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[NT] NT's Opinion on school

jenocyde

half mystic, half skeksis
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Jan 2, 2009
Messages
6,387
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Mostly. I suck at classes that require mass, mindless memorization (like Bio).

I hated biology with a passion.

Almost flunked out of highschool, probably because it is run by sensors.

Did well in college.

Same, but I still graduated a few years early. I got into a good school due to my SATs. I did well enough in high school, but I could have done a lot better if I wasn't out back getting high all day. School was so boring.

Being an NT,

Did you excel at school?

Is theory easier for intuitive types?

Did you find yourself drifting into your own world, wanting to come up with your own theory's, not really caring about the ones being taught?

In your opinion what temperament are schools most geared towards? SJ, SP, NT or NF ?

Any other thoughts on school?

Abt high school:
*I excelled in courses that I attended. I always got As on all my exams and papers, but I had such poor attendance that I almost failed out.
*Theory was simple, but they never taught theory - just rote memorization.
*Always drifted into own world, skipped classes like it was my religion and passed notes relentlessly.
*School is geared towards SJs, imo.
*I hated high school. I hate the way everything is taught. I hate learning something the first day and then listening to the teacher repeat the same damn thing for the next 2 weeks.

For all levels of education: I resent having to do homework because if I have to sit through the class, I shouldn't have to take the material home afterward and learn it properly on my own. I am a firm believer in either studying from the book or going to class, but not both because that's a waste of my time. But maybe that's just me...
 

Ulaes

loopy
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
850
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crak
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sax
Did you excel at school?

no. i occasionally pulled out an A. for the most part, i didnt do homework or pay attention in class or hand my half-assed assingments in on time or even turn up to class. any motivation i did have disppeared when i realised that almost anyone could be at the top of the class and get good grades.
they never let us take intellectual adventures which means i was never stimulated.
i think you'll find a loose P-low achievement/J- high acheivment pattern.

Is theory easier for intuitive types?

its our/my natural language.

Did you find yourself drifting into your own world, wanting to come up with your own theory's, not really caring about the ones being taught?

YES. i dont think i could even help myself.
In english/social studies classes it paid off once or twice (but usually not) and i beat everyone and was commended much to everyones disgust (they had already pegged me as a poor acheiver). tasks in which were apparently about creativity and thinking for yourself were actually worse than the usual. the person who wrote quotes from teh book we were intrepreting then put glitter around the page got an A while i, who came up with a different theme/issue in the book, got a C. the comment being, "this isnt what i told you to write/i dont get it". in mathatical adn technical subjects i laways wanted to figure out how to solve a porblem from scratch but i didnt exactly have the time or the ingenuity to do so in a test in which we were only meant to remember and repeat things said in class.

In your opinion what temperament are schools most geared towards? SJ, SP, NT or NF ?

SJ. "yay, data for me to memorise!" its funny how they always seemed to challenge me and declare themselves as more intelligent because they brought all the right things to class, sounded like parrots and mostly usually had better grade averages but when i easily beat my estj friend on aptitutde tests and some class tests i didnt study for the estj sulked and wounldnt talk to me all day, only to bitch about me behind me back. for some reason you cant be silly/dreamy and smart at the same time? one of the things i always excelled at comphrehnsion but whenever our results came back, apparently i fluked it. an esfj was alwasy calling me stupid aswell, yet their aptitute test scores where horrible and mine were awsome, ... must've fluked that too.

i think all judgers are more likley to do well at school. SJ > NJ

Any other thoughts on school?

i actually came out adn told my parents that i felt like i was trapped in a box without light and they just shrugged their shoulders at me because they didnt get it... (because theyre both Js?). it was horrible, i felt a suffocating fish out of water. i think i have learning differences on top of also being an unhealhty ennegream 5 . i dropped the ball completly by the end of it.
some teachers were alright. naturally i fell in love with the ones that thought i was gifted and/or realised i had learning differences. but for the most part teachers never even knew my name, let alone how my mind worked.
i have so much more baggage you wouldn't believe. but i wont spoilt the thread.


to sum up: i hate that shithole
 
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iamathousandapples

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May 7, 2009
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ISTP
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5w6
2. I never really saw much theory in my time. It was just how to do it.
5. Too many people for anything to actually get done, or to ease my patience
1. Yes, even though I never studied.
3. I always did things my own way because the way that was taught was always 10x longer and more useless than my way.
4. SJs definitely
 

Aerithria

Senior Thread Terminator
Joined
May 18, 2008
Messages
568
MBTI Type
INTJ
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5w4
Did you excel at school?
That I did.

