[NT] NT! Why are you ASSHOLES?

[sculpting]

I seldom see people making as much effort as I do to speak clearly, to actually LISTEN to my WORDS and give them no other value than that which the dictionary gives them. It's as if most people are just putting subtitles under what I say as fast as I'm saying it... I don't get what all the resistance is to simply taking a person at their word, rather than reading all kinds of imaginary subtexts into what they say!?

Cos 10% of a lot of people criticizing you and blackening you all the time... really hurts.

hahaha, the irony of this statement.... yikes.

to you sub.

 

[mortabunt]

Remember my P part. Good enough is enough. Not intended to be cruel, or you'd be crying like a stereotypical INFP by now.

 

[proteanmix]

Actually from her it would have been really odd as she just says those things, so I would have wondered if she was feeling okay.

However-since you rephrased it-that freaks me the hell out. If someone said that to me i would spend the next two weeks trying to figure out what they really meant, and what they really thought of me. I would question what distractions they were talking about and well, what did they think of those distractions, and I wonder if they were worthy distractions, and maybe they dont really think I could do it, but are just being nice. And was I not successful before, case I thought I did a good job, ??? and maybe they are implying that right now I am not good enough at the job I am doing, so want me to leave so they can replace me and are just trying to get me to go to grad school so I'll move on? Then I woukld feel massive guilt at being a failure and guilt that I was too lazy, and then try and figure out what the person really meant.

No shit. Ne goes nuts when I get Fe statements like that. They are so sweet, yet????

This thread gets more and more interesting! I wouldn't think twice about someone saying what I said to me. Whoa, this is a little scary. I wouldn't think that deeply about it and I would keep the statement in the realm of exactly what was said is what was meant.

Since I know getting a PhD is hard work that would be my way of encouraging you. If all these misunderstandings arise out of basic statements I can see why people are so frustrated. Another benefit to most people being sensors due to less inclination to read into things.

 

[substitute]

My reasons for this is because it would not put the person on the defensive by making character attacks ("if you weren't so lazy") and it opens up a dialogue for things such as why couldn't the person succeed the first time around, what was going on at the time, and how those obstacles could be avoided in the future. I would view couching my inquiry in that way as both constructive and productive.

However, I might see the fact that they're lazy and unable to admit it, as the real problem behind what's going on. My view might be that, if they could have a bit more humility about their flaws and be able to speak about them openly, without sugar coating things and making people pretend they haven't noticed those flaws so that nobody mentions them directly, then maybe they'd be able to address those flaws in a more direct way, and maybe it'd remove the bullshit screen that stands between them and recognizing that when they tell themselves they're not doing any reading tonight for their course, this is just laziness talking and not all the valid justifications that they give themselves and their friends politely agree with.

I think that facing the naked truth about yourself is about the most constructive thing a person can do. Maybe I see not just the laziness but the pride that's at the root of them being hurt when someone points it out, as big problems that stand in the way of their achieving what they want to.

I wouldn't bother speaking to most people this way, because I know they're not capable of responding to it constructively. So that's why, with most people, I've learned to either keep my opinions to myself and not answer anything (and shrug it off when they get mad at me for that and read their own things into it), or if I'm asked for one, I'll give it my way. If they wanted a touchy feely opinion, they shouldn't have come to me.

I can't talk for all NT's but for me, yes, I do have very frank and open discussions about my bad points on a regular basis. Whilst when I was younger I didn't take things as well as I ought to have, it's been a long time since I've got upset over someone pointing out a bad point I have... mostly cos I'm so used to talking about them directly and openly, that there aren't many that you could surprise me with to even be upset over. And I have a sense of humour about myself.

I had a friend at school who was very sensitive about this kinda thing, you always had to couch things and sugar coat them for her. She was uptight and really square, and very unadventurous and had no backbone. She needed a job, and I had one at a video store, so she asked if I'd talk to the manager to get her a job. I said I wasn't sure she would like working there (she's an ISFJ), cos the atmosphere's quite boisterous amongst the mostly male staff, and the women there were pretty plain speaking too. But she said she needed the money and was tougher than I thought, so I got her the job.

