[MBTI General] Do N and T really go together?

[juggernaut]

I think there's something stupid about people who blindly assume that logic is the only form of intelligence by which one can be measured.

I think Blank was just goofing around after all the talk about the supposedly natural pairing of N and F. It gets a tad tiresome to those of us who are innately NT and have never been any other way.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

What is described in Susan Polgar's thought processes is a deeply internalized understanding of every possible pattern, move, and relationship within the game of chess. In this way her mind is filled with these linear, logical associations. Because it is deeply internalized, she can access the information in a non-linear way. She makes her moves based on her gut which has been thoroughly trained by logic.

I think MBTI has the T function as the decision making function and the N function as the information gathering function. What is described in the Polgar example seems like the opposite process. The logical connections are the data and the intuition is the method for retrieving the data. Instead of viewing her internal data as isolated facts, it is smaller linear connections between facts.

 

[Blank]

Yeah, it's pretty obvious I was just joking. If you guys took the whole N is a planet metaphor seriously...

:dizzy:

 

[Thalassa]

Well, logic and intelligence are usually used interchangeably. It's not hard to imagine that some people think they're the same thing.

I say let them have the word "intelligence." We still have other words that can measure us in other ways. Stupid shouldn't be such an insult if a person has other positive qualities. It just tends to be, for some reason.

But many NFs are far from stupid. I know one who is a doctor. She usually tests borderline between INFJ and INFP.

Yes, I suppose they can have that word if it makes them feel better. I just don't see the need to put others down. I guess it goes both ways, though, with NFs calling NTs robots and such!

 

[Costrin]

Yeah, it's pretty obvious I was just joking. If you guys took the whole N is a planet metaphor seriously...

:dizzy:

I dunno about you, but I definitely have my own personal planet which I regularly conduct genocide on.

 

[juggernaut]

What is described in Susan Polgar's thought processes is a deeply internalized understanding of every possible pattern, move, and relationship within the game of chess. In this way her mind is filled with these linear, logical associations. Because it is deeply internalized, she can access the information in a non-linear way. She makes her moves based on her gut which has been thoroughly trained by logic.

I think MBTI has the T function as the decision making function and the N function as the information gathering function. What is described in the Polgar example seems like the opposite process. The logical connections are the data and the intuition is the method for retrieving the data. Instead of viewing her internal data as isolated facts, it is smaller linear connections between facts.

I think that's a really good description of how things work for NTs (or at least this one). I just posted about my preoccupation with systems and the relationships between/in them earlier. The thinking is much like what you're describing. The N seems to push the T from connection to connection.

 

[Athenian200]

Yeah, it's pretty obvious I was just joking. If you guys took the whole N is a planet metaphor seriously...

:dizzy:

I didn't, actually. I only responded because Costrin pointed out an obvious implication of destroying stupid people, and you complained that the stupid people were onto you. I figured it was worth pointing out that stupid people would have been able to figure it out anyway, because it really wasn't complicated.

 

[Athenian200]

But many NFs are far from stupid. I know one who is a doctor. She usually tests borderline between INFJ and INFP.

Yes, I suppose they can have that word if it makes them feel better. I just don't see the need to put others down. I guess it goes both ways, though, with NFs calling NTs robots and such!

True, many NFs are far from stupid. For that matter, so are many SPs and SJs (though I'm loathe to admit it).

The things NTs claim are the better of the purely intellectual/academic theoretical stuff like strategies and conceptualizations that might or might not relate to reality well. That's what NT intelligence is good for, it's actually less than optimal for many other situations.

So I have no qualms about giving them "intelligence."

 

[Virtual ghost]

The core of "the problem" is that we use N in a different way then you.

You use to figure emotional needs of yourself or other people.

We use it to figure out the basic principles of reality we are living in.


What means that we use N differently then you. But since it looks that there are more NFs out there, it is normal that N is asocialted with F more by a social standard.
Especially since the world is full of sensors which have a quite blured idea about the entire thing.

I made a lot of generalization but that was needed to get my point across.

 

[Athenian200]

The core of "the problem" is that we use N in a different way then you.

You use to figure emotional needs of yourself or other people.

We use it to figure out the basic principles of reality we are living in.


What means that we use N differently then you. But since it looks that there is more NFs out there, it is normal that N is asocialted with F more by a social standard.
Especially since the world is full of sensors which have a quite blured idea about the entire thing.

I made a lot of generalization but that was needed to get my point across.

That seems plausible from a certain perspective, but what's interesting is that your reasoning is based on your perceived preconceptions of groups of people, rather than the nature of N, T, F, and the way they interact on a theoretical level.

Also, you specifically referred to "me," rather than my argument. You've given a good reason why I personally should be discredited (I'm an NF and biased towards NFs, don't understand how NTs use T, and due to being an F, would be more susceptible to social standards created by Sensors).

You've soundly defeated my argument from an Ethos perspective. Being an F, I'll respect that, of course. You win.

 

[Virtual ghost]

That seems plausible from a certain perspective, but what's interesting is that your reasoning is based on your perceived preconceptions of groups of people, rather than the nature of N, T, F, and the way they interact on a theoretical level.

