• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[NT] NT! Why are you ASSHOLES?

INTPness

New member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
2,157
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
I love all of you NF's and NT's. As long as you're being constructive, then we can get along. Come on...group hug everyone. The NF's should probably lead the hug-giving ceremony though, or we might end up with the NT's explaining why hugs aren't logical. :doh:
 

sculpting

New member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
4,148
I tried that debate with several Feelers, but it went nowhere because they explicitly said that to them, the intent is irrelevant and so is my point of view. They FEEL that I've hurt them, and that's that, and no explanation can take that away, even if the explantion makes it clear and totally proves that they simply misunderstood the situation and that no malice or "badness" was actually going on. Yes, several Feelers have said to me that this is the way they think. So, what can you do then?

I hear you. I have had Ts hurt my feelings in the past. The best was when my favorite INTJ told me I'd have finished my pHd if I wasnt so lazy and worked harder. I stopped for five seconds in shock. Then I just laughed hysterically. She was correct and didnt mean to be an ass, but that's just who she is. I have developed my T filter which takes what you guys say, contextualizes it, then processes it.

Maybe I hang too much with NTs though, as touchy feeler nicities do annoy me. I need honest critical thought. I find ISFJs to be the hardest to convince this to. However I may overuse Te...
 

substitute

New member
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
MBTI Type
ENTP
True to both. On the other hand, I think that this is one of most useful purposes of forums like this. Knowledge is only valuable if it can be put to use. In real life, there are not nearly as many types people in each of our immediate circles to discuss things with and see how they react. It is also easier here because it is more impersonal and we don't have a history of misunderstandings in real life.

So what is the purpose of discussing issues here if there isn't some kind of practical application in our individual lives?

True, but those applications and suggestions need to take into account that the majority of the people "out there" are not going to be as mature or patient or wise as they would like to be, and in most cases, not as much as they THINK they already are.

So, advising someone to approach something in a wise and prudent manner is one thing. But it needs to be acknowledged that the other person is going to do whatever comes most easily to them.

Ever been in one of those times when someone puts you down and makes fun of you in front of other people? He says such witty gems as "you're such a dickhead! you're an idiot, you're such a FAG!" and you can be as wise as you like, and give as perfect answers as you like, but he'll still just come back with "yeah, but you're still a FAG!" and his friends will all laugh and you'll still be left looking like the idiot.

To a lesser extreme, this is what daily interactions with people mostly consist of. In my experience, anyway. That's why I'm gradually moving towards a slightly jaded kind of view of life... what's the point me putting in all this effort and trying my damnedest to be the best person I know how to be, if the other people around me just aren't making the effort?

What'm I sposed to do? Walk away from all of them and spend all my time alone until I find a perfect community of mature and decent people who all make as much effort to do right by others as I do? Cos that'd put me in for a loooong, looonely old time!

It's easier from my POV to just avoid F's, quite frankly... sure, I still have disagreements with T's, but the difference is that they can almost always be worked out and solved within minutes, very seldom does it take more than 24 hours before we're buds again. But, for whatever the reasons, I feel as though with most F's, it's a case of walking on egg shells because if I just make a single mistake, it'll all go down hill from there because no matter how hard I try to sort it out, everything I say will just be used against me, twisted, or just plain misunderstood, and will only make the situation worse.

And a guy can only take so much of being called an asshole when he was trying his best.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
I agree with you that we certainly don't live in an ideal world. I think the value of spending time with those we don't understand, even if it is exhausting is that they make up a significant amount of the population (so even in selfish terms this benefits us personally and professionally) and they also open another dimension to the world that we need.