Is theory easier for intuitive types?
For those that are interested in theory, yes.

Did you find yourself drifting into your own world, wanting to come up with your own theory's, not really caring about the ones being taught?
Heh, yeah. And I did, too. Luckily I had several N teachers who were willing to put up with me.

In your opinion what temperament are schools most geared towards? SJ, SP, NT or NF ?
SJs, overall, though some teachers weren't opposed to the occasional bought of N-ness. There was one that had more theoretical discussion in his class than actual work. It was definitely a fun class. That was my high school, though. My university seems to be fairly NF.

Any other thoughts on school?
At least at the high school level, school is one of those things that can be 'figured out'. The reason I breezed through it is because I managed to figure out where I could draw the line between actually working and simply bullshitting my work, which gave me fairly decent grades and a lot of free time to learn the things I was actually interested in.
 

freedom geek

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INTx
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Learning is good but school is a little bit of learning with a whole load of other stuff thrown in there.
 

Verfremdungseffekt

videodrones; questions
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
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866
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5w4
Incidentally, I've one degree fewer than I might because my professor didn't understand my thesis paper and I wasn't in the mood to write a new one to placate him.

I figured, well, I've gone through the process. I've done what's expected of me. Who cares about a piece of paper.

On the other side of the line, one day I strolled into my high school history class to find we were having an exam. I wasn't even sure what we had been studying. I was to complete three or five essay questions, each of which demanded a couple of thousand words. So, well, after staring into space for a while, I just wrote random stories off the top of my head, couching them in reality with the occasional historical detail. I got a B+ on the exam; the only red marks were on the historical details.
 

jellyfish

New member
Joined
Feb 9, 2009
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56
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INTP
1. I was put in gifted classes. My grades were okay. Never below a 3.0, usually above a 3.5. But I am really, really lazy and do homework during class the day it's due, so in my mind I don't really excel. According to my grades I do, in every class except math.
So, overall, sure.

2. I don't know. judging from my and everyone else in the thread's response, yes.


3. I drifted off into my own world after learning what they wanted me to.

4. SJ.

5. School celebrates mediocrity and it is a creativity sucker.
Unless you're like me and learn how to draw during math class instead of working.
Some teachers, like the one who marked me down a letter grade in every deparment because she didn't like my handwriting, should have their teaching licenses taken away.
 

Orangey

Blah
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Jun 26, 2008
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Did you excel at school?
Define "excel." I got As and Bs mostly, and my GPA was above average. I considered it a mediocre performance. It was the highest grade I could get for the least work. Most subjects were intuitively easy for me, so I barely ever needed to study.

Is theory easier for intuitive types?
I imagine so.

Did you find yourself drifting into your own world, wanting to come up with your own theory's, not really caring about the ones being taught?
Certainly.

In your opinion what temperament are schools most geared towards? SJ, SP, NT or NF ?
I always felt like I was in prison when I was in middle and high school, so I'm going to go with SJ. Not so sure about university...it depends on the department, I think.

Any other thoughts on school?
High school certainly did not bring out the best in me in terms of intellectual engagement or growth. Even to the end it seemed like a glorified babysitting deal, and I was, of course, the baby. I think that there needed to be FAR less emphasis on organizational skills, regulation, and punishment, and more on fundamentals. In my specific case, I felt like I learned a whole lot of useless superficial details about subject areas, but never the principles that tied all of these details together as a whole. It was like we were there to learn how to follow rules, and the subject matter was just thrown in there to give us something to do in the meanwhile.
 
