[ENTP] The role of argumentation in ENTPs

[substitute]

Y'know, I just realized what forum this thread is on and I suddenly feel like I'm trespassing, but to the extent you might want to talk about it, my thing with that is this: I watch the people around me and listen to them all the time. I am never unaware of people, which is why it wears me out to be around them. After awhile, without anyone saying anything, I know who's full of it and who knows where the staircase is.

Granted, NF's and especially INFP's (if that's where you lean? I dunno) can be very good at summing up people. But so am I - I'm very good at knowing what a person thinks of me and why, and where they're mistaken. If I know I'm right, but that the person doesn't trust me, then the foundation part of that staircase isn't going to be logic based at all. It'll be the part where I convince them that, despite what they might think of me, I have a point if they just bear with me for a minute, give me the benefit of the doubt and let me explain.

Just like you're good at knowing people, but can still sometimes be wrong cos everyone's fallible, I'm good at knowing how people perceive things, including me, though I can sometimes be wrong as to the best way to persuade them that they're wrong, if I believe they are. And some people, well, there doesn't seem to be a way to convince them they're wrong about you, once they take a disliking to you.

Also, it's kinda alien to me, the idea of someone being unwilling to climb the stairs, to extend the analogy to breaking point! I mean, I'll always climb any staircase, what's to lose? If it turns out to be BS at the top, what've I lost? Not a lot really, but I could still extract a lesson from the experience. My curiosity and openness gets the better of me pretty much every time, I know if I turn someone away I'll be wondering for ages and kicking myself, thinking, you know, suppose he was a schmuck but still had a point and my prejudice against him made me miss out on learning something? If I don't like what I see, I can always climb back down again and put it down to experience, but I might as well at least have a look. And I guess that's a symptom of just how open my views are to questioning or change - no matter what I think, I'm open to the idea that I'm wrong, and I find it hard to understand when people are not.

 

[ajblaise]

Just seeing the words 'argumentation' and 'ENTP' together is annoying me.

 

[sculpting]

Hmmmm, Interesting thread….

I lack the intellectual capability to multi-quote so I thought I’d just add a few thoughts as a list.

1. I had no idea about the correlation between vulnerability and willingness to engage in the verbal sparring, however retrospectively this makes tons of sense. I meet mountains of ENTPs in my job. When I first meet them they are quiet and observant, then at some point become funny and witty, then morph to being willing to engage in intellectual debates. The more confident they are, the quicker they seem to make the progression. One guy-who I adore made that progression in a single day whereas others like ENTP#1-have never engaged in any form of debate with me at all. For him I would push in that direction about a topic and it would be deflected into witty sexual innuendos or stone walled. It was very disjointed honestly and I kept feeling like the train was bouncing off the track.

2. I think the one-upmanship is less about winning/conquering in a dominant ENTJ manner and more like winning in a “puppies wrestling on the living room carpet” manner. I took Brazilian ju-jitsu for awhile and there is nothing more fun than flipping your partner around and making them submit, then you start from scratch and go again to see who wins the next time. You don’t keep track, you are just playing, roughly, but playing all the same.

3. Why should NFs (or any other type for that matter) feel like they can comment on why an ENTP (or any other type) does stuff?

First, it gives you guys an external, albeit subjective view to what others perceive. You get to see what the world thinks of you, even if it stings a bit. It’s what it looks like you are doing from the outside. You have to correct us when we are wrong which helps us understand you better and corrects our misconceptions.

Second, for me, I am trying to teach Fi to be better behaved and more rational. It subconsciously makes assumptions, perceptions and judgments, that can be wildly incorrect and presumptuous, as it is a bit juvenile. By presenting those perceptions for criticism, I feed back that data and make it a more refined tool, and appreciate its weaknesses more fully.

Right now I have been having fun watching INTJs and ENTPs but suddenly the INTPs and ISFPs are gaining much appeal…

 

[Riva]

ENTP have trouble being vulnerable. Really, truly vulnerable. They also have trouble expressing tenderness. Consequently, they must relate in ways that avoid these two issues.

The ability to argue without rancor is an implied intimacy. So, in a way, if an ENTP can argue with you, it is a sign of closeness, provided there is no meanness, of course.

they can really fake it can't they? really good at that. but not for long.

