• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[NT] Don't demonize me!

substitute

New member
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
MBTI Type
ENTP
NT's, do you ever feel like your entire personality is being demonized because you simply can't attach to someone or something, however much they want you to or however much they think you should?

Do you ever feel like your best qualities get twisted and painted into something to condemn you, by people who just don't get the way you work at all?

If so, how do you deal with it? If not, how do you achieve that?
 

substitute

New member
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
MBTI Type
ENTP
Nobody?

Shoot, it's just me then :mellow:

*goes away to re-evaluate life*
 

ghoti

New member
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Messages
56
MBTI Type
intj
You're not alone. My mother has always been the one to demonize my personality the most. She's called me selfish and hateful for wanting to be alone sometimes and rarely having close friends, disrespectful and rude for not responding to her unreasonable yelling fits, and cruel and unsympathetic because I do not always openly show my emotions. When I was younger she would push me to join after school activities, and would get angry at my resistance and avoidance of "making friends."

My sister has claimed that I am apathetic because I'm not easy to get riled up, and that I'm ignorant because I believe science over spirituality.

The comments always hurt when I was younger, especially my mother's, but now I just ignore them because I know she has very little understanding of me and her comments are more a reflection of her own projected insecurities and past grievances. AKA I just block it out than actually deal with it.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,193
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I feel like my family generally dismisses me because I don't share their specific religious beliefs anymore -- I was entirely trustworthy if I shared their particular doctrines, and when I shifted to something still in the same ballpark but a bit different, I got dropped into the "Other" box.

I don't know how to get around that one. Basically we just agree to not talk about it, but I think it has put a damper on the relationship. (Basically I have a "social" relationship with them, but not an intimate one that I normally reserve for close friends and -- supposedly -- family.)

How long have they persisted in choosing to view you the wrong way?

One thing I have learned is that there are people who delight in me and they give me the benefit of a doubt when I do something they do not understand... and they try to understand even when they don't easily get it. There are others who are always suspicious and see any deviation from their point of view as something to be eradicated or that my behavior is aimed towards undermining them in some way; those people, I have cutting way back my investment hours with. THey don't WANT to understand.
 

substitute

New member
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
MBTI Type
ENTP
yeah that's it isn't it Jennifer? the benefit of the doubt. The way I see it, if I've got to know a person enough to figure they're basically decent, you know, I figure then the least I owe them is a basic level of trust in them as a good person. Once I give that, I can't go questioning every single thing they do that seems strange to me or whatever, and instantly putting them in the dock for it, assuming it's malicious until they satisfy me verbally that it isn't.

I get called things, and motivations and feelings ascribed to me by my family all the time that just make me think, well if they knew me at all, they would know that what they're accusing me of is completely out of the sphere of what I'm even capable of even in thought, let alone deed. So instead of what they're doing, they'd have jumped to the conclusion first, that it's probably a misunderstanding, and given me a chance and tried to understand. But it seems so often that all they're looking for when I explain things, is something to confirm and justify their suspicions, believing the worst of me.

It's so exhausting, each and every time it's like they just don't learn. Never mind that they can't think of a single time when I've lied maliciously or cheateed or stolen or betrayed any of them, or that my track record for keeping my word and not letting people down is flawless. Or the long hours we've spent where I've told them in detail my beliefs and principles and how my entire life centres around integrity and clarity. Oh no, if I chose the "wrong" words for their liking, my entire character is now instantly demonized and all my prior credit is temporarily erased.

ghoti - yes, it's just like that, those same things. The worst part for me is where they accuse me of caring more about my friends than them cos I spend more time with them. Well, is it any wonder? I never get this BS with them!

If it weren't for the fact that they're the only people who see me this way, I'd probably still be hating myself like I did years ago before I had a social life. A social life that's proven again and again that actually, my people skills are pretty damn good, they're just absurdly prickly!
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
NT's, do you ever feel like your entire personality is being demonized because you simply can't attach to someone or something, however much they want you to or however much they think you should?
do you mean to ask whether people try to demonize me? maybe you wonder that i feel demonized when i'm not agreed with?
whether i feel it or not seems irrelevant.

anyway, no i don't. i think people are intimidated to stand up to an anti-hero. they're worried about a clean, middle class white boy with all this nonsense about defaming firemen and police officers, the blue collar, the white collar, the dog collar -- any collar at all. a sometimes quiet, sometimes fire-breathed 20 year old, one who treasures natural disasters and the losing numbers in the lotter. the boy with a neat hair cut and the cynical outlook.

they don't know what i'll do to them if they disagree.
that's why people take it out on me here.
it's 'cause they know i can't reach.