When Feelers go to T country it is like me going to Germany and needing to understand that bluntness does not equal mean-ness. It is the tourist's job to adjust their perceptions as well as communications. After they learn how to "translate" this behaviour and get practice doing it, it is much easier to smoothly transition between the two, even if there is some adjustment involved. However it does help to have a tour guide who can orient the person to their new surroundings and help them know how to go on. Maybe this is sometimes what is missing. Feelers do need to point out where the landmines are in their country and immature ones often just expect others to know and get upset and unreasonable when they don't. Immature thinkers on the other hand, will sometimes watch Feelers trip over invisible wire and then sit back and laugh.
 

substitute

New member
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
MBTI Type
ENTP
I hear you. I have had Ts hurt my feelings in the past. The best was when my favorite INTJ told me I'd have finished my pHd if I wasnt so lazy and worked harder. I stopped for five seconds in shock. Then I just laughed hysterically. She was correct and didnt mean to be an ass, but that's just who she is. I have developed my T filter which takes what you guys say, contextualizes it, then processes it.

Maybe I hang too much with NTs though, as touchy feeler nicities do annoy me. I need honest critical thought. I find ISFJs to be the hardest to convince this to. However I may overuse Te...

See, that comment? I wouldn't have batted a single eyelid. I'd have said a completely unperturbed "yeah..." cos I'd have known that the INTJ was just trying to point out some useful information, the acknowledgement and internalization of which would help solve my problem.
 

Scott N Denver

New member
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Messages
2,898
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
specific traits or behaviors that I can think of that probably would turn typical non-NT's off to NT's [and to NTJ's in particular]: being nitpicky, critical, cold, harsh, condescending, uninterested in others, uninterested in helping others, seeing people as only means to an end, not showing any interest in other people on any sort of personal level, being in something only for themselves, not willing to pitch in for the team from time to time, seeing other people as adversaries, treating other people as potential threats or rivals, viewing dealing with other people as an invasion of their independence, having a conversational style described as "terse to the point of rudeness", ignoring your boss or people above them because you disagree with their choice for whatever reasons, being unwilling to do things in situations where if that NT was in charge they would have made a different choice [sort of a "my way or the highway"], being disrespectful of other people and their time because they are "less important" or "lower on the totem pole" than you, treating people like they are too stupid and/or uninformed for you to deal with on an equal level, the air that you have various nefarious plans in your head that you won't share with others until you betray them or stab them in the back, not respecting authority and the chains of authority

Whether the above perceptions are FAIR or not, I think they might be somewhat common issues for NT's dealing with typical non-NT's. Some are probably much less common than others. A number of those are probably more likely to annoy F's than to annoy T's or especially TJ's. Obviously, not all NT's or NTJ's do all of the above. Also, NT's may not consider their behavior to be described by the above things, but others might anyways. Different people will interpret those words differently, for example what qualifies as rude or as condescending?
 

BlahBlahNounBlah

New member
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
1,458
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w6
I love all of you NF's and NT's. As long as you're being constructive, then we can get along. Come on...group hug everyone. The NF's should probably lead the hug-giving ceremony though, or we might end up with the NT's explaining why hugs aren't logical. :doh:


I love an excuse to hug illogically. :hug:
 

BlahBlahNounBlah

New member
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
1,458
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w6
See, that comment? I wouldn't have batted a single eyelid. I'd have said a completely unperturbed "yeah..." cos I'd have known that the INTJ was just trying to point out some useful information, the acknowledgement and internalization of which would help solve my problem.

It wouldn't have bothered me either, but I can see how it could bother someone else. I would have phrased it differently just because of the huge possibility for misinterpretation.


It's more convenient to take a second to change your wording than to deal with a massive dramatic fallout.
 

Spartacuss

wholly charmed
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
677
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
I just was thinking, that when Feelers go to T country it is like me going to Germany and understanding that bluntness does not equal mean-ness. It is the tourist's job to adjust their perceptions as well as communications. However it does help to have a tour guide who can orient the person to their new surroundings and help them know how to go on. Maybe this is sometimes what is missing.


