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[NT] BEST Critic: INTJ or INTP?

nocebo

New member
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Messages
89
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
7
Why don't you pick based on credidentials and experience, instead?
We've already clarified that both have a fairly equal amount of positives and negatives.

Now it's more about how they've improved their strengths and minimized their weaknesses. Adding a single pro to either side isn't going to have as much impact as strengthening upon what they already have.
 

Afkan

New member
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
324
Why don't you pick based on credidentials and experience, instead?
We've already clarified that both have a fairly equal amount of positives and negatives.

Now it's more about how they've improved their strengths and minimized their weaknesses. Adding a single pro to either side isn't going to have as much impact as strengthening upon what they already have.

I agree with you whole-heartedly. Intuitive types are just so rare in the first place. I wish to hire a writer from a specific group of writers, but its a large group and I cannot possibly find out enough from all of them. I'd prefer to have them take a personality test to narrow the field and then compare their writing. And of course, as a J I prefer to have a definite answer in my mind about who "should" be better, and then look at their writing and compare. This process tells me a LOT about how healthy or just more about the individuals- imperative when hiring someone you may never see face to face. I'm sure you can understand how someone like me (an ENFJ) might feel uncomfortable working with, managing, and depending on people when communication is so limited. No facial expressions, no voice intonation... Ahhh!!!

Experience and credentials are nice. Writing samples are even better.
 

Economica

Dhampyr
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
2,054
MBTI Type
INTJ
What type [in a vacuum] makes the most logical, unbiased, painfully true critique? I am looking for a type that is most naturally capable (and does so actively on the most regular basis) of making a summation not crafted to drive the nail in deeper, sway to their personal point of view, or even flatter/attempt to avoid offending.

As an INTJ I have to go with/to the INTP for all of the above. Ni generally offers one perspective (at least at a time :D) that may be either an insightful hit or an oblivious miss but that always seeks to drive the nail in deeper and sway to our personal point of view, and the auxiliary Te/tertiary Fi combo generally introduces more strategic and biased communication than the inferior Fe of INTPs can consciously muster even on a good day.

The one caveat here is that you can't really persuade an INTP to focus their analytical prowess on your proposed object of analysis if it doesn't happen to interest them on its merits. (Thankfully, the INTPs on this site happen to take an interest in interpersonal dynamics, meaning you can get quality people analysis like this from them! :yay:) It is generally easier to get an INTJ to take an interest in and offer an opinion on anything, however unqualified we may be. (And if we're not initially willing, you can usually change our minds with enough flattery. :blush:) If the INTP is "the critic", the INTJ is "the know-it-all", but a critical know-it-all yields more input than a silent critic!

Edit: I just saw this:

Ahh!!! This throws a wrench in. Observation and precision sound pretty flippin important when it comes to...ummm...a writer of encyclopedia articles, of which I am looking for.

For the love of... Go with the INTP! It's the INTPs who read encyclopedias for fun as kids, and it's an INTP who would naturally focus on doing entries intellectual justice.

... Unless the INTP has little interest in the area and/or low conscientiousness. In that case maybe go with the INTJ, at least if the INTJ is of the pedantic rather than the visionary bent.

... No, really, go with the INTP!
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
19,769
To be honest I think this is something very individual if you are comparing just INTs


Not to mention that objectivity for the most part has a very subjective definition(s).
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
I agree with you whole-heartedly. Intuitive types are just so rare in the first place. I wish to hire a writer from a specific group of writers, but its a large group and I cannot possibly find out enough from all of them. I'd prefer to have them take a personality test to narrow the field and then compare their writing. And of course, as a J I prefer to have a definite answer in my mind about who "should" be better, and then look at their writing and compare. This process tells me a LOT about how healthy or just more about the individuals- imperative when hiring someone you may never see face to face. I'm sure you can understand how someone like me (an ENFJ) might feel uncomfortable working with, managing, and depending on people when communication is so limited. No facial expressions, no voice intonation... Ahhh!!!

Experience and credentials are nice. Writing samples are even better.

You, ma'am, are and remain ENTP. Email all candidates daring them to drink a quart of vodka and write about their childhoods.
 

Blank

.
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
1,201
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
For the on-topic part of this discussion, I would assume that an INTP may be a better encyclopedia writer if they're at least somewhat decently balanced. I agree a lot with what Economica said. If you want a writer to make it appeal to readers (who are likely to be NT's,) go with an enthusiastic INTP. If you want a good proofreader or something, give it to an I*TJ.


