[MBTI General] XNTP & debating

[2XtremeENFP]

I think an interesting point was all XNTPs agree that it's not about winning, it's about getting wiser? Is this true? Or just an idealistic "NT" thing to say?

For me, granted I'm NF, it all depends on the Argument.

Another interesting point was that INTPs flip flop in their arguments. I've called this out on my friend before and he said it's because of his "Ti trying to figure everything out".. What does he mean by this? As much as I read about Te vs. Ti, I never fully understand it. How could we see these functions in an ENFP vs. iNTP debate?

 

[marmandahalf]

I think an interesting point was all XNTPs agree that it's not about winning, it's about getting wiser? Is this true? Or just an idealistic "NT" thing to say?

For me, it's about discovering the truth of any given situation. I have what I see as true from my limited perspective, the other person has theirs, and through testing of each others' points, we can get closer to what's actually happening. Which is why it confuses me when people get emotional, as if attacking their theory is attacking them.

 

[INA]

Another interesting point was that INTPs flip flop in their arguments. I've called this out on my friend before and he said it's because of his "Ti trying to figure everything out".. What does he mean by this? As much as I read about Te vs. Ti, I never fully understand it. How could we see these functions in an ENFP vs. iNTP debate?

Do they flip flop or are they rigid? So confused . . . Anyway, if they seem to come at it from different angles or start to assume the opposite for arguments' sake, perhaps this is why:

Everyone has an intelligent point somewhere in their words... they're just missing some other bit of information, which I point out.

I'll even bring up a point that supports the other person but that s/he hasn't mentioned sometimes. It's not flipflopping. It's bringing it up to examine then incorporate/discard it.

Certain people's drive to be deemed W1NNAR rather than be correct compels them to discount relevant, sometimes crucial, information or distinctions. I tend to see this as an over-investment in the point argued (and it strikes me as emotional).

On the other hand, the "rigidness" complained of is often a reluctance to let compelling yet ultimately irrelevant points dirty the pool on the way to crystal clearness.

 

[CJ99]

I think an interesting point was all XNTPs agree that it's not about winning, it's about getting wiser? Is this true? Or just an idealistic "NT" thing to say?

The whole reason NTs argue is because it brings us closer to the truth. We also argue for sport. But we enjoy the sport because intellectually challenges us like SPs enjoy sports for their physical challenge.

 

[nocebo]

I think an interesting point was all XNTPs agree that it's not about winning, it's about getting wiser? Is this true? Or just an idealistic "NT" thing to say?

I think it's true. ENTPs and INTPs will often reach different conclusions, but it doesn't matter as long as the logic is solid on both sides. I find that my "arguments" with ENTPs often end up becoming a crazy exchange of information.

 

[ajblaise]

I'll even bring up a point that supports the other person but that s/he hasn't mentioned sometimes. It's not flipflopping. It's bringing it up to examine then incorporate/discard it.

Certain people's drive to be deemed W1NNAR rather than be correct compels them to discount relevant, sometimes crucial, information or distinctions. I tend to see this as an over-investment in the point argued (and it strikes me as emotional).

Yeah, if someone can't confront and rationally assess the strongest points the opposing argument has, even if the opposing side hasn't thought of them, I think that loses the objectivity war. And I would rather be objective than have bystanders and the person I'm arguing against think I've won.

A lot of the time I'll have more foreknowledge of the topic than the other person, so if I don't point out the argument the other person is grasping for, I just plow over them.

 

[Blank]

If an INTP is rigid, there are probably a few reasons for it:

1. They're agitated
2. They could very strongly believe that they are right and could be zealous about it. (It's funny because all you have to do is only argue for an hour. They'll still think they're right, but their views will be changed to your side...if you're a good enough debater.)
3. Other stuff.

If an INTP is flip-floppy, this could also be for a few different reasons:

1. If the debate has drug on without going anywhere, they could be playing devil's advocate.
2. It could be a change of tactics, "attacking" your view.
3. They may not have a strong opinion and are letting out verbally about 5% of what's going on in their head.
4. etc.

Good luck actually trying to change an INTP's mind though. You've got to really know your stuff or manage to hit some kind of truth while BS'ing.

 

[Fluffywolf]

I think an interesting point was all XNTPs agree that it's not about winning, it's about getting wiser? Is this true? Or just an idealistic "NT" thing to say?

For me, granted I'm NF, it all depends on the Argument.

Another interesting point was that INTPs flip flop in their arguments. I've called this out on my friend before and he said it's because of his "Ti trying to figure everything out".. What does he mean by this? As much as I read about Te vs. Ti, I never fully understand it. How could we see these functions in an ENFP vs. iNTP debate?

I love flip flopping!

It's a great way to open my mind, to try and see the bigger picture of it all and eventually reach a more articulated and better conclusion.

It involves cutting arguements that might not seem all that related at first but might fit into the final conclusion.

It's definatly a Ti process. See it like an investigation.



And getting wiser is always my aim in any serious discussion. Winning is only relevant if it's a humorous debate.

 

[Fluffywolf]

You've got to really know your stuff or manage to hit some kind of truth while BS'ing.

I love it when that happens.

Me on about some problem or thesis. Some other person start to Bs around about it, accidentally triggering my Ti-Ne. I'm suddenly serious like "You're right, ah, thanks a lot." And he's like "What did I say?".

 

[2XtremeENFP]

Excuse me for being somewhat uneducated, I am still learning...but...

