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[NT] Driving NTs crazy: It's what Feelers do...

sculpting

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Hi Guys,

This got brought up on another thread but I wanted to dig a little deeper to try and understand the root of the problem. I have really pissed off thinkers in the past unintentionally by making assumptions and presumptions about how they feel internally. It totally took me by suprise and I felt terrible as it was unintentional. I would like to understand exactly how and what it is that feelers are doing that provokes this response. I think it may be something inherent that we do instinctually, but in order to not do it, I have to understand it.

Her's a few quotes and some questions I was using to try and tease apart where the breakdown/miscommunication is occuring.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jenocyde
I think there's a tendency for some people to project their feelings onto me because that's what they would feel if they were in my shoes. And when I assert that I do not feel that way at all, I am told that I am in denial or out of touch with my emotions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by digesthisickness
bingo. or covering up/lying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
yes, to me it seems like they are inventing my emotions and prosecuting me for them.
the type to understand you the best has got to be your own.


1) do you guys think you may be showing physiological signs of an emotional response but be unaware you are doing so? Ie you dont know what you are feeling exactly? So the NF picks it up subtle cues, tries to describe it, then screws up as you guys are still not even aware of exactly what is going on yourselves? (Just a Q I really have no idea, so no offense please)

2) Is it this mistaken perception, or the following persecution that is most offensive? (persecution?? what is that exactly, as thats a crazy strong word, and I hope I'd never do that)

3) Or is that maybe they saw and tried to describe what you were projecting outwards before you had a chance to understand it yourself? And thus it is the presumption that they understand that is so offensive, when you do not understand quite yet.

4) does it bother you more that they try and descibe your thoughts, your feelings, or your motivations?

5) Do you find this gets used as tool against you when in conflict with an NF? And then you are assigned feelings, motivations and such which are incorrect. (and on that note, potentially later, after analysis, could some of it have been correct?)

6) is part of the offense that someone would even try and understand your emotions? Ie its none of our business in the first place?

Again I have no idea, so no offense please, just trying to scope out the problem better
 

Virtual ghost

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Well, when it comes to this I thend to get annoyed but nothing more.



The problem starts when a feeler starts to claim that you are lying to them and yourself. If a feeler just says "ok then" then everything is Ok.
The problem (at leat in my case) is that feelers have a hard time picturing the "empthiness" of my mind.


For example many people think I am afraid of people, what is simply is not true. It is just that I am not interested in a huge amount of things in which they are. Since I am so detached people like to presume that I am quite depressed what is not true as well.
Especially since I have the tendency not to feel even when that would be quite normal or desirable.



Also feelers are more likely to "exlpode" what means that you have to argue with them and if you do not you will make things even worse. But when you start to argue with them they start to think you are mean towards them. Sometimes they can even hold a grudge against you because of this since we can often good at arguing.
 

Fluffywolf

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Before I begin, what I write here depends on my relationship towards the feeler. The importance of that feeler to me. Generally, this is how I view such situations. But there are exceptions.

1) do you guys think you may be showing physiological signs of an emotional response but be unaware you are doing so? Ie you dont know what you are feeling exactly? So the NF picks it up subtle cues, tries to describe it, then screws up as you guys are still not even aware of exactly what is going on yourselves? (Just a Q I really have no idea, so no offense please)

I used to when I was younger and immature, when other peoples opinions mattered more to me than my own opinion, but not for some years now.

2) Is it this mistaken perception, or the following persecution that is most offensive? (persecution?? what is that exactly, as thats a crazy strong word, and I hope I'd never do that)

I think it differs from person to person. And maturity is also a big role in this. I think the stereotype is a misconception as not only NT's suffer from this when immature, all types do. Either way I do not have a particular problem with either anymore.

3) Or is that maybe they saw and tried to describe what you were projecting outwards before you had a chance to understand it yourself? And thus it is the presumption that they understand that is so offensive, when you do not understand quite yet.