Off-topic: As an INTP, I'm really good at critiquing things that are related to my field of interest (story telling.) Theater, TV, books, all of that kind of stuff. When it comes to other things, I'm not that good at critiquing because it's not my "forte."
 

nozflubber

DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
2,078
MBTI Type
Hype
I kind of want to say INTPs too, but my model intellectual of encyclopedia-level knowledge is Aristotle, who I presume to be INTJ. So while economica says it depends on the INTP, I say it depends on whether the INTJ has actually been able to see the value for knowledge by itself, and not because he/she wishes to accomplish an aim which is their usual motivation for their entire life.

The real problem with INTJs, especially in the modern world, is that they have so many ways to dismiss entire swaths of knowledge, information, and perspectives. "Its not important...." is their mantra. Edgar is a prime example - the guy's witty and brilliant, but also very brilliant at presenting to you why something is worthless. Problematic.
 

Economica

Dhampyr
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
2,054
MBTI Type
INTJ
I kind of want to say INTPs too, but my model intellectual of encyclopedia-level knowledge is Aristotle, who I presume to be INTJ. So while economica says it depends on the INTP, I say it depends on whether the INTJ has actually been able to see the value for knowledge by itself, and not because he/she wishes to accomplish an aim which is their usual motivation for their entire life.

This is a worthwhile addition. (;))

... I guess I'm still working on being fair to my own kind.
 

Colors

The Destroyer
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
1,276
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
Fuck this, guys. What are we critiquing? Two representatives volunteer, someone pick a movie, and it's on like Donkey Kong.

May the better critic prevail.
 

Afkan

New member
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
324
You, ma'am, are and remain ENTP. Email all candidates daring them to drink a quart of vodka and write about their childhoods.

LOL looking at my whole entire life, I am not an ENTP, but I did score as an ENTP previously. Its odd, though, because I ALWAYS look toward the future and tease the many, many Guardians surrounding me about their Si. I find it depressing, and dark, and not me at all. That's where my unconventionality comes from. I am very much extraverted feeling as a dominant function, which is where I get my conventionality.

I regret to say that I take on my environment so much so that I mimic other types, although this is common among ESFJs and especially ENFJs (both Fe dominant).

I have great respect for the NT ways of the Jedi (heehee). I come here today to your forum because you have the most knowledge to glean for this subject (and many many more). And I have been surrounded by NT friends in the past, although I am very lonely for them and it has been a long, long time.So I learned some Jedi ways.

Still, at all costs, I wouldn't ever nor did I ever want to hurt the feelings of any NTs. I would like to think I can be trusted by NTs. But I understand how to show NTs respect very well, and that is by debate, which I very much enjoy.

In addition, I wrote a mean paper in school as an added benefit of learning from NTs.
 

Shimmy

New member
Joined
Jun 9, 2009
Messages
1,867
MBTI Type
SEXY
For an encyclopedia I'd go with an INTP. However you'll have to steer him in the right direction. Make the project a challenge to him. Set lot's of hardly manageable deathlines for sub projects and don't be surprised if he turns them in late. Get into discussions about the subject to make them explain and validate their decisions. Praise them for the work you are happy with, and honestly criticize them for the work they've done poorly. Make them sweat a little...
 

Afkan

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Jan 3, 2009
Messages
324
For an encyclopedia I'd go with an INTP. However you'll have to steer him in the right direction. Make the project a challenge to him. Set lot's of hardly manageable deathlines for sub projects and don't be surprised if he turns them in late. Get into discussions about the subject to make them explain and validate their decisions. Praise them for the work you are happy with, and honestly criticize them for the work they've done poorly. Make them sweat a little...

Thank you, this is incredibly helpful. And ty for noticing the barely mentioned but very relevant point that I will be managing them.
 

Afkan

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Jan 3, 2009
Messages
324
As an INTP, I'm really good at critiquing things that are related to my field of interest (story telling.) Theater, TV, books, all of that kind of stuff. When it comes to other things, I'm not that good at critiquing because it's not my "forte."

But bc you are an INTP don't you possess advanced knowledge on a variety of subjects? Of course Albert Einstein was pretty focused on very a specific discourse.
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
INTPs are the best critics.

INTJs are the best strategists and implementors/inventors of novel systems.
 

Skyward

Badoom~
Joined
Jul 3, 2008
Messages
1,084
MBTI Type
infj
Enneagram
9w1
For an encyclopedia I'd go with an INTP. However you'll have to steer him in the right direction. Make the project a challenge to him. Set lot's of hardly manageable deathlines for sub projects and don't be surprised if he turns them in late. Get into discussions about the subject to make them explain and validate their decisions. Praise them for the work you are happy with, and honestly criticize them for the work they've done poorly. Make them sweat a little...

