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[MBTI General] XNTP & debating

Blackmail!

Gotta catch you all!
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
3,020
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w8
And this is the point. I don't condescend to anyone, I just speak in their comfort zone. I can cross into nastier tones if that's what I'm faced with, but I never lead with that.

Well, I can be quite condescending and intimidating, but that's only a tactic, another ENTP trick. I can switch immediately to diplomacy, if required, and especially if I'm interested.

I guess another difference between INTPs and ENTPs is what motivate them. I'd say INTPs are often tempted to show the outer perfection of their thoughts and systems, and that they use debates as a way to constantly refine them; while ENTPs simply prefer to "get out of boredoom" (as I previously wrote). They argue just for the sake of it, and playing the devil's advocate is their second nature.

ENTPs as I see them, are arrogant only on the surface, rarely on the core.
 

ergophobe

Allergic to Mornings
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
1,210
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w6
^I also enjoy correcting my own spelling and choice of words.

Some of the most fun debates go on in my own head and what you said about foremost impressing yourself in a debate holds true for me too. Conversely, I am most worried about disappointing myself. I am my own harshest critic.

I think ENPs in general use humor more effectively while making the most serious arguments. I use this as a disarming strategy that works rather effectively and makes the context more comfortable for people who might equate debates with conflict. Like others have mentioned on the forum, I don't like to stop debating until the ideas have been explored fully and I have realized that feelers are up for this too as long as they are reassured it is an intellectual exercise. Humor helps to keep the tone friendly.

I also agree with the idea that ENTPs are well-equipped to mirror the strategy of their opponents and use similar strategies effectively on their feet. ENTPs may be better at explaining their arguments to others and see value in doing this while INTPs seem to be less concerned with doing so.
 

Kasper

Diabolical
Joined
May 30, 2008
Messages
11,590
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
Online I give up/lose interest pretty quickly unless I'm having fun or learning something, I don’t have strong views on many things and I’m a lot more interested in seeing and understanding another point of view then convincing someone they’re wrong, the topics that I do have strong opinions on are not really worth debating as I’m probably not going to learn anything. I prefer to debate/discuss/investigate alternate views in person.
 

Blank

.
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
1,201
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
How did you infer this? :huh:

More accurately, I made it sound like, compared between an ENTP and an INTP, as a personality profile, an ENTP would be better equipped at this than INTP (see my justification through functional orders).

To give real world applicability, from my own perspective as an ENTP, engaging with INTPs, this has been the case. You could very well prove this wrong. But, this would not be about comparing an ENTP and an INTP profile, then, but, comparing you to me. Where I just happen to be of the ENTP variety, and you of the INTP variety.

Ya wanna play?



All the time? To prove your intelligence? Meh. Me? I don't gotta prove my intelligence, just disprove theirs if (and only if) they come off condescending. My content of the debate, are my testement to my intelligence, regardless of the bells and whistles (context, being secondary aim of mine..if even an aim, depends).

My main aim and challenge is to always impress myself first, if my audience happens to be as well, meh, so be it. And, as much as I can bullshit others, I can't bullshit myself. Which makes this challenge, imo, more worthy.

Yes. I do want to play.

Easiest way to end a debate is by simply not participating in it. Now doesn't this just blow your mind? An INTP not going to debate. :gasp:
 

Qre:us

New member
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
4,890
^I also enjoy correcting my own spelling and choice of words.

Some of the most fun debates go on in my own head and what you said about foremost impressing yourself in a debate holds true for me too. Conversely, I am most worried about disappointing myself. I am my own harshest critic.

:yes:

I think ENPs in general use humor more effectively while making the most serious arguments. I use this as a disarming strategy that works rather effectively and makes the context more comfortable for people who might equate debates with conflict. Like others have mentioned on the forum, I don't like to stop debating until the ideas have been explored fully and I have realized that feelers are up for this too as long as they are reassured it is an intellectual exercise. Humor helps to keep the tone friendly.

ENTPs are easier to slide into their personal motivation for humour - again, entertaining oneself...which often becomes sarcastic, and not as nice-play-nice as ENFPs.

I also agree with the idea that ENTPs are well-equipped to mirror the strategy of their opponents and use similar strategies effectively on their feet. ENTPs may be better at explaining their arguments to others and see value in doing this while INTPs seem to be less concerned with doing so.