When I am projecting, I've always had a very firm grasp on what I was projecting. That said, I may have an entirely different opinion about what it is then how a feeler would describe it. If a feeler would insist that I am wrong and they are right I would hold no respect for their opinion and just move on unscathed. But wether you believe I am clueless or not is not of my concern. It's more often than not mutual.

4) does it bother you more that they try and descibe your thoughts, your feelings, or your motivations?

Not at all, I often find it cute and harmless, even if I would disagree with them. Unless they attempt to force their opinions on me, in which case I will strategically retreat or if that's impossible sling some razorsharp comments at them that should be sufficient to quell the situation.

5) Do you find this gets used as tool against you when in conflict with an NF? And then you are assigned feelings, motivations and such which are incorrect. (and on that note, potentially later, after analysis, could some of it have been correct?)

Not at all. If anything, NF's with this conception only push them further away from me. Causing me to loose my respect in them, and thus the importance of their opinion over me. I do not care what the people I don't respect think about me. From my perspective, they only have themselves with such actions. As for 'could some of it be correct.'. I believe if we really want to we can find truths in everything. That doesn't mean one truth cancels out another truth. So no, they're never more right.

6) is part of the offense that someone would even try and understand your emotions? Ie its none of our business in the first place?

If I want to respect a feeler that is going offense to me, and I want to reach a consensus because the feeler is in some way important to me. Then my offense would be solely to reach a middle ground or a form of understanding. If I do not care about my relationship towards the feeler then I would put up no offense, bar a few words to be done with it. Ie. get them off my back. In no case am I concerned with what is and isn't their business. People believing they know me better then I know myself usually crack me up though.



In the end, mutual respect is what matters most. I can totally respect a feelers view onto things, as long as they can give the same respect in return. So this is never a problem unless a feeler insists. And if they insist I will most assuredly break all ties, if that feeler is close to me. Or at least keep them on a controllable distance as to not get annoyed by their stuck up chauvanistic attitude constantly.

If you're a feeler and you go offense on me, and I defend myself and argue back towards you. This should NEVER be seen as me being annoyed or cornered in any way. The only reason for my defense and offense towards you is solely based on the respect I have for you. And if anything should be considered a compliment. I never feel cornered or threatened when it comes to my opinions.
 

ajblaise

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1) do you guys think you may be showing physiological signs of an emotional response but be unaware you are doing so? Ie you dont know what you are feeling exactly? So the NF picks it up subtle cues, tries to describe it, then screws up as you guys are still not even aware of exactly what is going on yourselves? (Just a Q I really have no idea, so no offense please)

Yeah definitely, but sometimes I notice that I've done one of these subtle cues while knowing it's not attached to any real emotion, or it is attached to an emotion, but it has nothing to do with what the person thinks it does i.e. I could have a skeptical look on my face while in thought, and then someone walks in, and I look at them while still looking skeptical. So they might think/feel I was having really critical thoughts about them, when it was about someone totally unrelated.

2) Is it this mistaken perception, or the following persecution that is most offensive?

Persecution, if I think it's inaccurate, more than the perception. I think feelers are likely to get the emotion right in identifying it in people, but can mistake the level of intensity. For instance, a light passing emotion in someone could get interpreted as a strong and deafening emotion.

3) Or is that maybe they saw and tried to describe what you were projecting outwards before you had a chance to understand it yourself? And thus it is the presumption that they understand that is so offensive, when you do not understand quite yet.

I don't mind this, I value the insight and new information. Even if something is wrong, it still reflects some part of reality and tells a certain truth.

4) does it bother you more that they try and descibe your thoughts, your feelings, or your motivations?

It can, but when I agree with what they're saying it definitely doesn't. If I disagree, then I feel like l have to clear something up.

5) Do you find this gets used as tool against you when in conflict with an NF? And then you are assigned feelings, motivations and such which are incorrect. (and on that note, potentially later, after analysis, could some of it have been correct?)

I have before, but I really haven't been in that many NF-emotional-traps.

6) is part of the offense that someone would even try and understand your emotions? Ie its none of our business in the first place?