It gets tiring as all hell to ALWAYS ALWAYS be the one having to adjust communication style. A LOT of feelers seem to think that it must be the NTs fault since they, being Fs, are naturally in the right in approaching a human situation. I'm willing to work with people, but I'm not willing to accept their starting point that assumes that the NT is the one who needs to re-evaluate how s/he communicates.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
E-zackly! It's not a major adjustment to make and will save you and your audience so much unnecessary grief.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
Spartacus - I'm not saying you have to make the main communication adjustments if they are tourists in T country. I'm saying that rather than laughing at their errors, just tell them what's most likely to cause problems and how to step around them. If you are visiting F country, they should do the same for you. Much of my frustration in communicating with TJs is that I do not know how to go on.
 

ghoti

New member
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Messages
56
MBTI Type
intj
When Feelers go to T country it is like me going to Germany and needing to understand that bluntness does not equal mean-ness.

That actually reminds me of my college art professor from Germany. Everyone in the class hated him and thought he was mean because he wasn't constantly praising their half-assed work. I actually preferred his straight-forward criticism, because that's the style of teaching that helped me improve the most. I'm also pretty certain he was an INTJ.
 

proteanmix

Plumage and Moult
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
5,514
Enneagram
1w2
It gets tiring as all hell to ALWAYS ALWAYS be the one having to adjust communication style. A LOT of feelers seem to think that it must be the NTs fault since they, being Fs, are naturally in the right in approaching a human situation. I'm willing to work with people, but I'm not willing to accept their starting point that assumes that the NT is the one who needs to re-evaluate how s/he communicates.

What type of adjustment are we talking about here? What would a reasonable adjustment be if you're dealing with similarly reasonable people? What Ne-monster said her INTJ friend said to her is something I could handle coming from someone I know well and know their intentions, even though it would initially sting. Some random person/NT making the same remark would be met with a much different reaction and a few choice words. I'm definitely not of the school that Fs are naturals in terms of relationships, I think there are predispositions but those require cultivation. In my current situation I've marveled at how sensitive my INTP brother has been towards my mother's needs and how comforting my INTJ friend has been.

I know it's possible and can be done so the resistance is something that's puzzling to me. I can work with an honest effort, but outright dismissal gives me nothing. But the thing is do people recognize efforts in situations like this or are they already closed off? Take Ne-monster's example, I think a reasonable adjustment if you were still going to make the same comment is "Have you thought about going for your PhD again? Maybe there are less distractions in your life right now that would allow you to complete it successfully." Is that such a major adjustment to make?
 

Scott N Denver

New member
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Messages
2,898
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Lest anyone want to simply write this problem off solely to T-F differences, let me say
1) I've almost never had issues with ISTJ's
2) I've definitely heard NT's make comments with "strong words" about other NT's, likewise NT's and ST's.

More potentially objectionable behavior: INTJ's responding to situations with "I'm right, I know I'm right, I've thought a lot about this", INTJ's masterminding plans but then not actually putting forth work themselves to forward those plans, INTJ's criticizing others for not implementing the INTJ's plans fast enough even if the INTJ's plans weren't that realistic/doable/practical in the first place
 

substitute

New member
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
MBTI Type
ENTP
It wouldn't have bothered me either, but I can see how it could bother someone else. I would have phrased it differently just because of the huge possibility for misinterpretation.


It's more convenient to take a second to change your wording than to deal with a massive dramatic fallout.

In many situations, granted. But when dealing with friends and family who are supposed to know you, I don't think it's reasonable to have to keep changing the way you express yourself. The way I see it, when it's people who choose to be close to you, those are the people you should feel at ease with, to be able to be yourself and just speak freely and naturally without having to couch things or reword things to avoid offence. There should be a trust between such people, so that the very last thing either of you would expect would be that the other one meant any offence.

Proteanmix - for me that would be an enormous adjustment, I'd feel like I was just not even being myself but just reading a script someone else had written for me, and I'd be thinking whilst reading it, "who writes this stuff??"