I think this is key. ENTPs are motivated by the external energy....hence, the values from the external world, while INTPs are motivated by their internal energy, so, I can def. see the 'less concern to do so'.
 

avolkiteshvara

New member
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Messages
893
MBTI Type
YaYa
I think another component is speed.

I would think an INTP would take more time thinking about stuff than the ENTP; this could be frustrating to someone wanting to engage immediately. But I feel like I can maintain a sustained engagement with many great pauses.

Or I could be just talking out my ass.
 

ergophobe

Allergic to Mornings
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
1,210
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w6
ENTPs are easier to slide into their personal motivation for humour - again, entertaining oneself...which often becomes sarcastic, and not as nice-play-nice as ENFPs.
This is my achilles heel. The intention at my end is never to hurt with humor but I am just not gifted at realizing where this invisible divider falls between humor that falls on the playing nice side and humor that hurts. Feelers are so much better at seeing this line. I'll use humor and think other people are as thick-skinned as I am. Particularly with friends, I'll let my guard down and share more of my off-brand humor and suddenly get this "ooh that hurt expression" which always shocks me. The intention was never to hurt - I just can't help but get competitive even with humor in the way of saying what seems funniest not what seems to be the funny yet suitably nice thing to say.
 
R

Riva

Guest
Online I give up/lose interest pretty quickly unless I'm having fun or learning something,

So true. I have the same ISSUE. The reason i think it is an issue is because I tend to start an argument and lose interest before making my point being heard(ONLINE).

+ typing an argument is not as fun as verbalizing one.
INTPs don't seem to have this issue. They seem to enjoy writing things more than any other type. Long............

But you could learn more from an INTP argument than an ENTP one. INTPs i think are the best teachers. They have more concentration than the ENTPs, thus go deep into a subject much more than an ENTP could tolerate, explore more possibilities and putting it into sentences(in writing) step by step in a more understandable and neat/er way.
 

nocebo

New member
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Messages
89
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
7
It's interesting that INTPs are coming off as closed-minded and stubborn in an argument. I can do several 360 turns when I'm "arguing." XD
And argument is usually playtime for me, also. :D

However, I'm completely clueless as to whether a person is understanding my words or not, and the extreme conciseness can come off as rigid, but it's really not! My goal is just to be as accurate and logical as possible, even if my viewpoint is changing. (That doesn't really sound like playtime, does it? But it is! Oh, it is!)
 

nocebo

New member
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Messages
89
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
7
Well, most of the time, INTPs are almost devoid of any F function. They are global system thinkers, they simply do not understand Feelers, or look very childish when under the influence of Fe or Fi.

And you know, people often attack what they do not understand, or pretend it doesn't exist if the new parameter doesn't seem to fit, if they cannot integrate it into their internal system.

---

A typical ENTP will also experience lot of difficulties to understand Fi (it's really alien for us), but at last, we do not dismiss it as a possible valid behavior. You won't be judged or considered "inferior" for that. It's the magic of Ne-dom! :newwink:

It's not so much ignoring feelings all together... but they don't really have a place in debate. Feelings are important and all, but since they're subjective, they're not the same for everyone. How can you persuade someone of something if it's based on your subjective feelings?

It's still a valid viewpoint.
It's just... not what the debate is for.

(Now... if someone asked me... advice on overcoming a relationship problem, then it would be necessary to take feelings into consideration, and I would. Everything works in a context.)
 

chris1207

New member
Joined
Apr 11, 2008
Messages
467
MBTI Type
XNXX
Enneagram
3w2
My goal is just to be as accurate and logical as possible, even if my viewpoint is changing.

I've been reading this whole topic to spot something like this. What INTP's don't seem to realize is that if you change your viewpoint or the whole basis for your argument in a debate you've lost. No J is going to respect a single word you say because you obviously don't know what you're talking about. You can dress it up in T garnishes all you want but that doesn't change the fact that you've conceded the debate. :)
 

Fluffywolf

Nips away your dignity
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Messages
9,581
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INTP
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9
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I've been reading this whole topic to spot something like this. What INTP's don't seem to realize is that if you change your viewpoint or the whole basis for your argument in a debate you've lost. No J is going to respect a single word you say because you obviously don't know what you're talking about. You can dress it up in T garnishes all you want but that doesn't change the fact that you've conceded the debate. :)

I thought the point of debating is to get the wiser, not to beat others in it.
 