She spent the first few months feeling ruthlessly mocked and ribbed all day long, thinking everyone hated her and was trying to get at her - she didn't notice that they spoke like that to each other too, and yet were all great pals, she was too busy feeling like the victim. She stuck at the job partly though needing the money and partly through not having the balls for the confrontation that "might" happen if she said she wanted to quit. I moved town and we lost touch for a while.

Next time I saw her, she'd completely loosened up. She was way happier and more relaxed, and had learned to laugh at herself good naturedly and allow others to do so too without taking it as an attack. She said on Facebook the other day that the most valuable experience in her life was working at that video store, because it taught her to stop pinning the responsibility for her subjective feelings onto everyone else. She worked at that store for over three years, eventually adapting and finding her feet and her confidence in herself, realizing that the others were just kidding around or offering what they considered useful information, and ending up area manager for a while. She's still in touch with those same people who she was so sure were nasty, mean and hurtful to start with, two of them were her bridesmaids and one is her child's godfather.

 

[Orangey]

Is it fair that I should shoulder the responsibility for the emotional responses of these people?

No. I never take responsibility for these types of things, and if I'm pressured to, I will resort to calling someone a "sensitive crybaby."

In most cases, if I'm called on something, I can immediately see how my phrasing might have been interpreted differently than the way I intended, and I apologize and explain what I really meant. There are those times, though, when people are just unreasonably sensitive, and no amount of explaining will convince them otherwise. It shouldn't be assumed that in every case, the person offended is in the right and should therefore be sympathized with. Unfortunately, this seems more often than not to be the default attitude of those around you.

 

[sculpting]

I am kind of Fe blind. The one enfj I worked with I drove crazy, to the point where everytime she talked to me she would twitch a little. (I am an enfp mostly)

She would say things that would offend me due to the unspoken implications which I felt were there. It's totally me being neurotic in some level, bt I think there is some meat to this as well.

here's an example:

"well, irresponsbile single moms are the reason I couldn't get grants dring college"-right after I told her that I got lots of grants for being a single mom

Another Fe example:

I was at the playground with my toddler. Another mom sits down next to me a few feet away. Very Fe dom, but not sure Ne or Se. She is saying really sweet Fe type stuff to her little girl, then starts talking about how good a job the little girl did cleaning her teeth. I was like WTF?

Then I realized my son was right beside her daughter. He has brown stains from two baby cavities in his front teeth. They are sealed and are fine but looks a little odd.

But why SAY something like that? It was almost like she could not help but make a statement that passed judgement without really being straightforward about it.

Now THAT hurt my feelings far more than any NT remark. wierd stuff huh?

PS (I do love ENFJ work from a distance though. You guys do awesome stuff.)

(and just in my defense, my project sucked, I was depressed and my brain had retreated to a state of near mental retardation due to long term hypothyroidism. I also am a big ass P and didnt have enough long term stamina to keep banging my head against a wall on meaningless work-all which validly translates into "work harder" for an INTJ )

 

[substitute]

Actually from her it would have been really odd as she just says those things, so I would have wondered if she was feeling okay.

However-since you rephrased it-that freaks me the hell out. If someone said that to me i would spend the next two weeks trying to figure out what they really meant, and what they really thought of me. I would question what distractions they were talking about and well, what did they think of those distractions, and I wonder if they were worthy distractions, and maybe they dont really think I could do it, but are just being nice. And was I not successful before, case I thought I did a good job, ??? and maybe they are implying that right now I am not good enough at the job I am doing, so want me to leave so they can replace me and are just trying to get me to go to grad school so I'll move on? Then I woukld feel massive guilt at being a failure and guilt that I was too lazy, and then try and figure out what the person really meant.

No shit. Ne goes nuts when I get Fe statements like that. They are so sweet, yet????

Amen to that! That's what Fe does to me too, sends me on spirals of "wtf was THAT supposed to mean??" And you start to think that everything the person says to you is just a mask of what they really meant, and since they're not giving you any direct or clear feedback of what they really think of you, you go on spirals of "I think they hate me", and just this vibe of disapproval masked with smiles and sugar... lol gives me the creeps and demoralizes me like nothing else!!!

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

I have Fe, and I'm not passive-aggressive. I actually hate passive-aggressive people.