It's difficult to adjust to such great differences whilst still remaining true to yourself. That's where the resistance comes from - the fear that what's being expected of me is that I change who I am and become someone else, in order to accommodate a point of view I don't actually agree with, much as I respect the person's right to hold it.
 

poppy

triple nerd score
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
2,215
MBTI Type
intj
Enneagram
5
More potentially objectionable behavior: INTJ's responding to situations with "I'm right, I know I'm right, I've thought a lot about this", INTJ's masterminding plans but then not actually putting forth work themselves to forward those plans, INTJ's criticizing others for not implementing the INTJ's plans fast enough even if the INTJ's plans weren't that realistic/doable/practical in the first place
:(
Just kidding. Yeah, I've probably done the first, but not so much the others. If I want something done I'll put the effort in. I don't know about other INTJs but I think generally the J tendencies would prevent us from sitting back and getting pissed off when we don't see results.
Just out of curiosity, under what kinds of circumstances have you seen INTJs letting other people carry out their plans? Are they in a supervising position at work, or is it in a more casual environment?
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
It's difficult to adjust to such great differences whilst still remaining true to yourself. That's where the resistance comes from - the fear that what's being expected of me is that I change who I am and become someone else, in order to accommodate a point of view I don't actually agree with, much as I respect the person's right to hold it.[/QUOTE]

No one wants you to change who you are. Here is an example. Profanity may effectively and forcefully or humorously get a message across in a colorful/memorable or curt way. Depending on your audience, it may be totally appropriate for you to use.

However, if used in the wrong venue, it will turn your audience off to what you are saying and also make you look foolish because you are not adjusting to the social situation. Some people prefer to express their message with profanity. Some without profanity.

Does it really change who you are or what you have to say? No, but you have to decide which language set is appropriate to which group of people. The ultimate goal is getting your point across in a way your listeners understand, and which will have a lasting effect on them.

This seems to be more an issue of resentment towards someone affecting how you speak or act. Is this about who decides that something is offensive or inappropriate and you being concerned that you are being told what to do?
 

proteanmix

Plumage and Moult
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
5,514
Enneagram
1w2
Proteanmix - for me that would be an enormous adjustment, I'd feel like I was just not even being myself but just reading a script someone else had written for me, and I'd be thinking whilst reading it, "who writes this stuff??"

Well this is interesting. Do other NTs feel like this as well? I guess this is a bigger problem then I thought. Using that statement as an example, I wouldn't think rephrasing it a big deal. My reasons for this is because it would not put the person on the defensive by making character attacks ("if you weren't so lazy") and it opens up a dialogue for things such as why couldn't the person succeed the first time around, what was going on at the time, and how those obstacles could be avoided in the future. I would view couching my inquiry in that way as both constructive and productive. And I do think that if the person had gotten upset with me for saying something like that I wouldn't consider them hypersensitive. That statement is harsh as far as I'm concerned. I'm exaggerating this a bit, but can I assume I can say equally as mean things to NTs about their sore spots and weaknesses it will be well-received and laughed off? I'm going to try this very soon but I can predict how my responses will be.

Also, can you tell me what would be constructive and productive about the more "natural" NT way? I will say that sometimes I think people need that strong jolt statements like that can arouse in order to get people moving. But that seems like such an iffy motivator if the purpose was motivation to begin with. What would the purpose of saying it like that be? Like I said, harsher statements between family and friends may be more tenable, but not between someone I know casually.

I remember when I came home during my sophomore year of college during winter break and before saying hello or anything my INTP brother said to me "Your ass is spreading like rumors," and I was on the verge of tears BUT it did help me to take a look at my weight gain. I think it's funny now and I'll tell it to anybody, but it was hard when he said it. Like I said, I find that to be just as likely to demotivate and put people on the defensive but if it works for NTs and people respond positively to this then continue as you have.
 

substitute

New member
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
MBTI Type
ENTP
No one wants you to change who you are.

Ha. YOU don't, and bless you for that. But there are a lot of people who do...

Here is an example. Profanity may effectively and forcefully or humorously get a message across in a colorful/memorable or curt way. Depending on your audience, it may be totally appropriate for you to use...

