[MBTI General] Do N and T really go together?

[jenocyde]

You said:

I just think "Thinking" is perhaps inherently less holistic maybe....if that makes sense.

So, I said:

I think that if people are saying that N and F are "feminine traits" and S and T are "masculine traits", then NT or SF should be more balanced, not less balanced - like yin and yang...

And thinking is not less holistic. Thinking and feeling is what makes you whole in the first place.

Then you:

Uh?

What ever do you mean by "whole" and how is that relevant?

Can you explain the relevance? I wasn't the one who brought it up...

 

[entropie]

I found something intresting here:

Quoted from: Transcendence Through Intuitive*Thinking

Real intuition comes from beyond. Whatever determines your current realm, your current body of assumptions and programming — intuition originates from beyond that. If you are a product of the past, intuition is a feedback flow from the future. If you are the lower self, intuition comes from the higher self. If you are operating from the five senses, intuition comes through the sixth. So it is an influence that comes from beyond, that beckons you beyond, versus influences that come from the lower self, the collective physical reality, and genetic programming that solicit you into rationalizing away the new for being unsupported by the old. Intuition is your internal compass magnetized to absolute truth, that if followed takes you through ever greater levels of objectivity and thus through ever more advanced realms of existence. It is the thread that leads you out from the maze of illusions, it is the heart of your soul, the voice of your spirit, and it only speaks as clearly as you have ears to hear and the mind to listen.

With intuitive thinking, intuition is the guiding hand of logic. Logic alone is incapable of determining the absolute value of anything because it deals in binaries and the relation between them: premise versus conclusion, subject versus object, congruent versus divergent, rational versus irrational, or cause versus effect. But what decides the premise? What determines the first cause? Who decides what is rational? What determines objective truth? Not the intellect; it only acknowledges and obeys them after they have already come into existence. Intellect takes what it is given and follows through with it. In the absence of intuition, it takes orders from group consensus or physical signals, hence the “nature versus nurture” debate, which is another binary fallacy that fails to include the transjective possibility of spiritual factors. Logic without intuition puts intellect in the business of reinforcing biases rather than uprooting them.

On the other hand, intuition without logic leads to vague impressions that never become accurate expressions or communicable understanding. The intellect is also necessary to avoid confusing intuition with emotionalism; the latter being subjective, its commands will have holes, self-contradictions, discoverable motives that are less than reasonable, and consequences that you can already foresee would be unpleasant. As mentioned, those who discard the intellect have no means to distinguish between the two. They get caught up in a self-made world of illusion that is wholly at odds with the objective reality they reside within.

 

[Moiety]

You said:



So, I said:



Then you:



Can you explain the relevance? I wasn't the one who brought it up...

You said "then NT or SF should be more balanced, not less balanced - like yin and yang..." when I said nothing about balance.

In fact, yes, in theory NT and SF would be more balanced. But I wasn't saying being more holistic made you any better, more balanced or more whole.

 

[jenocyde]

I found something intresting here:

You used amazing intuition in finding this logical piece.

 

[entropie]

Thats nearly exactly my thoughts. F backuped with N is more likely to dwelve into a world of their own. While T backup with N is more likely to "work properly" given the things you want to accomplish.

Therefore in the end, its even for F backupped by N important to filter it through T glasses. Otherwise the whole thing makes no sense or brings you to the asylum

 

[jenocyde]

You said "then NT or SF should be more balanced, not less balanced - like yin and yang..." when I said nothing about balance.

In fact, yes, in theory NT and SF would be more balanced. But I wasn't saying being more holistic made you any better, more balanced or whole.

You are missing the point entirely. I never mentioned better, I was talking about whole. You said thinking is less whole (than feeling, was the implication). I pointed out that you need both to be whole. And that having both (which we ALL have) makes you balanced. What's with the bickering?

 

[Moiety]

Lol, what's with the ego stroking and the slight hint of defensiveness? I thought you guys needed no "proof" to know NT means perfection.

