when the target is left wondering where it came from and you can enjoy it from afar. They know, but they don't know. You know?

Overt challenges are too hard to control and control is critical above all. Too hard to control your degree of anger, too hard to control the outcome.