CJ99

Is Willard in Footloose!!
Joined
Jan 5, 2009
Messages
582
MBTI Type
ENTP
Well, most of the time, INTPs are almost devoid of any F function. They are global system thinkers, they simply do not understand Feelers, or look very childish when under the influence of Fe or Fi.

And you know, people often attack what they do not understand, or pretend it doesn't exist if the new parameter doesn't seem to fit, if they cannot integrate it into their internal system.

---

A typical ENTP will also experience lot of difficulties to understand Fi (it's really alien for us), but at last, we do not dismiss it as a possible valid behavior. You won't be judged or considered "inferior" for that. It's the magic of Ne-dom! :newwink:
And most of the time, we are more curious than obnoxiously argumentative. We are curious even of Fi, and what this function could possibly mean.

Extreme intellectual curiosity is a distinct trait we share with our ENFP brethren. We take into consideration every possibility, however dissonant it may appear at first glance. Anything that gets us out of boredoom.

Yeah you have a point about curiosity in Fi. I actually try debate my sis and my ESFP friend to try to figure out what i'm feeling at times.
 

CJ99

Is Willard in Footloose!!
Joined
Jan 5, 2009
Messages
582
MBTI Type
ENTP
I think ENFPs problem might be that INTPs will go more indepth whereas ENTPs thinker wider and ENFPs like ENTPs prefer to go wide and look at all the points of view rather than go more indepth which most INTPs will go.
Not that ENxPs can't go indepth or INTPs go wide. I mean relative to the other they can't go as wide or indepth.
 

Winds of Thor

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Jan 11, 2009
Messages
1,842
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3w4
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sx/so
how can you tell the difference between ENTPs and INTPs in the style that they debate?

I enjoy debating with ENTPs but not with INTPs and I can't put my finger on why.

INTPs can have an attitude which permeates the debate...It's like "Such and such is obvious you idiot. I can't believe I am having to get everyone else up to speed on this." :)
 

Asterion

Ruler of the Stars
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
2,331
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INTP
Enneagram
5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I know an ISTJ that does the same thing as the INTPs, he argues, but it's in such a serious (rigid?) way. He likes the information gained from it, he likes to talk to people and such things, but in the end, the other person ends up frustrated. I can argue with the same people (unintentionally arguing of course), and it's usually good fun (unless I completely fail to get my view across).
 

Sentura

Phoenix Incarnate
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
750
MBTI Type
ENXP
Enneagram
1w9
INTPs can have an attitude which permeates the debate...It's like "Such and such is obvious you idiot. I can't believe I am having to get everyone else up to speed on this." :)

exactly! it's their S.
 

nocebo

New member
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Messages
89
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
7
I've been reading this whole topic to spot something like this. What INTP's don't seem to realize is that if you change your viewpoint or the whole basis for your argument in a debate you've lost. No J is going to respect a single word you say because you obviously don't know what you're talking about. You can dress it up in T garnishes all you want but that doesn't change the fact that you've conceded the debate. :)

I thought the point of debating is to get the wiser, not to beat others in it.

Ditto. I think both XNTPs agree on this bit.
Winning/losing doesn't mean much. It's what you get from the process.

I know an ISTJ that does the same thing as the INTPs, he argues, but it's in such a serious (rigid?) way. He likes the information gained from it, he likes to talk to people and such things, but in the end, the other person ends up frustrated. I can argue with the same people (unintentionally arguing of course), and it's usually good fun (unless I completely fail to get my view across).

Yeah... I think this is the key difference. :[
Maybe we could crack a few jokes throughout the debate to lighten it. I don't really know what else to do, but I definitely come off as more rigid than my ENTP friend.

INTPs can have an attitude which permeates the debate...It's like "Such and such is obvious you idiot. I can't believe I am having to get everyone else up to speed on this." :)

Oh common now!
I honestly have no idea how people can say that!

We just really want to express our ideas to people, and I've always listened very carefully to what everyone has to say before picking it apart.

See... it's not the person that I'm criticizing, it's the inaccuracies in their argument! No one's an idiot. Everyone has an intelligent point somewhere in their words... they're just missing some other bit of information, which I point out.

But yeah. I realize that it doesn't come off that way.
Someone help. How can I stop offending people just by talking? :[

Arghghghgh gah gah :confused:
 
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