 

[Moiety]

You are missing the point entirely. I never mentioned better, I was talking about whole. You said thinking is less whole (than feeling, was the implication). I pointed out that you need both to be whole. And that having both (which we ALL have) makes you balanced. What's with the bickering?

That's what you got completely wrong. I meant no such thing. Nor do I see how it could have been interpret it that way.


Unless perhaps you are using F to write between the lines

I said "natural partners" because they are more similar. Maybe that's the source of the confusion.Fair enough.My bad, considering the context.

 

[jenocyde]

FFS - did you not just say that thinking is less holistic? What the hell do you think holistic means???

Oh, forget it. I don't care.

 

[Moiety]

FFS - did you not just say that thinking is less holistic? What the hell do you think holistic means???

Oh, forget it. I don't care.

Yeah, sensotard moment on my part. Used to using the word in another context and in another language.


But don't get too worked up about it. You are "more whole" then that. Here, have a joint.

 

[JocktheMotie]

Oh, NFs think NTs are broken and unnatural. Didn't see that one coming, at all.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

I thought this was common knowledge. N and T don't naturally go together, neither do N and J. Doesn't mean they don't work well together, because they do.

Oh, NFs think NTs are broken and unnatural. Didn't see that one coming, at all.

Not at all

I'm trying to figure out where this discussion got twisted.

 

[jenocyde]

Yeah, sensotard moment on my part. Used to using the word in another context and in another language.


But don't get too worked up about it. You are "more whole" then that. Here, have a joint.

Who said I was worked up?

but I'll take the joint, though...

 

[Moiety]

Who said I was worked up?

but I'll take the joint, though...

Well, used to see cursing and facepalmz has having a meaning of some sort. But I also keep forgetting ENTPs don't get worked up.


(Pfffft. Yeah right!)



And...here...behold Bobbus Supremus

 

[Fluffywolf]

The NT way is the only way.

*RA-TA-TA-TA-TA*

On a more serious note, they go very well together. Most of the times they go so well together that no other type is capable of following the wellness and togetherness of N and T, and then they go all 'Immmmmmmmmpossible!' on the togetherness and wellness of N and T.

Impossible!

 

[Kalach]

Well... no. Of course not. But it is more subjective than, say, sensing. I'm saying that the whole process of creativity, curiosity, imagination... there's something about it that seems to involve a certain kind of irrationality, a kind of passion/obsessiveness. Not the kind of sensitivity or passion you see in feelings. But it seems like NTs try to eliminate those elements and reduce the ideas entirely into simple, linear, impersonal logic.

Your Ni haz a flava: Fe. (The auxiliary gives form to the dominant.)

Automatic soul. It's full of pictures and tones and generative images and people. (I assume.)

My Ni is Te-flavoured and automatically soulless because Te is about things and processes.

That is, it's soulless if the tertiary is ignored. Which it can't be. I am a real boy.

As for being linear... it's not. It's connection between this truth and that. It's as linear as the connection between this feeling and that. That's true even if one is an NT stuck with Ti. (I believe.)


So sez I. And here endeth the manifesto. I must change my pants.

 

[juggernaut]

I thought this was common knowledge. N and T don't naturally go together, neither do N and J. Doesn't mean they don't work well together, because they do.

They don't?

*off to have an identity crisis now...*

 

[Athenian200]

I understand wherre Athenian200 is comming from.

Studies show, that even though the MBTI prides itself on measuring four distinct traits, N and P turn out to be positively correlated. The more intuitarded you are, the more percieving you will also be.*

(* Now how does this relate to dominant intuitives whom nobody would classify as P such as retentive INTJs? - Well the INTJ is in fact able to see many points of view, only they see them inside themselves, in their internal mind's eye. This is what Jung meant when he classified INTJ as a subjective/irrational type.)

In the same way, while the ST/SF split is close to 50/50, the NF/NT split is more like 66/33. So indeed, we have reason to believe that N has some sort of affinity with F.

I do agree with the part about N and P, actually. I might be able to make N and J work together, but there's definitely conflict there.