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Cimarron

IRL is not real
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Instinctual Variant
sp/so
In your opinion what temperament are schools most geared towards? SJ, SP, NT or NF ?

SJ. The irony is that I don't think SJs actually learn anything from it.

Any other thoughts on school?

Its not - as it claims to be - about learning in the form NTs would use the word. Its about making sure that the majority of people have a way of thinking most useful to society ie I do what I told how I'm told and then I get good stuff.
While this way of thinking is useful to SJs it useless to other types, and in my humble opinion other types are more useful to society.
Good overview, I think I agree with that.

So you guys think grade school is styled toward SJ education, but you do think that university provides more Intuitive style?
 

Verfremdungseffekt

videodrones; questions
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Not in my experience, no.

Certainly not in the music program I was in; completely S-oriented. It quickly bored me. Thus my switch to philosophy. And... that wasn't much better, actually. All citing precedent and page numbers, instead of reasoning for one's self. Urg.

I've learned more about each on Wikipedia than I ever did in college.
 

forzen

New member
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May 7, 2009
Messages
547
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INTJ
Did you excel at school?
Nah, it seems that i did not care too much about school when i was younger.

Is theory easier for intuitive types?
Probably

Did you find yourself drifting into your own world, wanting to come up with your own theory's, not really caring about the ones being taught?
Yes, i often drift to my own world, but in the end theory is useless without practical application. So i try to focus more on whats present atm.

In your opinion what temperament are schools most geared towards? SJ, SP, NT or NF ?
School is geared towards every temperament, its a way to get people to learn because their too lazy to do it themselves.

Any other thoughts on school?
College should be free.
 

Aleph-One

New member
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Apr 13, 2009
Messages
155
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INTJ
School is good for teaching our kids that evolution is "just" a theory, that they can't divide without manipulatives, and how to use "lattice" multiplication to get the wrong answer 100% of the time.

This year's batch of freshmen is the dumbest on record. Fortunately, the academonkeys we have teaching freshmen seminars let them play "heads up, seven up" after they complete their worksheets on maintaining a positive body image.

The good news is that, with fewer students going into math and opting for women's studies instead, I can get some work done.
 

entropie

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Apr 24, 2008
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Did you excel at school?
Nope, barely made it to my Masters degree

Is theory easier for intuitive types?
I have no clue

Did you find yourself drifting into your own world[...]
Yes
[...], wanting to come up with your own theory's, not really caring about the ones being taught?
I dont know

In your opinion what temperament are schools most geared towards?
SJ it seems, but I would say definitly not Ti

Any other thoughts on school?
The german school system has to be reformed gravely. My sister is gettin a hell of a shit education and she is not that cowboy as I was.
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
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Apr 14, 2008
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6,704
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ENFJ
Have any of your teachers tried to use their classes as their own personal therapy sessions?

This year a teacher yelled at me for drawing in class just after she went on about the virtues of doodling for concentration in some article she read. Her justification? My doodles were 'too good' to be doodles.
 

entropie

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I used the class as one, why ? No better dont answer the why, I fear some tragic thing coming
 

Provoker

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Feb 4, 2008
Messages
252
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Did you excel at school?

I glided through elementary and high school relying mainly on raw intellect. In grade 3, I was tested and qualified for the gifted program at my school, though my teacher held me back due to behavioral problems and not reading enough. Nevertheless, when there was a project or assignment that sparked my interest I would attain a great mark. Things started to change in high school when I auditioned for, and was accepted to, a school for the performing arts where I majored in music. In effect, things began to change as my abilities and talents became increasingly recognized. However, as a result of the intense focus on group work and day-to-day assignments, I ofted rebelled against the system and was never able to operate on the level I'm capable. Where I really began to flourish was at university, where I was afforded a high level of independence and a looser structure that gave me some wiggle room to work on my own watch (the way I work best). As a result, in my final two years of undergrad I maintained a 4.0 at the most competitive school in the country, scored a job as a Research Assistant in a class of 250 just because my paper stood out, and got a first round offer into a highly competitive Master's program. Below, I will explain some of reasons for this and what we can learn from it.