Do you ever feel like your best qualities get twisted and painted into something to condemn you, by people who just don't get the way you work at all?
nah, i never got the whole teenage 'no one understands me' thing.

If so, how do you deal with it? If not, how do you achieve that?
i continue my rampage because no one stops me.
 

substitute

New member
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
MBTI Type
ENTP
they don't know what i'll do to them if they disagree.
that's why people take it out on me here.
it's 'cause they know i can't reach.

Yeah, I get that. Even though in actual fact, what I'll do is pretty predictable if they'd just believe me when I tell them the principles that underlie my decisions!

nah, i never got the whole teenage 'no one understands me' thing

Oh no I'm not talking about the teenage version, I don't think NOBODY understands me, I know quite a few people understand me perfectly well. It's just frustrating and sometimes hurtful when the people I'm supposed to care most about - my family - don't.

Maybe it's just that whole "prophet never heeded in his hometown" thing. Not that I'm saying I'm a prophet or anything, but you know, familiarity breeds contempt sometimes, and that kills the motivation for benevolence or openness sometimes.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
Yeah, I get that. Even though in actual fact, what I'll do is pretty predictable if they'd just believe me when I tell them the principles that underlie my decisions!
well the thing is that i won't do anything.
they can disagree all they want.
makes no difference to me.

Oh no I'm not talking about the teenage version
i know but it's funnier to mock that way.
 

ghoti

New member
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Messages
56
MBTI Type
intj
I get called things, and motivations and feelings ascribed to me by my family all the time that just make me think, well if they knew me at all, they would know that what they're accusing me of is completely out of the sphere of what I'm even capable of even in thought, let alone deed. So instead of what they're doing, they'd have jumped to the conclusion first, that it's probably a misunderstanding, and given me a chance and tried to understand. But it seems so often that all they're looking for when I explain things, is something to confirm and justify their suspicions, believing the worst of me.

I can't agree enough how frustrating this is, especially since I struggle so much in order to express myself. Even when I try to clearly explain my feelings and motivations, it's either they don't trust me or they only hear what they already believe. After putting so much effort into it, explaining myself no longer seems worthwhile when it only ends in more misunderstandings.

But I can't stand people telling me what I think and feel. My mother will infer a detail that was never there, and create an explanation to satisfy her that's half a world away from the truth, yet she's convinced that it's real. And it always implies the worst of me. Never has she given me the benefit of the doubt or trusted my word at face value.

Unfortunately I was isolated on all fronts for most my life, so I rarely had friends to fall back on when my family was giving me a difficult time. Which was my fault I suppose.

I hate admitting I went through the nobody understands me phase, as cliched as it is, but when people consistently misinterpreted everything I said and I couldn't find another way to communicate since I was being as straight forward as I possibly could be, it certainly felt like I couldn't understand anybody else either. I'll be the first to admit I'm extremely emotionally stunted, so I blame myself too.
 

substitute

New member
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
MBTI Type
ENTP
yeah it's just that mean spiritedness that I can't fathom, I couldn't be that way if I tried. even my worst enemy (not that I think I even have one), I still sincerely and fundamentally believe that whatever they've done that was bad was through misguided good intentions most of the time. It's just so profoundly insulting isn't it, and can make a person very insecure about their relationship with someone who is so quick to interpret the smallest detail of their words or whatever, as evidence that their entire character is malevolent.

I feel it's so ironic that as much as it's apparently my character that's being called into question, the very fact that they're doing it on such flimsy evidence tells me volumes about their character lacking somewhat in charity, benevolence, compassion and those general fruits of the spirit type things.

Nocap... not listening or changing no matter what anyone says, I dunno if I'd agree with that, but you wouldn't care anyway :laugh:

I see it all the time on these forums though, F's saying they wish they could be like NT's and "just not care". Right. Cos I don't show I care by crying and hugging, it means I live in a self-centred world of not giving a shit how anyone else feels?
 