ENTPs Ne-Ti order versus INTPs Ti-Ne order...in what ways does this affect them?

What's an ENTPs thought process in a heated discussion?
What's an INTPs thought process in a heated discussion?

 

[Orangey]

Do they flip flop or are they rigid? So confused . . . Anyway, if they seem to come at it from different angles or start to assume the opposite for arguments' sake, perhaps this is why:


I'll even bring up a point that supports the other person but that s/he hasn't mentioned sometimes. It's not flipflopping. It's bringing it up to examine then incorporate/discard it.

Certain people's drive to be deemed W1NNAR rather than be correct compels them to discount relevant, sometimes crucial, information or distinctions. I tend to see this as an over-investment in the point argued (and it strikes me as emotional).

On the other hand, the "rigidness" complained of is often a reluctance to let compelling yet ultimately irrelevant points dirty the pool on the way to crystal clearness.

+1

 

[Fluffywolf]

Excuse me for being somewhat uneducated, I am still learning...but...

ENTPs Ne-Ti order versus INTPs Ti-Ne order...in what ways does this affect them?

What's an ENTPs thought process in a heated discussion?
What's an INTPs thought process in a heated discussion?

Ne-Ti - Shoot first, ask questions later.
Ti-Ne - Ask questions first, shoot later.

(joke ofcourse, but not all that far from the truth. )

Basicly, Ti-Ne is naturally more defensively. An INTP will take more time to take recesses, and retreat within from a debate to gather and piece together information during a debate. They let their Ti roll a lot more during. Whilest an ENTP focusses more on the debate itself usually processing most of it afterwards. They let their Ne do most of the active work in a debate.

But both INTP's and ENTP's do and use both, it's just that in these regards, INTPs and ENTPs slightly differ.

Ofcourse it's more balanced than that example. But I think that's what makes the biggest difference in essence.

Essentially the difference is really small. Both INTP's and ENTP's tend to reach similar conclusions. The process of leading up to that conclusion just differs slightly.

 

[thisGuy]

Ne-Ti - Shoot first, ask questions later.
Ti-Ne - Ask questions first, shoot later.

(joke ofcourse, but not all that far from the truth. )

Basicly, Ti-Ne is naturally more defensively. An INTP will take more time to take recesses, and retreat within from a debate to gather and piece together information during a debate. They let their Ti roll a lot more during. Whilest an ENTP focusses more on the debate itself usually processing most of it afterwards. They let their Ne do most of the active work in a debate.

But both INTP's and ENTP's do and use both, it's just that in these regards, INTPs and ENTPs slightly differ.

Ofcourse it's more balanced than that example. But I think that's what makes the biggest difference in essence.

Essentially the difference is really small. Both INTP's and ENTP's tend to reach similar conclusions. The process of leading up to that conclusion just differs slightly.

nooooo...in my experience the conclusions reached are fairly different...ENTPs conclusions match those reached by the INTJ...not sure who matches with INTP...ENTJ?

other than that, i put my stamp of approval on the rest of this post cuz...you know...nothing in this world moves without getting approved by me first

 

[nozflubber]

One thing I notce about myself is I don't explain explain all of the logical steps/scientific basis for my points, i just presume that the other party will give me the benefit of the doubt, or that they understand what I understand. The latter is particularly annoying, I must say...... (since its really my fault for not explaining everything)

 

[Eruca]

If an INTP is rigid, there are probably a few reasons for it:

1. They're agitated
2. They could very strongly believe that they are right and could be zealous about it. (It's funny because all you have to do is only argue for an hour. They'll still think they're right, but their views will be changed to your side...if you're a good enough debater.)
3. Other stuff.

If an INTP is flip-floppy, this could also be for a few different reasons:

1. If the debate has drug on without going anywhere, they could be playing devil's advocate.
2. It could be a change of tactics, "attacking" your view.
3. They may not have a strong opinion and are letting out verbally about 5% of what's going on in their head.
4. etc.

Good luck actually trying to change an INTP's mind though. You've got to really know your stuff or manage to hit some kind of truth while BS'ing.

I'm not sure I agree.

If I appear "Rigid" its because I am busy thinking about your argument and my own using my Ti. If you give a new opinion, it is received and fed straight into my Ti to test for worth, where it will be compared--impartially--to my current views on the subject. This may sound like a chore or even robotic but believe me; I find the process to be organic and swift. Outwardly I might seem rigid but inside I'm having a ball!

More often than not I will be flippy-floppy. To explain this behaviour, it is vital you understand how an INTP views the action of debating.
I do NOT debate to win, show off, or to attack the views of others.
I debate because its fun and its a way to better my understanding and thus myself.
So imagine an INTP's thoughts when he is considering your argument and he comes across another argument contrary to his own. He does not care about winning, but he does care about finding the truth. Of course he states this new argument!

If I "lose" a debate I gain understanding.
If I "win" a debate I gain nothing.

But people always think im BS'ing when I tell them I want to be proven wrong.

 

[Blank]

I wasn't trying to insinuate that those were the ONLY cases where an INTP could be rigid or flip-floppy. I could totally picture the INTP robot having to stop motion to grind the wheels in its head. It's kind of what we do, but that's a different thing than being rigid, in my opinion.

Being rigid in my eyes means being unwilling to bend or move, and I would consider #3 that I listed in flip-floppy to be the case at least 80% of the time.

Then again, I'm just making stuff up as I go along, so feel free to poke holes in it.