Is theory easier for intuitive types?

Intuitively, yes. But I think it's important to be careful of categorical assumptions and when MBTI dichotomies cease to be edifying in the real world. Let's take chess for instance. To the outside observer, good chess seems to require a high level of intuition. Nigel Short describes it as a sort of wisdom and ability to feel your way forward sometimes. Yet, if you ask great chess players themselves about the necessary skills for good chess, many will point to other factors such as an ability to focus. On this point, I submit that an ability to focus--to maintain peak concentration and determination for hours on end--would be much more predictive of the rate at which a person learns theory than whether they are N or S. In effect, an ST with the focus and determination could learn theory easier than a lazy NT, all things equal. But given the assumption that the N is focused, committed, and determined, then yes theory should come easier to an N. However, the counterpoint to be made is that some theory is counterintuitive, which might make it comparatively harder for an N who is used to quickly grasping concepts when they are intuitive. Thus, context will also play an important role in how easy theory is absorbed.

Did you find yourself drifting into your own world, wanting to come up with your own theory's, not really caring about the ones being taught?

Yes. In elementary school and a lot of high school I was understimulated (setting music aside). I couldn't stand most of my peers, disliked group work, disliked having to get up early in the mornings (school would have been much more advantageous for me if it ran later in the day), disliked having teachers calling on me arbitrarily to read a frivolous book I hadn't read (I thought the whole English canon of required reading was uninteresting), disliked stupid handouts with blank lines that we would fill in thoughtlessly, disliked that most of my teachers themselves had no brains, disliked authority in general, disliked the focus on memorization rather than critical thinking, and I disliked that the "why" was left out for the most part. As a result, I use to draw pictures in class, diagrams for traps I planned to implement in the forest, and I played chess with my principle at lunch when I was banned from the school yard when I was 8. In short, when things got boring I retreated into my own world and did my own thing to keep myself occupied. Often, the teacher would ask me a question after I hadn't been paying attention for an hour or so and I'd either wing it or say-with no remorse-that I did not do the readings. There were minor exceptions growing up where I had episodes of stimulation. For instance, a mathematician used to visit the class when I was in grade 2 and later in grades 4 and 5 and he had an impact on me intellectually. But these were exceptions rather than the rule. In retrospect my grade 3 teacher made a miscalculation by not sending me on to the gifted class because understimulation was the very cause of my perpetual misbehavior, and recognition of my talents and abilities would have been the cure.

In your opinion what temperament are schools most geared towards? SJ, SP, NT or NF ?

It depends on what level of education we are talking about. Elementary school and even high school to a great extent is geared toward SJs. The daily tasks and concentration on the here and now works to the advantage of SJs. Moreover, teachers place priority on the memorization of basics rather than critically thinking through the basics. Ironically, only when I began to learn why things are the way they are (particularly at university) was I able to memorize concepts with greater ease. Indeed, it is a characteristic of INTJness that a necessary condition of mastery requires that things make sense in our own logical minds. If the "why" is absent, it's equivalent to being given a phone book and asked to memorize all the numbers for names starting with A. It's just data, void of meaning. Yet with the onset of university, thinking critically was held in higher esteem and it was then that I learned many of the things that were absent in my earlier years. On the other hand, an SJ is less likely to question (or drift off into abstract thought) as the NT and therefore early education which favors memorization and operating in the here and now will be comparatively more advantageous for this type. Also, all things equal, elementary and high school favor E over I. This is the case for several reasons. First, emphasis on group work favors an E over I. E types are more likely to get recognition since they will extrovert their thoughts more then an I. To an outside observer (teacher), it will look like they're contributing more. They will also be more likely to take on a leadership role than an I.