 

[Winds of Thor]

What role does argumentation play with ENTPs? Digesthissickness had a really neat quote that has me thinking on the topic of argumentation, what it means for different people, and its potential roles in a relationship:

To some extent I understand this. Argumentation brings things to the surface, and resolving an area of conflict is extremely gratifying. Also, banter and play verbal sparring can be fun as well, but I draw the line when I notice my punches are starting to land a bit too hard.

Steer it with a smile, ...if they catch it and re-engage, fine. If they don't, pause. The J engages in extreme situations...allowing the sense to see it's not heading in a good direction.

So in what ways do ENTPs argue to try and bond with someone? What goes through your mind as you enter your banter or your fight? Do you enjoy it? When does it quit being enjoyable and become serious or draining?

It's more like a quick-wit fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants jab at engaging tactical, intuitive exchange...it's like airhockey...to see who's wittier. I love playing with ENTJs because they can't be hurt and you can really get rough, gloves-off with them!...Knowing no one is really taking anything personal, so it's fun

It quits becoming enjoyable when the other person clearly starts really taking it personally. Sometimes this can be steered around with a smile whence playing the game.

ENTPs in particular interest me because of the playful, almost detached enthusiasm they can sometimes argue with others.

Yeah..you're right on this point...this makes it non-personal...the enthusiasm drives...along with the pragmatism to start new things...drives the game...it is seen as objective whence others perhaps see it as subjective and personal. This isn't cold, though, although it may appear so on the surface...because it is an extension of bonding to the other person...(I know...this is complex)..

Also, on a personal real life level, because I've noticed a couple of times they'll keep on amping up the insults until they finally go too far. Like, almost as if it's not real until they do some damage...

That's Right babay! It's Total, Systematic, UNBRIDLED ANNIHILATION!!! Hehe..no well, it could be, yes (because we can make a deal with our conscience to justify doing about anything)
But playfully..it's almost like, "Can this other person see that what I'm really doing is attempting a bond?" It's mind-bonding coupled with one-upmanship in the context of sport..it's a unique paradigm in that NTs find a certain satisfaction in intuitive mind-connecting with others using less than enough concrete information to bridge ideas...leaving the other to intuit the point...it's like mental ping-pong..and IT IS FUN! It's a sort of high-level intellectual game, lots of quirks, verbal spins and twists..very quickly....

My experience is ENTJs pick up on it quickly if they're not too focused on making some other decision...I suspect INFJs 'get it'...

S's are mostly lost and speak things like we're space aliens or something (whatever they think is fine with me) or out of line with social convention. What's interesting is they don't run into us very often...(2-3% of the population) so when they do, and witness our character, they find it odd...but what's essential would be for them to wrap their mind around the fact that we are legitimate...Just because something is rare doesn't make it illegitimate...

Thanks

 

[Winds of Thor]

they can really fake it can't they? really good at that. but not for long.

Yes, and No. I suppose that view is in the context of 'faking'...but sincerely, it is not this.

The architecture of attitude and complexity of this game makes it a legitimate, natural functioning..

I mean, there is no attempt or intent.

Ss may perhaps have talent in 'faking'...and it could be learned, yes, but this is not the motivational path.

 

[substitute]

First, it gives you guys an external, albeit subjective view to what others perceive. You get to see what the world thinks of you, even if it stings a bit. It’s what it looks like you are doing from the outside. You have to correct us when we are wrong which helps us understand you better and corrects our misconceptions.

Agreed, very constructive and essential and what I ideally seek out most of the time. However, doesn't seem to work that way quite often.

It's all very well to say that I (hypothetical "I") should be open to hearing how I come across to other people, but the other side of the coin is that those other people ought to be open to the idea that they might have me wrong; open to listening to my side of the story, and not just use the exercise as an excuse to rant and put me down and get revenge for all the perceived slights they believe they've had at my hands.

 

[Winds of Thor]

Hmmmm, Interesting thread….



....Right now I have been having fun watching INTJs and ENTPs but suddenly the INTPs and ISFPs are gaining much appeal…

Hey! Come back over here!! What are doing going over there... What about loyalty to the ENTP?

*Typejumping Rascal* :steam:

 

[Winds of Thor]

... and not just use the exercise as an excuse to rant and put me down and get revenge for all the perceived slights they believe they've had at my hands.

Haha Yeah! I know exactly...when they think they've got ya...but don't have the slightest how you processed their attempt...