Also, you specifically referred to "me," rather than my argument. You've given a good reason why I personally should be discredited (I'm an NF and biased towards NFs, don't understand how NTs use T, and due to being an F, would be more susceptible to social standards created by Sensors).

You've soundly defeated my argument from an Ethos perspective. Being an F, I'll respect that, of course. You win.

Well you wrote the OP and you are all over the thread so I don't see the point in being formal .

You are right I am not talking in purely theoretical language because I think that when it comes to things that are this vague evreryone can make a theory of their own. (and they will stick to it).

But since am quite J I am more interested in how this works in the real world then arguing theoretical concepts over and over again. What has the tendecy to draw away the theoretical concepts away from the reality/point.
And from what I see the thread is showing that tendencies.

 

[Athenian200]

Well you wrote the OP and you are all over the thread so I don't see the point in being formal .

For someone who doesn't appreciate the personal, you're certainly doing your best to make this personal.

You are right I am not talking in purely theoretical language because I think that when it comes to things that are this vague evreryone can make a theory of their own. (and they will stick to it).

But since am quite J I am more interested in how this works in the real world then arguing theoretical concepts over and over again. What has the tendecy to draw away the theoretical concepts away from the reality/point.
And from what I see the thread is showing that tendencies.

Very interesting perspective, my INTJ friend. Reality clearly makes the validity or invalidity of an idea dependent upon the personal affiliations and standards of the one who formulated it. This is a brilliant insight. Oh, how could I have ever failed to see it before?*

*(Sorry if this came across as condescending, I just enjoy sarcasm.)

 

[Virtual ghost]

INTJ friend.

I was wondering if you will say that about my comment.

 

[Athenian200]

Well this more like direct then personal.

Okay. You're really going to say that dismissing my argument because of your belief that I've been influenced by social standards and can't understand how NTs work because I'm an NF is just direct, and not personal?

If that's the case, I take back what I said about logic being limited/structured and thus confining Intuition. It doesn't confine yours at all (and I mean that seriously). If it's that flexible/mutable, it's no better or worse a tool than Feeling.

I was wondering if you will sa that about my comment.

You made it too easy. It's mostly an annoyed personal comment, doesn't affect the validity of your argument either way.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Okay. You're really going to say that dismissing my argument because of your belief that I've been influenced by social standards and can't understand how NTs work because I'm an NF is just direct, and not personal?

If that's the case, I take back what I said about logic confining Intuition. It definitely isn't confining yours at all (and I mean that seriously).




You made it too easy. It's mostly an annoyed personal comment, doesn't affect the validity of your argument either way.

Sorry, I am playing games. That is why I made the post that has so SJish vibe.



Of course that it is a personal opinion. I don't see how it can be anything else.


The thing is that we trully use N in a different way. Probably we don't use it so differently as much as we use it for different things.
What I should have said in my first post here is that I am not sure how can N and F go well togather. But it is obvious that they do.
All of my threads about NFs actually have this component in them.


I am afraid we are looking for an insight in the cards of the other side here.
But this will probably never happen fully exactly because our points of view are subjective.

 

[Athenian200]

Sorry, I am playing games. That is why I made the post that has so SJish vibe.

LOL. I didn't know NTs liked to play games with people. That's interesting.

Of course that it is a personal opinion. I don't see how it can be anything else.

Me neither. That's why I was confused at first.

The thing is that we trully use N in a different way. Probably we don't use it so differently as much as we use it for different things.
What I should have said in my first post here is that I am not sure how can N and F go well togather. But it is obvious that they do.
All of my threads about NFs actually have this component in them.

They use it to supplement logical judgments instead of feeling judgments, pretty much. But it's actually apparent from the little game you played that logic doesn't immediately prune your intuition in your case, and you actually can play around with illogical ideas.

I am afraid we are looking for an insight in the cards of the other side here.
But this will probably never happen fully exactly because our points of view are subjective.

Yes, I think they are. Personally, I think MBTI itself is used in a largely subjective way and open to experience and interpretation. I just enjoy trying to understand the archetypes involved, and why it appeals to people.

 

[Fluffywolf]

LOL. I didn't know NTs liked to play games with people. That's interesting.

It's our main method of socializing. We do it all the time.

 

[entropie]

LOL. I didn't know NTs liked to play games with people. That's interesting.

Now that you know, dont get in my way !

 

[jenocyde]

that was actually what I was getting at above ("the adverse effects of the NT combination turn out to be better than the synergic effects of the NF combination"), only you were too busy dismissing me out of hand to notice. hooray for you! :rolli:

I was not busy dismissing you - when I said that was irrelevant and subjective, I was referring to this specific quote:

Here I am thinking specifically of the ENTPs vs. ENFPs: Ne-users can really be a strain, talking too much and trusting blindly in their whim and spontaneous associations. With Ti, Ne is disciplined whereas with Fi, Ne is encouraged, regardless of the actual worth of the Ne.

I was not referring to your entire post, which I thought I made clear when I quoted you the first time.

 

[velocity]

to the op:
not as much as u and i.