Nah.
 

laintpe

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1) do you guys think you may be showing physiological signs of an emotional response but be unaware you are doing so? Ie you dont know what you are feeling exactly? So the NF picks it up subtle cues, tries to describe it, then screws up as you guys are still not even aware of exactly what is going on yourselves? (Just a Q I really have no idea, so no offense please)

I mostly am accused of looking high or "out of it", but occasionally my friend will ask me what is wrong and i'll have no idea what inspired that question.

2) Is it this mistaken perception, or the following persecution that is most offensive? (persecution?? what is that exactly, as thats a crazy strong word, and I hope I'd never do that)

Neither really bothers me.. unless the person is incessant ("Tell me what is wrong! I know something is bothering you!" etc)

3) Or is that maybe they saw and tried to describe what you were projecting outwards before you had a chance to understand it yourself? And thus it is the presumption that they understand that is so offensive, when you do not understand quite yet.

not so much

4) does it bother you more that they try and descibe your thoughts, your feelings, or your motivations?

not really.. again, unless they are insisting and relentless... or if the topic is becoming useless.

5) Do you find this gets used as tool against you when in conflict with an NF? And then you are assigned feelings, motivations and such which are incorrect. (and on that note, potentially later, after analysis, could some of it have been correct?)

i don't really run into this. what bothers me more is when a certain esfp asks pointless questions or needs blunt "leave me alone" statements to realize he has depleted my patience reserves.

6) is part of the offense that someone would even try and understand your emotions? Ie its none of our business in the first place?
 

marmandahalf

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I just don't get why it upsets y'all when we don't feel something about a situation. When a Feeler is like, "How do you feel about this?" and my honest-to-God answer is, "I don't," he or she tends to act as if I'm trying to upset them.

I know what emotion feels like. I just don't have an emotional response to every, or even most, situations. This doesn't make me a monster. This makes me an NT.
 

Amargith

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Just answer with what you 'think' of it. Usually we just want an opinion, but we use the word 'feel' as that's how we determine things. It doesn't occur to us that you guys judge in a 'thinking' way :D
 

Fluffywolf

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Depends on the feeler, Amargith.

I've had situations in which I was asked about emotions where I responded admittedly quite cool and unemotional, a thorough explanation, as to my stance on the subject presented. And some people just go all eerie silence like as if I am some serial killer or something. :D

I usually add an evil grin that really makes them think twice, teehee.
 

thisGuy

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1) do you guys think you may be showing physiological signs of an emotional response but be unaware you are doing so? Ie you dont know what you are feeling exactly? So the NF picks it up subtle cues, tries to describe it, then screws up as you guys are still not even aware of exactly what is going on yourselves? (Just a Q I really have no idea, so no offense please)
nope. we are usually always aware of what people think we SHOULD feel. dont mean we do. especially if its one of the taboo emotions like anger and jealousy. and theres not enough nude pics in the world to get me embarrased...or it just hasnt happened yet
2) Is it this mistaken perception, or the following persecution that is most offensive? (persecution?? what is that exactly, as thats a crazy strong word, and I hope I'd never do that)
i dont get what that means.

if you mean that i think i should be feeling something but i just ignore it and you point this out leading me to get angry with you, then...

well, it depends on the situation but in most cases emotions just don't show up like that. why? cuz i know the source of the feeling. once that mystry is out of the way, everything falls into it's correct places and reason takes over and emotion well...whatever hormones were released get subdueded i guess

this mechanism can be overriden by obsessing over something...for me, THAT takes concious effort

one thing i can't fully understand is love...or maybe i just dont want to

3) Or is that maybe they saw and tried to describe what you were projecting outwards before you had a chance to understand it yourself? And thus it is the presumption that they understand that is so offensive, when you do not understand quite yet.
that can very well be it...cuz that implies that entity B is telling entity A what entity A is doing. unless A has lots and lots of respect for B, A is prolly gonna punch B in the face

that said, everyone has different way of dealing with emotions. so if the root of the emotion is point X, lets say it goes through point Y and then Z for for you as an ENFP.
for me as an ENTP (or just another person), it might go through X then Y then M OR X then E then G

so you see, you just might be projecting your emotions on to me.