Fluffywolf

Nips away your dignity
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Messages
9,581
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
As an INTP, I'm a mystery to my family.

I choose the people I open up too. And my family members aren't them. Still, I don't hate them or have negative feelings towards them. The "Because I'm family" factor holds little weight to me.
 

Mondo

Welcome to Sunnyside
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
1,992
MBTI Type
EsTP
Enneagram
6w7
People often don't understand my need to argue and debate every single issue except other NT's- and even there it's only the Extraverted Rationals who like the quick, fun-spirited debate while the Introverted ones often make it too serious...
I do it for fun and it's the way I learn best.
 

plaguerat

New member
Joined
Mar 15, 2009
Messages
195
MBTI Type
INTJ
People often don't understand my need to argue and debate every single issue except other NT's- and even there it's only the Extraverted Rationals who like the quick, fun-spirited debate while the Introverted ones often make it too serious...
I do it for fun and it's the way I learn best.


I catch myself arguing just for the sake of arguing and quite honestly it amuses me even more. It bothers everyone else, haha.


Now, on to the point of the thread:
Do I see it as "demonized"? sure. Do I care? no. They don't like me and that's fine, I probably don't like them. If they don't want to listen to what I have to say when I know I'm right then it'll be their fault eventually when their world or project starts to crumble and I'm not willing to repeat myself or save their asses. I've got my few friends and I like them very much. I've got my hobbies and books and whatnot and to hell with anyone who would like to try and tell me how wrong, selfish, idiotic, and narssicistic I am.
 

Mondo

Welcome to Sunnyside
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
1,992
MBTI Type
EsTP
Enneagram
6w7
I catch myself arguing just for the sake of arguing and quite honestly it amuses me even more. It bothers everyone else, haha.


Now, on to the point of the thread:
Do I see it as "demonized"? sure. Do I care? no. They don't like me and that's fine, I probably don't like them. If they don't want to listen to what I have to say when I know I'm right then it'll be their fault eventually when their world or project starts to crumble and I'm not willing to repeat myself or save their asses. I've got my few friends and I like them very much. I've got my hobbies and books and whatnot and to hell with anyone who would like to try and tell me how wrong, selfish, idiotic, and narssicistic I am.

That's a good attitude to take. :D One of my closest friends, an INTJ, has a similar philosophy when dealing with others. He will often be argumentative and critical of others.
If a person shows any sign of emotional weakness, he'll be an asshole to that person and try to figure out the best ways to provoke that person..
That's fine with me. If anything, I simply appreciate his honesty.
I don't take offense when he teases me and vice versa.
We both often say ridiculously nasty things to one another- and our non-Rational friends can barely understand it..
 

plaguerat

New member
Joined
Mar 15, 2009
Messages
195
MBTI Type
INTJ
That's a good attitude to take. :D One of my closest friends, an INTJ, has a similar philosophy when dealing with others. He will often be argumentative and critical of others.
If a person shows any sign of emotional weakness, he'll be an asshole to that person and try to figure out the best ways to provoke that person..
That's fine with me. If anything, I simply appreciate his honesty.
I don't take offense when he teases me and vice versa.
We both often say ridiculously nasty things to one another- and our non-Rational friends can barely understand it..

Yeah, I only know one other NT irl, and we're either assholes or disturbingly chummy together. My best friend (an INFP) and I are such huge jerks to each other most people are afraid we'll just start physically beating each other. It really is amusing.
 

LucrativeSid

New member
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
837
NT's, do you ever feel like your entire personality is being demonized because you simply can't attach to someone or something, however much they want you to or however much they think you should?

Do you ever feel like your best qualities get twisted and painted into something to condemn you, by people who just don't get the way you work at all?

If so, how do you deal with it? If not, how do you achieve that?

I've never felt demonized or rejected because of the way I am. I can't even imagine thinking that way. That would be terrible. I've always thought differences of all kinds are celebrated within myself and within other people. I know your attitude can have an effect on how people react to you, and it also has an effect on how you judge those reactions, but I wonder how much of it is that and how much of it is the people we've just happened to be around.