+1, my INTP friend has ADD when he isn't interested or pressured, but when he's challenged he flips to something more like OCD. All throughout school he has been stuck in special education classes because he didn't seem to be understanding the stuff in the normal classes. In actuality it was that he wasnt interested. He already knew it, but didn't have the push to do it.

This last year, though, he was in a self-study pre-calculus class that forced him to work for hours a day to be on track. He pulled it off.
 

Shimmy

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+1, my INTP friend has ADD when he isn't interested or pressured, but when he's challenged he flips to something more like OCD. All throughout school he has been stuck in special education classes because he didn't seem to be understanding the stuff in the normal classes. In actuality it was that he wasnt interested. He already knew it, but didn't have the push to do it.

This last year, though, he was in a self-study pre-calculus class that forced him to work for hours a day to be on track. He pulled it off.

I hear you. In high school they almost wouldn't let me do final exams because of my poor grades and lack of showing interest. I was given the choice to do the last year again, or take exams at a lower level of education and not be able to go to university directly. Being the INTP I am I pondered this choice for a week or so, and then someone told me this choice they gave me was ridiculous and I should teach them a lesson for patronizing me this way and make my exams anyway. I liked this (presumably) INTJ's point of view and made my exams. I passed every single one of them.
 

violet_crown

Active member
Joined
Jun 18, 2009
Messages
4,959
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
853
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
What type [in a vacuum] makes the most logical, unbiased, painfully true critique? I am looking for a type that is most naturally capable (and does so actively on the most regular basis) of making a summation not crafted to drive the nail in deeper, sway to their personal point of view, or even flatter/attempt to avoid offending.

Assumptions:
Most likely this type is a rational.
Most likely the type is Introverted for pure internal analysis, also most naturally suited for writing as opposed to speaking/interacting/debating in groups.

I am hung up on the J/P:

Cons-
J would be the most decisive, more likely to have formed opinions on issues already
P's as in INTP's have extraverted feeling, thus more likely to be biased in attempting at times to not hurt feelings

Pros-
J more likely comfortable with drawing an end conclusion
P more likely to weigh both sides of an argument

Of course feel free to argue the first assumptions.
However, please address INTP/INTJ.

For the purposes of this discussion I take the definition of critique in the traditional sense of "discerning judgement or inquiry", and not its more negative connotation. I will discuss the two types individually before comparing.

The stereotype of the INTJ is an individual concerned with ends and outcomes. Additionally, we assume that the primary method of assessing data to be Ni. Thus, an INTj critique should result from a flaw in the functionality of an idea, or the belief that some pattern suggested by the given data indicates either an undesirable or ineffectual long-term outcome.

The INTp archetype is one more concerned with the possibility represented by an idea or concept. These ideas are assumed to be assessed primarily by Ti. INTp critique should therefore be that of logical consistency of qualities intrinsic to the idea itself, or one of the elegance of the idea.

Therefore, which type is the better critic is really a matter of the end of the inquiry, and thus the kind of assessment required. Both, however, are fundamentally concerned with the question "Does it work?", but apparently on different levels. Kind of a draw.

Side note: From personal experience, I think that INTjs are more helpful. They tend to poke holes in whatever you're doing and then tell you how to fix it. All of them are fairly decent at it, but the lesser balanced ones tend to extract the price in blood :(
 

Afkan

New member
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
324
For the purposes of this discussion I take the definition of critique in the traditional sense of "discerning judgement or inquiry", and not its more negative connotation. I will discuss the two types individually before comparing.

The stereotype of the INTJ is an individual concerned with ends and outcomes. Additionally, we assume that the primary method of assessing data to be Ni. Thus, an INTj critique should result from a flaw in the functionality of an idea, or the belief that some pattern suggested by the given data indicates either an undesirable or ineffectual long-term outcome.

The INTp archetype is one more concerned with the possibility represented by an idea or concept. These ideas are assumed to be assessed primarily by Ti. INTp critique should therefore be that of logical consistency of qualities intrinsic to the idea itself, or one of the elegance of the idea.

Therefore, which type is the better critic is really a matter of the end of the inquiry, and thus the kind of assessment required. Both, however, are fundamentally concerned with the question "Does it work?", but apparently on different levels. Kind of a draw.

Side note: From personal experience, I think that INTjs are more helpful. They tend to poke holes in whatever you're doing and then tell you how to fix it. All of them are fairly decent at it, but the lesser balanced ones tend to extract the price in blood :(

I believe that your response has been the most cool, collected, and unbiased. But alas, that doesn't mean a thing bc you stand on middle ground (ENTX).
 
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