4) does it bother you more that they try and descibe your thoughts, your feelings, or your motivations?

you imply that you understand me better than i understand than myself. thats like a kick to my ego's crotch. better know your audience first.

also, it doesn't really bother me as much as it annoys me. why? because there is a chance that you might be wrong about my inner motivations. if i tell you that, you are gonna blame it on me beign in denial or not facing myself. what the hell am i supposed to do with an attitude like that?


5) Do you find this gets used as tool against you when in conflict with an NF? And then you are assigned feelings, motivations and such which are incorrect. (and on that note, potentially later, after analysis, could some of it have been correct?)

they try, but they constantly understimate me.

trust me on this, if theres even a slight chance of me feeling something, ive probably alread explored that possibility. you might bring some valid and encouraging points to the table to help me highligh it. but this ONLY applies when i dont know what im feeling.

if i do have some in linking to what im feeling and you try to tell me its something else then you are underestinmating my intelligence and doing a good job of convincing me that your ignorant

6) is part of the offense that someone would even try and understand your emotions? Ie its none of our business in the first place?
personally i dont really care...i am what i am. what you see is what you get, like it or love it
 

ceecee

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Just answer with what you 'think' of it. Usually we just want an opinion, but we use the word 'feel' as that's how we determine things. It doesn't occur to us that you guys judge in a 'thinking' way :D

And it doesn't occur to us that the feelers expect us to "feel" about something. I know when I say "I don't know" or "I have no feeling on that" or "I don't care" that's what I truly feel. It's not masking something else I want to keep secret. I don't have much of an issue with my NF now. But it took years for that understanding to come about. That and when I want to switch off and not talk and be alone, read, whatever, it's not a sign of a problem. I think, in general, the feelers want us to do exactly what they do. That isn't possible. I have to sometimes phrase things in different ways than I would naturally because they can sound blunt and hurtful and I realize that. All I ask is for the the feelers not to take not having a feeling on something as a personal slight.
 

Misty_Mountain_Rose

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1) do you guys think you may be showing physiological signs of an emotional response but be unaware you are doing so? Ie you dont know what you are feeling exactly? So the NF picks it up subtle cues, tries to describe it, then screws up as you guys are still not even aware of exactly what is going on yourselves? (Just a Q I really have no idea, so no offense please)

I think that when these fallouts have happened to me, its mostly the other person mis-interpreting what they're seeing. If I have been talkative all day at work, and suddenly close my office door, there are people here at work who think I'm upset about something when really all I want is to be left alone for a bit because I need a few minutes to myself. Every time I close my door, when I do emerge I have at least 2-3 people asking me what's wrong.

What they MAY be picking up on is the anxious, semi-irritation at having been so 'on' for a great length of time, but they don't realize it has nothing to do with them or even a specific situation. Its just an urge to get away for a while.

2) Is it this mistaken perception, or the following persecution that is most offensive? (persecution?? what is that exactly, as thats a crazy strong word, and I hope I'd never do that)

This is a tossup... while I like to be able to clear up misunderstandings, which used to happen more frequently before I learned how to express myself better, sometimes it can get wearisome and I just kind of give up clearing up the misunderstandings. I let them think what they want, knowing that they're projecting on to me more of what THEY feel than what I feel. Usually this leads them to think they are right though, which can compound the problem. This leads to a very 'I don't care what others think' kind of attitude, which then can be seen as selfish and aloof... which may be true, but it isn't because I don't like them, its because I'm exhausted from trying to explain myself. In the end, its easier just to retract.

3) Or is that maybe they saw and tried to describe what you were projecting outwards before you had a chance to understand it yourself? And thus it is the presumption that they understand that is so offensive, when you do not understand quite yet.