 

[Synarch]

"well, irresponsbile single moms are the reason I couldn't get grants dring college"-right after I told her that I got lots of grants for being a single mom

ENFJ's can be so pushy and free with their loaded views on how things are. They're like everyone's tempestuous Mom.

 

[sculpting]

I have Fe, and I'm not passive-aggressive. I actually hate passive-aggressive people.

i think every function has a diff flavor depending upon dom, aux or tert. So tert Fe has a very different feel from dom Fe. Tert Fe has been really fascinating to me lately as I get watch a bunch of estps and entps in my company.

It is fascinating to see how different folks grow it in and use it. The diversity is really neat. I'd imagine all the functions in tert may be like this if you look for it.

 

[Ulaes]

fluffiness is a waste of time and energy.

 

[proteanmix]

However, I might see the fact that they're lazy and unable to admit it, as the real problem behind what's going on. My view might be that, if they could have a bit more humility about their flaws and be able to speak about them openly, without sugar coating things and making people pretend they haven't noticed those flaws so that nobody mentions them directly, then maybe they'd be able to address those flaws in a more direct way, and maybe it'd remove the bullshit screen that stands between them and recognizing that when they tell themselves they're not doing any reading tonight for their course, this is just laziness talking and not all the valid justifications that they give themselves and their friends politely agree with.

Can you tell me how that hypothetical statement was sugar-coated or a "bullshit screen"? It would not have been intended as such and I would find someone who interpreted it like that to be a bit off. I view it as an (not the only) approach to addressing some of the things you brought up. It sounds pretty innocuous and well meaning to me, and I want to understand how it could be commonly interpreted otherwise. I would really rankle if someone said I didn't get my PhD (a feat in itself!) because I was lazy. What if they had personal issues happening that were distractions? What if they just didn't want it anymore? There are a lot of what ifs involved. The assumption (and the problem I think) is attributing not attaining the degree to laziness. It may or may not be the reason, but unless I knew otherwise I'd be hesitant to just say this is why you didn't do this with any certainty which is why I would start the discussion with an open-ended question instead of a statement of fact.

My ultimate goal would be to find out why and help the person attain their goal not to politely enable them. Once again, I think that how you approach the situation should depend on what you know about the person and how they respond. I really don't know what to say if people perceive that approach as insincere but I would say it's more problematic for those who automatically interpret similar statements as insincere than the ones making them. I'd say if this seems to be the person's typical way of interacting with people then I'd assume it was sincere and honest and deal with it with that in mind.

The thing about bringing up people's "flaws" to them is they may not be ready to confront them or even see them. I think I mentioned self-blindness earlier in the thread. I know all about trying to get people to see their flaws (what I perceive to be their flaws...if they are or aren't is debatable) and more often than not it's met with resistance and denial. So then we're moving into the territory of how you tell someone something unsavory about themselves without getting yourself beheaded. Do most people respond with you pointing out what they do wrong with grace, humility, and calm acceptance? If I'm going to do this (most people its not even worth it because I'm not invested enough in them to bother) I try to figure out their reactions first and work from those.

I think that facing the naked truth about yourself is about the most constructive thing a person can do. Maybe I see not just the laziness but the pride that's at the root of them being hurt when someone points it out, as big problems that stand in the way of their achieving what they want to.

I agree with this. I'm also thinking that seeing the naked truth about oneself is a very personal thing that the individual must be ready to accept and their is a certain amount of dealing with it on their own that is inherent to the process. Outside (well-meaning) attempts can be like salt in the wound. That's when I think it matters how something gets said matters so much when dealing with these matters.

I wouldn't bother speaking to most people this way, because I know they're not capable of responding to it constructively. So that's why, with most people, I've learned to either keep my opinions to myself and not answer anything (and shrug it off when they get mad at me for that and read their own things into it), or if I'm asked for one, I'll give it my way. If they wanted a touchy feely opinion, they shouldn't have come to me.

There seems to be a lot of things read into the Fe-ish comments that weren't there so this really cuts both ways I suppose.

I can't talk for all NT's but for me, yes, I do have very frank and open discussions about my bad points on a regular basis.

With whom? How they say things doesn't matter at all? If they're privy to personal and intimate knowledge about you I would view them as being in the greatest position to do the most harm and most good so I would be more sensitive to how they say things. Random Joe and Jane Blow on the street I wouldn't give two shits about but someone I care about cutting into me would be a. It all depends on the spirit and context in which it's done so in a frank and honest discussion I still expect respect and no low blows.