(*Don't appreciate morons*)

 

[Winds of Thor]

And some people, well, there doesn't seem to be a way to convince them they're wrong about you, once they take a disliking to you.

If through someone else whom they have confidence in..If the 3rd person shows or describes your 'colors' in a way the 2nd person can understand, this is possible..

Informing by proxy.

 

[Winds of Thor]

no, read the title. it's about the 'why' behind it, why we do it. it has nothing to do with how fantastically you think you slice through someone's arguments.

and, you don't have any experience with any of that.



is that how you usually 'win' your arguments? because if an ENTP left after that, it's because it got too ridiculous and became a waste of time.

Whew! Anybody got a fire extinguisher?...a bucket of cold water maybe?

 

[Winds of Thor]

Originally Posted by Peguy
This thread is about the argumentative nature of ENTPs, and I'm adding my own thoughts on the issue based upon my own experiences with this aspect of the ENTP personality.

no, read the title. it's about the 'why' behind it, why we do it. it has nothing to do with how fantastically you think you slice through someone's arguments.

and, you don't have any experience with any of that.

Originally Posted by Peguy
My aren't we sensitive? Even after I clearly stated that overall I love ENTPs and I'm not saying ENTPs are dumbasses.

is that how you usually 'win' your arguments? because if an ENTP left

Whew~ Anybody gotta fire extinguisher?...bucket of cold water maybe?

 

[Winds of Thor]

I don't feel anything when I debate - I just collect information. It's just exploration.

I get to see what makes someone tick, how they process information and how they apply that information. And I also get to learn something more about an actual topic. Anyone who can teach me something is regarded very highly in my eyes. After arguing, I can feel tremendously close to someone - sometimes it's almost the same feeling you have after sex.

It stops being enjoyable when someone takes an issue personally and gets upset, or refuses to listen to another point of view. If we find ourselves heated and repeating statements over again - it's clearly over.

Jenocyde you're totally, like armchair hehe..

 

[Winds of Thor]

Yeah yeah I know, cause NTs deal with facts while us NFs are emotional and deal with values.

Ss deal and work with the facts...NTs deal with all of everything...just perhaps not as practiced with F as NFs.

 

[Typology]

Just seeing the words 'argumentation' and 'ENTP' together is annoying me.

 

[Riva]

ENTP have trouble being vulnerable. Really, truly vulnerable. They also have trouble expressing tenderness. Consequently, they must relate in ways that avoid these two issues.

The ability to argue without rancor is an implied intimacy. So, in a way, if an ENTP can argue with you, it is a sign of closeness, provided there is no meanness, of course.

that you are right. ENTPs tend to argue with people they are close to, not acquaintances.

 

[Udog]

Just seeing the words 'argumentation' and 'ENTP' together is annoying me.

Why?

 

[entropie]

I never thought about the concept of me being possibly argumentative until I learnt about MBTI. Now I have looked back into my past and I definitly see that I have a constant need to bring into boring discussions, shocking new connections or to speak about the things noone dares to speak about. I never considered that as being argumentative though, cause I just try to keep a discussion going and dont want to convince every participant of my opinion.

But then after a while I came to think about my past and present relationships. And though I have grown more routinized nowadays in dealing with bad vibes you get from people, I must admit I wasnt that always. In fact I caused alot of trouble to close friends and in relationships, which came most of the time out of the nowhere.

I gave it as I said, some thought and I have no logical or rational explanation for this. I nowadays try to ignore my own feelings more; in a situation that is a possible candidate for a huge upcoming fistfight, I try to swallow things that poop into my mind and that would be useful to sabotage my relationship.

I dont know if thats healthy or the ultimative way to deal with it, but the problem is basically I havent identified the source of the problem yet, therefore I cant cure it any other way. I try to filter things now more, instead of randomly speaking what poops into the mind and to think about them in private + carefully outweigh, if they are that dangerous to myself, as I firstly felt about them. Given some time and I forget most of the things, what is relieving.

If that all doesnt help the last refuge I take is to exhaust myself with work, hobbies or books. After that you are grateful to spent some time with friends or your loved one, in a situation where you dont need to think nomore.

 

[Qre:us]

So in what ways do ENTPs argue to try and bond with someone? What goes through your mind as you enter your banter or your fight? Do you enjoy it? When does it quit being enjoyable and become serious or draining?