No, their assumptions about what I'm feeling are usually just... wrong. Most often then will ascribe motives for my actions that couldn't be further from the truth. I tend to operate on a minute by minute basis without much thought to what others are thinking. I take pretty much everything at face value and wish that others would do the same with me. If someone says they don't want to go to lunch, I don't assume they secretly DO want to go but have some reason for saying No the first time. I don't really play the kinds of games that other people play, and don't understand or even register petty behaviour meant to 'prove a point' to someone. I sit in confused amazement watching the few people I've known well enough who are the kind that are always scheming and wondering what motivates others. I just don't put that much time and energy into worrying about the why and what-for of everyone else. Why bother? I think they are equally confused by my lack of interest or thought on the topics that they brood over.

4) does it bother you more that they try and descibe your thoughts, your feelings, or your motivations?

It doesn't bother me that they try to figure out any of the three. What bothers me is when I tell them flat out the thoughts, feelings or motivations and they don't believe me.

5) Do you find this gets used as tool against you when in conflict with an NF? And then you are assigned feelings, motivations and such which are incorrect. (and on that note, potentially later, after analysis, could some of it have been correct?)

This drives me insane. I've been in heated arguments with NF's before who vehemently attacked me for not believing them when they tried to tell me how I feel and what motivates me. And no, they don't turn out to be right after analysis.

I had one of my good NF friends tell me that I purposely reject everything to do with what others consider 'normal' just because I don't want to follow the crowd. His examples were: Tanning, Wearing Designer Clothes, Getting my Hair Done, Shopping, etc. In other words, I don't look and act like a 'normal' woman. I looked at him in confusion and when I told him that I liked my jeans and t-shirts he told me I was a liar and just trying to not follow the crowd. :shock: We didn't speak for months after this argument.

6) is part of the offense that someone would even try and understand your emotions? Ie its none of our business in the first place?

I don't mind people asking me personal questions... in fact, a lot of times its a relief because I tend not to simply offer the information. I just wish that they would accept my explanation the first time.

Hope these help :D
 

CJ99

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1) do you guys think you may be showing physiological signs of an emotional response but be unaware you are doing so? Ie you dont know what you are feeling exactly? So the NF picks it up subtle cues, tries to describe it, then screws up as you guys are still not even aware of exactly what is going on yourselves? (Just a Q I really have no idea, so no offense please)

Hmm maybe in stressful times but most NTs don't give off much emotional data. Most of what we give off is what we think we need to to not piss off other people.

2) Is it this mistaken perception, or the following persecution that is most offensive? (persecution?? what is that exactly, as thats a crazy strong word, and I hope I'd never do that)

Oh hell yeah. If we think your wrong and you insist your right well that pisses off most NTs but when the subjest is our feelings. Seriously just run before we destroy you:devil::devil: We NTs like to be in control of ourselves and to know everything so the fact you are trying to say that you know something about oursleves that we don't is sort of scary. Especially when its emotions as we are all too aware that thats are weak spot so while we are insisting you are wrong theres a little voice that goes "well actully we don't know much about that so they could be right :doh:"

3) Or is that maybe they saw and tried to describe what you were projecting outwards before you had a chance to understand it yourself? And thus it is the presumption that they understand that is so offensive, when you do not understand quite yet.


Yeah well that connects in with the thing about the little voice. Some else knowing something we don't aout something so personal is sorta scary.

4) does it bother you more that they try and descibe your thoughts, your feelings, or your motivations?

Yeah that is a factor as NT are frequently not really understood by people in general. So when yet another person tries to understand me its annoying cause less than a handful of people understand me very well and yet more people try and once again fail.

5) Do you find this gets used as tool against you when in conflict with an NF? And then you are assigned feelings, motivations and such which are incorrect. (and on that note, potentially later, after analysis, could some of it have been correct?)

Actually most NFs just try and mock me for my lack of emotion like i do to their lack of logic and that approach just fails as my lack of emotion doesn't really bother me as much as they think it would.

6) is part of the offense that someone would even try and understand your emotions? Ie its none of our business in the first place?


hmm. At times it annoys me but at times I like being an enigma for them to try crack. Not sure bout this one.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I'm wondering if the underlying issue is a sense of dismissal for both parties. To be told you are lying and not knowing or being honest about your true self and feelings is a deep dismissal of the person. When someone labeled as a Feeler does this, they are primarily dismissing the other person. It might be that a lack of emotional response in certain settings can also feel like dismissal. If someone comes home from work and has been treated badly by the people and their Thinker friend has no emotional response, it could be interpreted as dismissal. This kind of thing can go in vicious cycles.