 

[A Schnitzel]

fluffiness is a waste of time and energy.

That's the last time I'm giving you extra foam in your latte.

 

[Spartacuss]

What type of adjustment are we talking about here? What would a reasonable adjustment be if you're dealing with similarly reasonable people? What Ne-monster said her INTJ friend said to her is something I could handle coming from someone I know well and know their intentions, even though it would initially sting.

I question whether I'm dealing with reasonable people sometimes. A common scenario is that I disagree about how to solve a problem, and because I seem to be approaching it from a technical rather than a sympathetic angle, the determination is made that I am an unsympathetic person. From there, everything I say is adjudged through the lens that I'm evil incarnate and trying to make them aware of how cool I think this is when this is far from the truth.
E.g. one bleeding heart acquaintance was talking about a problem common to a certain part of the world, and very upset about it. I appreciated that she wanted to help, but thought her method wouldn't help and would probably hurt. I make an alternative suggestion. She promptly informs me I need to consider these poor people. how are hysterics any better? I eventually get somewhere by pointing out we both want to help but disagree on how to go about it. From then, everything I say is judged thru the lens that I'm a less caring person than she is.

The knack for reaching quick unfounded decisions about how much I do or don't care about something based on how the words and demeanor match up to their standards of appropriate feeliness means that to avoid this I do not engage in certain discussions with some people unless I know they'll take the effort to really go on a long nonjudgmental walk thru the woods on the issue. With people who know better (friends, e,g, quite a few of them feelers!), it's not as exhausting because there's less of a need to jump thru what strikes me as irrational hoops.

 

[proteanmix]

Spart I get that and thank you for explaining what you meant.

It's kinda funny to me that thatgirl started the in such an incendiary manner and then got all these emotional reactions and then people are saying they'd rather get this exact type of thing then something more neutral. Not sugar-coated and wrapped in cotton candy, but neutral. To me, it's very similar to Ne-monster's friend's comment. I'm interpreting mixed messages. The general reactions reinforces my belief people don't like negative character judgments made against them brought to their attention in any ol way, but if it's true it's OK doesn't matter how it's said? The defensive reactions to the thread says otherwise.

Perhaps because it's not true or because individuals don't want to be lumped into a category and associated with negative characteristics they don't have. IOW, their (possible) flaws are being brought up to them in a manner that is putting them on the defensive and going in circles. The thread is the embodiment of how I'm saying most people don't like to be engaged.

 

[Spartacuss]

Oh I don't have a problem with the in your faceness of the OP's thread. I just disagree with the conclusion she started (!) with and wonder why the things she complains of bothers her. I prefer this call-out to the passive aggressive sniping I've seen elsewhere. But it means we can respond in like direct fashion.

 

[proteanmix]

Oh I don't have a problem with the in your faceness of the OP's thread. I just disagree with the conclusion she started (!) with and wonder why the things she complains of bothers her. I prefer this call-out to the passive aggressive sniping I've seen elsewhere. But it means we can respond in like direct fashion.

So a more neutral, direct, but open-ended OP?

 

[Spartacuss]

That works!

 

[Spartacuss]

Originally Posted by substitute
Proteanmix - for me that would be an enormous adjustment, I'd feel like I was just not even being myself but just reading a script someone else had written for me, and I'd be thinking whilst reading it, "who writes this stuff??"

Well this is interesting. Do other NTs feel like this as well?

OMG. I missed this. The answer is a definitive YES.
Not that specific example, but you get the drift.

here's the funny thing: when i have tried that, people see right thru the attempt at putting it more "nicely." Result: a diagnosis of condescension and insincerity.
to add to the pure evil of course.

 

[INTJ123]

Seriously,

Don't give me this I am so out of touch with my emotions crap. You are all smart people. You understand MBTI. So why, with all your knowledge are you so goddamn proud at your dysfunction and assholery? You would think, if you were a real NT, that you would be ashamed at what you have not perfected.

You know you are right, but you are over generalizing that all NTs are like this. It's not uncommon for an NT to be wearing an NF mask in their later years. The ones you speak of are probably just young and immature.