Athenian200 is also right in saying that T is restricting N: Lots of potential whims will automatically be filtered from conciousness of the NT. Sloganistically speaking, T forces thought into certain patterns whereas F only forces N out of certain thought-trails, namely the ones that are uncomfortable to the F and/or his established values. (INTJs do this as well, but they are, after all closet NFs.)

Yes, that's what I was thinking.
---

Though Athenian200, even though you could argue that from an indoling point of view N and T do not naturally go together, don't you think that sometimes, the adverse effects of the NT combination turn out to be better than the synergic effects of the NF combination? - Here I am thinking specifically of the ENTPs vs. ENFPs: Ne-users can really be a strain, talking too much and trusting blindly in their whim and spontaneous associations. With Ti, Ne is disciplined whereas with Fi, Ne is encouraged, regardless of the actual worth of the Ne.

Aha, yes. In a sense, T disciplines N, forces it to be "productive" or something. A person with N and T has a more balanced mind because they force themselves to judge all their ideas according to a simple, impersonal system. They might be more intelligent because of how their creative side responds to being trapped within the simple, linear awareness of Thinking.

 

[Athenian200]

Your Ni haz a flava: Fe. (The auxiliary gives form to the dominant.)

Automatic soul. It's full of pictures and tones and generative images and people. (I assume.)

That's too generous, actually. Etiquette and social hierarchy would be a closer description of what my Fe is looking at. Which of course means... yeah, I'm stuck subjecting everything to rules as well.

My Ni is Te-flavoured and automatically soulless because Te is about things and processes.

That is, it's soulless if the tertiary is ignored. Which it can't be. I am a real boy.

As for being linear... it's not. It's connection between this truth and that. It's as linear as the connection between this feeling and that. That's true even if one is an NT stuck with Ti. (I believe.)

This isn't about being soulless. It's more about the way logic force-fits intuition into a simple, linear frame. Although I suppose the same argument could be made about N and J as well.

Oh, NFs think NTs are broken and unnatural. Didn't see that one coming, at all.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make you feel broken and unnatural with my idea. I was merely trying to point out how they seem to originate from different places in the mind (and thus are based on conflicting methodologies about how reality should be processed), and then are forced to work together. The crossover might even result in a more disciplined, useful imagination. Hence NT intelligence... the result of the constant mental challenge of trying to reconcile these two processes.

 

[Qre:us]

I've actually been wondering for a while now. It seems like ST and NF make sense, but NT and SF don't.

An ST uses specific, sensed details, and reasons in a linear, impersonal fashion. Basically, the calculator/bean-counter type. I can see those two going together well.

An NF uses their imagination and instinct to get an idea of the "essence" of things, and then weighs this according to their subjective sense of value. These two also go well together.

An NT also uses their imagination and instinct to get an idea of the "essence" of things, and then... reasons in a linear, impersonal fashion?

Intuition is a highly unconscious, somewhat subjective process. It relies on a kind of vague instinct, a subjective perception that can't be expressed literally. So why, then, would you go ahead and stuff all of that into a simplistic, impersonal box that's better suited to simple details? You're perceiving reality subjectively, and then trying to turn around and throw away all of the instinct and irrational process that gave rise to the idea in the first place, to clean it up and push it through a simplistic, linear, impersonal process that can't possibly capture much of what was perceived.

It's almost like it turns against itself halfway through the process in a half-hearted effort to make an appeal that will be listened to by "bean-counter" types.

So, what is an NT, really? Is it an Intuitive that was forced to discipline their imagination into working with logic? Is it a conflicted person who tried to set up a strange compromise between the rational and irrational parts of their mind? Is it someone who wants to hide/destroy their own sensitivity for some reason?
I know that if you're an NT, you might very well understand how it is they go together, and may even think that N and F don't go well together. I'm just curious as to why those processes should work together, and how they fit together for you.

I have the song from Grease in my head: we go together like....rama lama lama ke ding a de dinga a dong...

Oh, and NT - non-linear logic? Global picture rather than the actual steps, still within the model of logical systems?