I'm also wondering is it Feelers who do this or is it people who do this who are called Feelers? I would like to suggest people guard against thinking about the worst few offenders in your life as being anything related to the norm. I guess because the topic is emotion it seems reasonable to assume Feelers overall, but still important to take it with a grain of salt. (although technically Feeler is not equivalent to emotion, so I'm not sure if that is the right assumption)

Edit: One more thought - in emotional dialog, withdrawal of emotion can be associated with anything from pouting, passive-aggression, anger, disdain, etc. If the assumption is one of emotional communication then withholding doesn't generally have a positive connotation.
 

Blank

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I'm wondering if the underlying issue is a sense of dismissal for both parties. To be told you are lying and not knowing or being honest about your true self and feelings is a deep dismissal of the person. When someone labeled as a Feeler does this, they are primarily dismissing the other person. It might be that a lack of emotional response in certain settings can also feel like dismissal. If someone comes home from work and has been treated badly by the people and their Thinker friend has no emotional response, it could be interpreted as dismissal. This kind of thing can go in vicious cycles.

Edit: One more thought - in emotional dialog, withdrawal of emotion can be associated with anything from pouting, passive-aggression, anger, disdain, etc. If the assumption is one of emotional communication then withholding doesn't generally have a positive connotation.

Good post; I'll have to keep that in mind more often now.

I don't know, I think there are fundamental differences in the way NTs and Feelers approach things. It's perfectly logical to trust your emotions and act upon them to a certain extent, which is what feelers do, however, as an NT I try to look at a situation objectively.

Example: Let's say I lost my house. A Feeler could look at me and think I'd be devastated, considering the circumstances and would imply that this was the case. If I denied that, and they pressed the issue, it could seem as though I am heartless or self-destructive, whereas I could look at the situation in numerous ways:

1. I may not have a house, but it's not like I don't have anywhere to go.
2. There are many, many more people in a worse situation than I am.
3. My life isn't over, so there's no point acting like it.

It would be perfectly natural to break down in that kind of situation, but then I would have to admit that those icky-sticky emotions exist in the first place.:alttongue:
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Good post; I'll have to keep that in mind more often now.

I don't know, I think there are fundamental differences in the way NTs and Feelers approach things. It's perfectly logical to trust your emotions and act upon them to a certain extent, which is what feelers do, however, as an NT I try to look at a situation objectively.

Example: Let's say I lost my house. A Feeler could look at me and think I'd be devastated, considering the circumstances and would imply that this was the case. If I denied that, and they pressed the issue, it could seem as though I am heartless or self-destructive, whereas I could look at the situation in numerous ways:

1. I may not have a house, but it's not like I don't have anywhere to go.
2. There are many, many more people in a worse situation than I am.
3. My life isn't over, so there's no point acting like it.

It would be perfectly natural to break down in that kind of situation, but then I would have to admit that those icky-sticky emotions exist in the first place.:alttongue:
That makes sense. People who deal with crises using emotion vs. excluding emotion are likely to have confusion especially at that point. I will note though that even though I'm an NF, I approach crisis in a rigorously analytical, pragmatic manner. I identify with much of what you said here. If I lost my house there is some place inside me that would be devastated, but I would find it necessary to disregard any energy drain until the problem was solved. There's a good chance I would show no emotion, and put the cards on the table and get to work. Then when it was all settled, I'd probably have headaches and exhaustion for a good month in recuperation from the ordeal. If I did have emotional outbursts during the crisis, they would be planned (I've done that in the past during distressing times). Over the last year I went through a great deal of crisis and uncertainty that required very complex problem solving. I did get raked over the coals a couple of times by people who didn't understand the way I thought about it and was told I was not normal for being analytical in crisis, but that happened between two Feelers. There are thinkers who get quite emotional in crisis because at that point, logic escapes them. The is a strongly individual component here. I'm still not convinced there is much consistency in drawing this as an F vs. T issue, although I can certainly see why the assumption would be there because of the presence of emotions.