However, at higher levels of education (particularly university) many of these factors break down. Group projects become much more rare (if any at all) which evens out the E advantage. Intuition becomes much more important for critical thinking and questioning the why. Indeed, at higher levels of abstraction, intuitives will be able to move beyond the details and recognize more abstract emergent patterns. In short, it would not suprise me to find a dedicated NT who did mediocre in grade school doing excellent at university, while an SJ who did great in high school is now middle of the pack and realizes that before they only had an inflated sense of academic worth. Intuitively, S-types have an advantage in the short-run since they will work like little beavers before they understand the big picture (which they may never fully comprehend in the end) while the NT might take a little longer at the outset but once things start to click everything that they didn't get before and was stored in their subconscious gets activated.

Any other thoughts on school?

I think education is extremely important in society. But school itself has yielded mixed results for me. University has been an excellent experience, high school was just ok, and elementary school was mediocre. In conclusion, we can establish that elementary school would have been more stimulating and effective for me if it was structured in a similar way as university. That is, I'd prefere less merit placed on group work, interpersonal skills, daily tasks, and memorization, and more emphasis on independence, academic excellence, critical thinking, and constantly addressing the "why".
 

Kangirl

I'm a star.
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Messages
1,470
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ENTJ
Did you excel at school? Yes

Is theory easier for intuitive types? Dunno, wouldn't be surprised, though.

Did you find yourself drifting into your own world, wanting to come up with your own theory's, not really caring about the ones being taught? I very rarely cared about what was being taught (I'm assuming this is about grade school, not post/grad work). I knew what I had to do to get good grades, I did it, and very rarely did actual mind expansion or deep thought come into it.

In your opinion what temperament are schools most geared towards? SJ, SP, NT or NF ? SJ, probably.

Any other thoughts on school? Most education, but grade school especially, rewards two things: 1. ability to follow directions and 2) work ethic. I don't believe one has to be particularly smart to do well in school at all.
 

Splittet

Wannabe genius
Joined
Jun 12, 2007
Messages
632
MBTI Type
INTJ
Did you excel at school?
Yes, although no wunderkind.

Is theory easier for intuitive types?
Yes, having on average higher IQs and more interest in theory.

Did you find yourself drifting into your own world, wanting to come up with your own theory's, not really caring about the ones being taught?
Indeed I have many questions, form many hypothesis, speculate and think of many things that it would be very interesting to research. At the same time I love the theories that already are out there, they make me think, give me ideas, and it's very enjoyable to evaluate their merits. There is beauty in a good theory, and I care for beauty.

If you wanted to achieve something in physics, you couldn't simply start out all on your own and decide to discover the laws of nature. Let's say you are a genius, and you discover on your own the laws of Newton, what purpose does it serve? You wouldn't have made a significant contribution to science, you wouldn't have discovered anything new, just new to you... In order for new knowledge to be gained, you must learn what is already known. Human knowledge is far too great for any single individual to generate new in such disciplines, without having an excellent understanding of what is already known.

And if you are a curious being, how can you keep yourself from reviewing what current science, could you really keep yourself from all that knowledge, just out of spite, so that you could figure it out for yourself. In some cases, I guess, but those would be brain teasers, and not questions requiring massive amounts of scientific research. You would only put such effort into questions that have not been answered.

Further remember that a good theory should give ideas for further research... What satisfies the curious mind is knowledge, and knowledge makes one curious and creative, it expands one's mind, it makes one have more ideas...

In your opinion what temperament are schools most geared towards? SJ, SP, NT or NF ?
SJs, and then NTs and then NFs. The thing is, school is geared towards Js, then Ns. Still, J better predicts achievement than N, but school is more geared towards NTJs than STJs.
 

sunset5678

New member
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Messages
145
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XNTJ
I hated school, it was a dungeon because the teachers were incompetent and
two thirds of the kids were idiots. There were only like three classes I remem
ber out of the entire four years that I learned anything with any kind of real w
orld relevance whatsoever. Why I don't take help from anybody as an adult
because that place has scarred me for life from trusting other people with my future.
 

Blank

.
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
1,201
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INTP
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5w6
I just want to throw out there that in school and stuff, I'll speak up and become one of the most "extroverted" in the classroom because I'm usually interested in learning something, even if the class is pretty boring.
 
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