I will say that I am lucky in that second department. I have a small and accepting family. My dad is very much like me, and we're great friends. My mom isn't like me at all, but she's always been extremely accepting and loving anyway, so we get along great. If I go a couple of months without calling her simply because I don't think about it, she's more likely to hurt and take the pain like a champion than to complain about it or think badly of me. I have only one sibling, a brother, and he obviously doesn't concern himself with pointless things like my personality or behavior. He's always had problems himself and has never once criticized the person that I am. I think they all celebrate my strengths and positive attributes. That's all they care about.

Beyond that, I have two step parents who never tried to boss me around, but were always willing to help me out as if they were my real parents. I don't relate to my step-mom that much, but we get along great. My step-dad is pretty cool and has a lot of the same interests as me. I'm always welcome to his music, movie, and book collections. Neither of my step-parents actually raised me so they really don't have any expectations of me or reasons to judge me. My mom's family is great. I don't see my dad's family that much, but everybody across the board is congenial towards me.

I don't see my dad's parents that much. I don't honestly know what my grandma thinks about this - but I tend to assume she just thinks that's who I am. I doubt she thinks "Oh, that asshole grandson of mine, too good to see his family!"

What's an example of someone demonizing you?

If they actually say that stuff out loud to you, then those people are probably just really judgmental. Sorry you've been stuck with them. I seriously doubt you are just more condemnable than me. I don't do anything to make people like me. I'm just not mean.
 

substitute

New member
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
MBTI Type
ENTP
Sid, all I can say is you're one lucky guy! If I didn't think envy was pointless then I'd envy your luck, but at least it's a testament to the difference a loving and accepting family can make. My family are all very strong F's and the only other strong N besides me is an ENFJ, so still not much understanding there and the obligatory guilt trips.

Outside of my family I'm a very positive person. I don't complain about being demonized because I don't really get it anywhere else. For many years I stayed out of touch with my family and my self esteem and confidence, and my social life, all took off like nothing else.

A year of frequent renewed contact with them through Facebook however, and their constant undermining of my character in little portions each day has taken its toll, it seems...

edit - oh yeah, they say it out loud. ALL the time. And cos it's all of them against me, naturally, that means they're in the right. Nothing to do with them just all thinking alike...
 

Verfremdungseffekt

videodrones; questions
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
866
MBTI Type
INTp
Enneagram
5w4
But it seems so often that all they're looking for when I explain things, is something to confirm and justify their suspicions, believing the worst of me.
Yeah, I think we talked about this a bit in another thread. Oy. This was an NF thing, right? I can't remember if you had a couple of INFJs going on, or if there was an ENFP in there.

I've had these problems all my life. I grew up in a house with a manipulative ENFP and a frantic INFP, both horribly undeveloped. All screaming, all day long. The only way to survive was to know whose side to pick, when. Then I kept getting involved with problem NFs, most recently a self-entitled INFJ who could never be questioned, and who kept reading in her own motivations into everything I did.

It's tough. One gets into this placatory mindset. All one's energy is spent trying to avoid setting people off, so one has no room for one's self.
 

substitute

New member
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
MBTI Type
ENTP
It's tough. One gets into this placatory mindset. All one's energy is spent trying to avoid setting people off, so one has no room for one's self.

Totally. I've got this line-up: ESFP, ESFJ (x2), ENFP, ISFJ, ENFJ, that's my immediate family, and the ENFP has quite a low N preference. There's my ISTP step-dad, but he's had 20 years of henpecking so he knows better than to try anything but to focus on the TV and speak when spoken to, quite sad really... years ago when he first came on the scene he was full of energy and character, now it's like he's just the gofer :(

There's also the homeschooling group I have to work with so my kids still get to play with other kids. A lot of the people there are very prickly and anal about their "values", yet they all conflict and stuff, so it's like being on egg shells there, in trying to keep everyone happy I end up not really bonding with anyone cos I can't be the real me. Whatever that is any more!
 

Alwar

The Architect
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Messages
922
MBTI Type
INTP
who could never be questioned, and who kept reading in her own motivations into everything I did.

So infuriating and common among people who have a weak sense of empathy. They cannot empathize so by definition cannot see your point of view or that of anyone else. So they believe that everyone has the same motivations and intentions that they do. Very frustrating, I avoid them as much as I can.
 
Top