That's different. Profanity's more obvious. Simply avoiding the use of the F word is a whole world away from completely rephrasing everything I say into sentences laced with fake emotional subtexts that I neither feel nor agree with.

Does it really change who you are or what you have to say? No, but you have to decide which language set is appropriate to which group of people. The ultimate goal is getting your point across in a way your listeners understand, and which will have a lasting effect on them.

Nobody knows this more than me; I've spent my lifetime studying linguistics and socio-linguistics, and I know I take more care than most to say EXACTLY what I mean. And since what I mean carries no ill will, malice or offence, there's no reason why expressing it clearly and precisely should give the impression that it does. My point though, is that regardless of how careful you are, there are always those people who just read whatever they want into your words. In such cases, it's not fair that I should be the one held responsible for the misunderstanding, or that I should be required to adapt even further in order to accommodate their flaws.

I seldom see people making as much effort as I do to speak clearly, to actually LISTEN to my WORDS and give them no other value than that which the dictionary gives them. It's as if most people are just putting subtitles under what I say as fast as I'm saying it... I don't get what all the resistance is to simply taking a person at their word, rather than reading all kinds of imaginary subtexts into what they say!?

This seems to be more an issue of resentment towards someone affecting how you speak or act. Is this about who decides that something is offensive or inappropriate and you being concerned that you are being told what to do?

Partially. But also a large part of it is that I resent being held responsible for other people's perceptions and emotions. I deal with a LOT of people, ALL the time. I mean really, a lot. Each week I probably see and talk to over a hundred different people, some regulars, some occasionals, some new and of those I never know who I'll be seeing again. In general, I have no problems with communicating, and have won awards for my people skills.

Part of what makes me good with people (I've had it said in reviews and reports) is my ability to "shift gears" between formal and informal and shades in between, thereby creating a sense of openness and relaxation that most people respond very well to.

But yet, if only say, 10% of the people I meet decide to take umbridge at the way I express myself, that's still ten people in one week demonizing me - for what? Being too clear? Is it fair that I should shoulder the responsibility for the emotional responses of these people?

Cos 10% of a lot of people criticizing you and blackening you all the time... really hurts.
 

sculpting

New member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
4,148
What type of adjustment are we talking about here? What would a reasonable adjustment be if you're dealing with similarly reasonable people? What Ne-monster said her INTJ friend said to her is something I could handle coming from someone I know well and know their intentions, even though it would initially sting. Some random person/NT making the same remark would be met with a much different reaction and a few choice words. I'm definitely not of the school that Fs are naturals in terms of relationships, I think there are predispositions but those require cultivation. In my current situation I've marveled at how sensitive my INTP brother has been towards my mother's needs and how comforting my INTJ friend has been.

I know it's possible and can be done so the resistance is something that's puzzling to me. I can work with an honest effort, but outright dismissal gives me nothing. But the thing is do people recognize efforts in situations like this or are they already closed off? Take Ne-monster's example, I think a reasonable adjustment if you were still going to make the same comment is "Have you thought about going for your PhD again? Maybe there are less distractions in your life right now that would allow you to complete it successfully." Is that such a major adjustment to make?


Actually from her it would have been really odd as she just says those things, so I would have wondered if she was feeling okay.

However-since you rephrased it-that freaks me the hell out. If someone said that to me i would spend the next two weeks trying to figure out what they really meant, and what they really thought of me. I would question what distractions they were talking about and well, what did they think of those distractions, and I wonder if they were worthy distractions, and maybe they dont really think I could do it, but are just being nice. And was I not successful before, case I thought I did a good job, ??? and maybe they are implying that right now I am not good enough at the job I am doing, so want me to leave so they can replace me and are just trying to get me to go to grad school so I'll move on? Then I woukld feel massive guilt at being a failure and guilt that I was too lazy, and then try and figure out what the person really meant.

No shit. Ne goes nuts when I get Fe statements like that. They are so sweet, yet????
 
Top