Edit: I'll just add that I have been hurt by lack of emotional response in my life and I've been hurt by people who get angry when I don't communicate feelings. I don't see one as worse than the other. It is all just people being people and having miscommunication. The variety is actually something to be desired and helps to moderate the overall potential for hurt because it allows one to view the problems from different vantage points.
 

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Toonia hitting the nail on the head as usual there... :)

My main issue with Feelers (when I have those issues, which I don't really in RL very often) is more like this: I do feel things, I'm quite sure I do. Sometimes I'm aware of it, sometimes I'm not. But regardless, that feeling is not the primary motivation behind my words or opinions. It's not where I am to be found.

Look at it this way. A Feeler might THINK somebody's stupid, but if it's someone they love and care about for other good qualities that they have, then that feeling of love and loyalty overrides the intellectual knowledge that they're stupid. The Feeler would be extremely upset if the person said "But I know that you think I'm less bright than you, so I don't believe you when you say you care about me" - they'd feel like the person was honing in on the wrong part of their make-up and giving it too much significance, whilst not giving enough to the part that really does matter - their feeling of love and loyalty. This process of course happens with Thinkers too, but it's because it's pretty universal and recognizable that I've picked it as an example.

What I do is the same, but switched round, with a lot of stuff. My ENFJ sister could be telling me some idea she has, and perhaps my initial emotional response is to be amused at how awful the idea is, and how she could even think she had any business running her brain in a direction in which she's so obviously handicapped. However, my intellectual response is more like thinking hey, so what if it's not her specialist subject, there's no harm in listening and she might have a point, sometimes the best stuff comes out of the mouths of babes as it were, so I'm listening with an open mind and taking seriously what she's saying. However she completely ignores the most important part or process, the one that truly makes the decisions, and hones in on her sense that I'm laughing inwardly at her, and reads it as contempt and then says "I know you think I know nothing about this, so you just look at me with contempt and you're not going to listen or respect anything I say". She's giving too much significance to my emotional response and not enough to my intellectual one, which she doesn't even perceive.

I think that everybody has, to some extent, an ability to notice another person's emotional responses - some better than others, of course. But the only way you can know a person's intellectual response is by asking them and then listening, and paying attention to the words they use. I go to a lot of trouble to say exactly what I mean in words, so it's very frustrating to have my true self as it were, swept aside and dismissed because my sister insists on reading between the lines, and focusing on this, what is to me, utterly irrelevant information, as it has virtually no bearing at all on my decision making and is being repressed and vetoed as we speak, just like the person who loves the stupid person is repressing and vetoing their intellectual knowledge that they're stupid the whole time they're loving them.
 

runvardh

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Damn... I always figured if I'm close enough to have to really worry an NT is pretty honest with me from the start. One of the reasons I like my room mate so much, I don't have to pry, and when something is expected of me I know it (whether I want to or not somtimes :doh:). Then again, half the complaints I see in this thread are similar to the ones I have with other people.
 

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1) . . . So the NF picks it up subtle cues, tries to describe it, then screws up as you guys are still not even aware of exactly what is going on yourselves? (Just a Q I really have no idea, so no offense please)

Everyone else seems to have the issue covered, so what I might add is that it no longer bothers me. In accepting that an NF has to be true to their nature, it can be interesting to listen to their analysis of what I must be feeling. They are rarely correct in the assumption, yet to disagree is to encourage them to argue over something that doesn't exist, and doesn't really matter. It's far less troublesome to endorse them by admitting they are probably right, and if they're still giving me that NF look of understanding, to thank them for making me realize what I am supposedly feeling. It seems to work, sometimes.

The pattern changes with INFJs. Possibly the most tenacious type of all.
 

runvardh

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Eh, if they're so annoying you don't want them near anyway, it probably works. I'd smell a rat, but then I'd leave you alone anyway; lack of honesty is likely the most effective way to indirectly tell me to fuck off.
 
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