Depends on the situation. If I'm wanting to hash out an idea, then, it's just a spit-fire exchange of ideas for ideas, counter for counter...then, I could care less who's at the other end of the debate. Prince or pauper. It's a complete Ne+Ti zone (with a healthy dose of Si). I mostly do this on online forums where the primary interest for me ARE the discussions/ideas (and quite secondary, the 'people' behind the avatar and made-up usernames). Thus, my main goal is to flesh out my idea by giving a jump-off point, and waiting for the 'attacks'/counters. I am committed to fully understanding the idea, and as such, will hold steady to the 'side', in a way, that I'm asking for holes to be shot through as I'm a literal sitting duck. I'm literally swimming in ideas/thoughts then. And, as such, I can't limit it to those I'm close to/intimate with...because: 1) I must utilize F, which sidetracks me, 2) limited number of people in my life, hence, limiting the points of views, I'll be exposing my ideas to, as well, the repetition of sources, 3) assumption that they will know of topic, thus, limits the topics I would then have up for discussion.

For those I'm closest to, it will depend on their personality. If they're, like my ESFJ and my xSxx best friends, I stay away from debate with them, as history has shown that they will take it personally (within 17minutes and 29 seconds into it). With my boyfriend, I love debating, but the 'edge' is taken off because I sometimes sidetrack myself in Fe-goodness, and give flirting one-liners and such back. Then, it's playful and gooey goodness.

For my closest friends, the intimacy in debate only happens with certain topics, topics that are philosophical and in the inter-relationship category. Like, "why do people want to marry?" "what is the motivation for people wanting to have children?"and other such things, where, there's a chance for me to relate much in-depth personal anecdotes about self (and as they understand/know me personally, it's easier to have these discussions with them)....and these are the debates I have most, and engage quite willingly, in terms of having an intimate debate with the ones I love. And, it's more of a discussion than a counter point-by-point, but more holistic in nature. And, yes, the ESFJ and xSxx engage in these with me. Minus tears. These are more Ne+Fe (with support by Ti, as needed).

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But...what do I know? I don't argue/debate. EVER!

 

[substitute]

yeah, and the point at which it becomes draining is when the other person thinks I'm making a personal attack on them and starts a) "defending" themselves against it and b) attacking back in a personal way and c) demanding that I "justify" what I say. When voices start getting raised and there's actual negative feeling there, that's when I wish I'd never trusted this person with my thoughts in the first place and am making mental notes not to do so again.

I'm not saying I never take things personally, but I honestly think that even when I do, I still try to respond objectively. An example of the difference I mean might be something like... well suppose I say "but that's stupid!" and the person I said it to thinks I mean THEY are stupid, when I'm just talking about the point they made, saying it's inconsistent with what they said before or what we both know or something like that. The other person thinks I'm being disrespectful of them but I don't feel that way at all, I'm just thinking well duh, yeah you just said something that I can't help thinking is a bit crap, but you know, if you can explain why it's not then I'm listening. And why would I think someone saying something stupid made them a stupid/crap person? Fuck, everyone says stupid things sometimes - it's because you're not stupid that I'm assuming that when this happens with you, you want it to be pointed out so you can correct it. If I thought you were stupid and didn't respect you then I wouldn't bother, cos I wouldn't credit you with either the intelligence to understand, the humility to be open to the idea of your being mistaken, or the integrity to revise your opinion in light of new data.

Yeah, that's where it all starts to go wrong, when they take things personally.

An example of what I mean about me doing something different with that would be... well, there isn't really anything you can say about my idea itself that will offend me or make me take it personally, but if you do make a personal remark, such as "well that's about typical of YOU, I would expect YOU to think something like that" or somesuch, then I don't so much feel upset as much as just a sort of cross between curiosity and frustration. I might instantly see what they mean - that they've got my point wrong and that the fact that they expect it (this point that I wasnt making) of me, shows they've got me wrong too, quite drastically. So I want to try to address both of those things, to find out just in what way they've taken what I said, explain how and why it's inaccurate, and how that has implications for the whole way that they see me as a person. But it's not about wanting to be loved or liked or winning or anything like that. It's about wanting things to be clear and honest, because I honestly don't mind not being liked or agreed with - as long as what's not being liked or agreed with is who I REALLY am and what I REALLY said, and not an erroneous perception of the two.

Sorry I know I coulda explained all that better, but it's quite hard to put into words cos I wonder why anyone would need me to lol